I am not sure if you meant Ethervapes, but if you did, i want to re-emphasize that from the vendors listed in the first page of this thread, MOV has also taken these steps, in January of this year. They are now a member of AEMSA and every single liquid ( finished product ) in their line-up has been tested by an independent lab.
I don't mean to cast any doubts on the safety protocol of the other vendors mentioned on this thread, by mentioning MOV by name, and i am not implying that the product of other vendors talked about on this site is less safe. I am sure that there are other vendors who have taken these steps in the past, and i know of another one that is taking steps currently.
Not every vendor is as established as MOV, and can afford to take all the steps necessary to be AEMSA certified, but i plan to find out as much as i can about their safety protocol. I have already written emails to some of them, and will be sending emails to more, asking if their product is diacetyl and diketone free, and if so, do they test the finished product at an independent lab themselves, or if they are relying on what their suppliers claim.
All i need is transparency and honesty from vendors.
Emphasis mine.
Regardless of who posts what test results, if it's
only diacetyl being tested for, we're still missing several other chemicals that may pose a huge problem down the line. Granted, we
know diacetyl is bad, and the fact vendors are taking steps (without outright outing them here, the one Russ mentioned posted test results publicly on their facebook page today; well, 4 hours ago, to be exact) to ensure that it isn't in their e-liquids, which is a
great start, but we, as vapers really ought to be focusing on the whole issue of
diketones as a whole before we just stop at, "Well, the lab tests say there's no diacetyl, let's vape it all up!"
....I guess I'll just come out and say it:
ALL Diketones (including diacetyl, which is just one of them) are unsafe to vape. Period. 
Unless these tests are focusing on diketones as a whole, rather than just diacetyl by itself, we'll know which chemicals a given e-liquid
doesn't have, but what about the remaining ones that
weren't tested for? Are those absent, or is the replacement flavoring (assuming a flavoring is changed as a result of finding diacetyl in a given liquid) using a substitute diketone to achieve equivalent or similar results?
There have been several vendors I've bought single orders from and never re-ordered because there was a distinct buttery, slippery, kinda funny feel to the TH of the e-juice. Some of these vendors even advertised "all-natural" or similar. Others were vendors I regularly ordered e-liquid from, but would sometimes branch out and try a different flavor only to find it....well, almost alien in texture, if that makes any sense.
It's my own fault for not asking, I'll admit that. I've known it was an issue with e-liquids since 2011, not saying that's when it was discovered, just that I became aware of it around then. I was additionally a beta-tester for a specific vendor; this vendor was very concerned about the possibility of any of the diketones being used in e-liquid; but again, I never asked for test results. I figured, "well, since I'm vaping
tobacco flavors (synthetic), I should be fine." Later, I went on to find out that Tobacco Absolute is extracted with hexane.
Now, I have a very loose understanding of chemistry. I'm an armchair-chemist at best, so I only know what I know and realize that the more I learn, the less I know.
I did know that hexane was used in several products I am aware of that I didn't want to be inhaling for any reason. Was there any sort of remaining residue? I don't know; nobody ever provided me a certificate to test if hexane, because I
didn't ever bother to ask. (double
)
Now, the reason I bring all of this up now, is because the diketone 'issue' (the issue is, rather, that it should
never been put into e-liquids in the first place) has focused solely on diacetyl, not on the entire family of chemicals (which the vendor I mentioned I beta-tested for made me aware of) which are hazardous to vape. I've seen "diacetyl-free" this and that posted on FA/PA/various other flavoring sources, but even
if that holds true, what about the rest of the diketones?
In regards to diketones and NETs..... it really has to be said; they may be present, or they may not be there at all; just like any e-liquid, it depends on how they were flavored during the casing, what added flavors go into the blends, ect- just like any other e-liquid.
At this point, I'm highly considering just narrowing my consumption down to single varietals or Va/Per/Oriental-style blends until I see whats going on with my other favorites (I have more favorite liquids than I have money to actually stock them all, and I vape like a freight train) in relation to diketones.
I don't know if this is why I am more apt to vape single varietals in the first place, or whether it's why I enjoy them more; truth be told, I'll probably never know the answer to that question. I'm the type of guy who can vape straight Latakia all day long and still taste it at the end of the day. However, everybody is different. We all perceive things differently; we all taste things differently; we all have different favorites.
I personally love Turkish and Perique. Your tastes may vary, and likely do. I mix things at random just because I want to see what they taste like together.
It's my daily, "Could I mix this, and this, and actually want to vape the end result all day long"? experiment.
Let me make this very clear:
I'm not trying to bash any company or any vendor whatsoever, or scare people away from their favorite e-liquids, at all.
For me, personally...it's just the prospect of developing popcorn lung, from
any form of exposure.... well, I would go back to snus'ing if I couldn't verify what the deal was.
At least I'm not
inhaling snus, and even if they're flavored with freaky diketones of any sort, that greatly reduces any potential harm from them; they are, after all, food additives.
But, you know, the idea of a cola-flavored snus does sound a little bit....strange....but it exists. I don't think I would ever vape a Dr. Pepper or Coke-flavored e-liquid.
...unbeknownst to me, both probably are being sold, and there's probably several people vaping the lot of them as ADVs.
I think my post is long enough, and I've said what I had to say, but for those of you who don't want to read a book chapter.... here's the...
TLDR:
We need to focus on Diketones as a whole, not just diacetyl. ALL of the diketones are a HUGE problem if we vape them.
(I thought up more to say)Now, if you're curious as to why I suddenly got infected with the "diketones are evil" bug; I've always felt this way, but listening to Russ somehow triggered a memory block that had remained dormant for quite some time, but looking past all of the negative things (believe you me, I've heard
much, much worse from people) on the show, there is a very good point mentioned: if the media decided to pounce on the "Diketone Disaster", you can bet the
Federal
Death
Administration would use that as hefty ammunition to impose extremely heavy regulations and/or bans.
Essentially, we'd all be forced to home-brew NETs. You all know what the alternative would be to that, but I would fall back on snus as an alternative, never analogs.
All that said, what if they took it a step further and started to ban PG sales? VG and nicotine sales?
We need to cut the heads off the hydra before they grow back, and quickly.
I remember seeing a study that said something along the lines of this; that e-cigarettes "may be less harmful than smoking." "
may." I think this would switch very quickly to "are practically harmless in comparison to smoking" when you cut any potentially dangerous flavors out of the mix. This will be additional ammunition to use to counter any such bans or restrictions on vaping.
Just my
, now let's get back to hardware and juice discussion.
(I tried to register for Soundcloud, FWIW, but it accused me of being a bot and told me I couldn't.
)
MAJOR EDIT: I was about....I don't know....15 pages back when I quoted and wrote what I wrote. So, belated apologies, I suppose?
papabogart said:
Folks, I, for one, would really appreciate it if you would take this "safety/disclosure" discussion to one of the forums specifically dedicated to such discussion.
Gotcha. I'll take it to the vendors directly if I have any further concerns. We may need to make a thread in General about this, because I have a feeling it's going to blow up into a big issue. I'm actually more than a little bit concerned about it, but I've blabbered enough about it in this thread. As I said at the end of my gargantuan post.... back to hardware and juice discussion.
Mazinny said:
I was the one who started this i suppose, by trying to give kudos to MOV, which is one of the vendors discussed on this thread. Then it went off to Ether Vapes and ... It did go off in a more general direction of safety in e-liquids. I apologize for my role in this. I might be more concerned about this issue than others, and i wanted to share with people in one of the threads i read every day, but might have gone too far i suppose.
But honestly, is the issue any less relevant to the thread topic than post after post about the intricacies and details of the Magma and other drippers for example. These are posts that i have no interest in, but just ignore and go on to the next post.
I do understand your concern though, and i will no longer post about the topic here.
I actually think that this gives MOV and EtherVapes some additional credibility in the NETizen community.
The fact that a vendor took it upon themselves to pay for the testing of their liquids, and then reformulate them to ensure the safety of their consumers? That's friggin' awesome. I mean...what else can I say? It makes me feel great to order from a company that takes such initiative. I can't/won't reword this: it gives me warm fuzzies to think about a vendor, that sells NETs, taking it upon themselves to test and reformulate a liquid
for their consumers.
In my eyes, any vendor that is willing to do this is going to get, at the very least, a sample order.
Maybe a larger one if things are favorable on the tastebud spectrum.
O.K.; The end-end. If we want to discuss this further, or if anyone has any ideas about setting up a thread dedicated to discussing diketones and vendor transparency that isn't related to NETs: PM me, I always have ideas streaming out of my head. Well,
steaming out is probably more accurate. There's just...too much pressure in there to keep all those ideas bottled up.
However, if a NET vendor provides such information or takes the initiative to do what we have discussed thus far, I will most certainly post it here, as well as in its potential counterpart.
Sorry if I'm being all
No attempt at hijacking this thread was made in this post.
All posters are innocent until proven guilty in a court of mods.
I couldn't help but laugh at that last bit. Sorry.
(I have like 20 tabs open. There's no such thing as multitasking: just Attention Surplus Disorder; you try to pay attention to
everything all at the same time. It doesn't always work. Sometimes. What was I doing, again? Hmm...oh, that. Excuse me, stepping out for a bit.)
