Natural Tobaccos

[AnthonyB]

We will be buying our gear from Canada, China and well, come to think of it, even Australia (mods and attys). If not that, we will extract our own juices, get nicotine from the black market and we will find a way. I am not going back to cigarettes or pre-filled cartos. I want to see how they plan on banning kanthal wire and silica. Where there is a will there is a way.

E-cigs have come too far and have proven effective beyond all expectation and fantasy a decade ago of finding a reduced harm alternative that could be so effective and pleasurable.

The body of research is growing and the more research done the more it will be manifest that e-cigs contain minimal health risks or hazard. That will only make any laws to regulate it look foolish and ignorant particularly while cigarettes and cigars are still freely available and legal.

I apologize if anyone thinks this discussion is off topic. In one sense it is off topic, but in another sense it's entirely on topic. Natural tobacco extractions might be more pertinent to the future of e-cigs than we current realize.

What I really hate about this threat to our beloved vaping is how I can't just sit back with a nice vape and just enjoy the freedom of it, the choices or think about the future possibilities of new developments in liquids, atty's, tanks without that spectre lurking that it might all be banned at some undefined time in the future. Surely, these threats must affect the entire movement of the industry and scare some people off from even venturing into an e-cig business.

I would hate to be in the shoes of people like Clay of NET.com, Rich at QNJ, Donley at W2v, Nick at GeJ, Wlad at ahlusion and countless others who work tirelessly and with love to create such wonderful liquids who have to face uncertainty in the future of their business. it's not just about the money for these guys, it's about something greater than the profitability.

I think I speak for many when I say that I have seldom encountered such customer service, sense of community and integrity and love in many other industries such as is the case in the e-cig industry.

I will stay on topic from here on in and drop this discussion now.

We could, but I think that argument has to be made only after we've gotten a lot of more basic fights to go our way. I think we'd better FIRST argue as opponents of all things carcinogenic. I hate to tell you NET lovers, but many juice vendors who don't have the labs or gear or cash to jump through a lot of hoops in the future may not have much (commercial) future anyway.

How many can test their stuff for TSNA's? How many will be capable of doing their tobacco extractions in a separate facility from the one they use for bottling juice? How many have pro labs that will pass muster when inspections begin? How many have actual labs at all? Among all juice makers, there aren't many who will be ready to meet those requirements. Among NET makers, that club is tiny.

And, of course, we don't know if a la carte juice will be allowed at all. We may all be vaping pre-filled cartos next year, or whenever our stashes of juice run out.

 

[AnthonyB]

I think you can get your money back on Full Tilt now? Australians can still play on the site and after a 6 months lockdown the site was back up and running, same with 888. I know Americans who had 10,000s of dollars locked down in the freeze. I don't know if they ever got their money back.

Full Tilt Poker still owes me money.

 

[Bob Chill]

I guess my fear comes from the fact that I saw this happen in the online poker community. Despite masses of people playing online poker, it soon caught the spotlight of the law makers and enforcement agencies in the US and was banned. I know it is an entirely different kettle of fish but most people never thought 'it would happen' to them in such a well established industry like online poker. When 'black Friday' hit nobody expected it and many people who had careers in online poker lost their source of income overnight.

I know this is an entirely emotional, and perhaps irrational response but why the F do all the things we love to do, and all the choices we make get sanctioned, regulated, taxed and incriminated? I thought America was a country built on freedom? Capitalism, sheer extreme wing capitalism is the evil cousin to democracy.

Yea, we're a free capitalist country as long as nothing interferes with the top of the food chain in the free market. Vaping is by far the biggest threat to the top of the food chain...ever.

Over the last 10-15 years our freedoms have been eroded at an alarming rate. Between 9-11 and the economic crash, the government has taking it upon themselves to "protect us" by MAKING DECISIONS FOR US. It's really sad. We're slowly being reduced to a class of people that aren't allowed to make their own decisions and make their own mistakes because we don't know what's best for us. I could bring up quite a few examples but I'll stop here before the OT rant continues.

As for the vaping world, it is too unregulated for what it is. I won't argue that and I don't mean taxes. We are ingesting chemicals into our body much like eating and drinking. I could mix juice on my basement floor and sell it. A bad batch of juice could cause a bacterial outbreak just with unsafe mixing procedures. Any product in the US that is ingested has a set of required safety standards. Sure, plenty of folks get sick from bad lettuce but the bottom line is these safety standards are necessary. It's a leap of faith to some extent buying juice right now. We don't even know if the bottles were washed nor the hands that fill it. It's not unreasonable to expect a juice vendor to follow similar safety and sanitary practices as food prep but they aren't required too. Changing that aspect is totally understandable.

If juice vendors get hit with regulations and taxes it won't shut them down overnight as long as there is sufficient demand. They simply pass on the cost. This is business 101. There are HUGE margins in juice already. Typical retail is a 100% markup. If something costs $10 you sell it for $20. 30mls of almost all juices cost less than $3 to make and bottle (not including labor) but they are commonly sold for $15. There's room to play here even in the face of taxes, regulations, and equipment to meet standards. Assuming we'll be allowed to buy bottled juice in bulk and not pre-filled disposable cartos. Eek.

NETs are likely going to face bigger challenges for obvious reasons. It's more complicated than artificial flavors that you just pour in from a bottle purchased from an already FDA approved source. I honestly have no idea how this is all going to shake out. Especially for NETs. Luckily I'm probably smart enough to craft my own nets from tobacco I can easily buy and I'm working on finishing up stocking up a 5 year supply of nic base. That's about as much as I can do to protect my freedom for now.

 

[Bronze]

Nothing I know of tastes like Grandpa's Night Cap.

 

[Bronze]

My only comment on all the FDA discussion is that if anyone doesn't think politics and tax revenue isn't a prime motivator for regulation then they are taking a naive position. The feds take in $80 billion/year on tobacco taxes. You think they're going to see that precious revenue stream dry up without taking action? I think not.

 

[flowerpots]

I just found this article and wonder if this is an FDA angle to justify e-cig regulation in the future, categorizing nicotine as a stimulant in need of regulation:

Defining Boundaries for Caffeine in Today

 

[Mr.Mann]

I just found this article and wonder if this is an FDA angle to justify e-cig regulation in the future, categorizing nicotine as a stimulant in need of regulation:

Defining Boundaries for Caffeine in Today

Yup, that's why I always say, nicotine and caffeine are nothing alike! Good read there, FP. This may upset some, but upon reading that, I can't say that I disagree or that I haven't felt the same way. Then again, "energy" drinks are sold to and consumed by, in droves, minors. Hey bartender, can I get some Redbull? Sure, show me some i.d.

 

[Bronze]

I'm vaping some Apache/Proudest Monkey blend this morning. Truthfully, I cannot remember what ratio I blended. I mixed it about a month ago and forgot. But it is really good as in REALLY good! Not all blends I try work out. In fact, if it were baseball, I'd be hitting about .300. The fire-cured seems to work with everything. It's the smoky characteristic that works so well with other flavors. QnJ hit it out of the park with their fire-cured tobacco.

Anyhow, just wondering if others blend and what blends have worked for you.

I need a break from the FDA discussion.

 

[Bob Chill]

The funny thing about caffeine and nicotine is that too much produces unpleasant results and are only toxic if you force yourself to cross the line. Intake is self regulated by the user for the most part. In the grand scheme, the health risks of caffeine are quite minimal and are far offset by the benefits. Nicotine should be in that same class but we have a long long way to go before any type of apples to apples comparison is even considered.

When I was growing up no-doze was all the craze. I over did it exactly one time. Blech. Coffee was far superior than a stupid yellow pill anyways. Are those things even still around?

 

[Mr.Mann]

That's a huge distinction though--no restrictions vs. restrictions on who can purchase. When I see little kids drinking Monster (I hate even saying that) and Redbull, or RockStar, I know exactly who those are marketed toward and they just guzzle it down. Wow. Dude! My left arm is feeling numb. Cool. :faceplam: Hell, NoDoz can be purchased by minors and that's been on the market for quite awhile. I don't know what my point is, but the fact remains, in a similar vein as others have alluded to, NoDoz was NEVER as powerful of a money generator as those "energy" drinks (and workout supplements like Jack3d, N.O XPlode...sorry, don't ask why I know about that stuff. )

C.R.E.A.M, cream get the money. Dollar, dollar bill y'all.

EDIT******

The funny thing about caffeine and nicotine is that too much produces unpleasant results and are only toxic if you force yourself to cross the line. Intake is self regulated by the user for the most part. In the grand scheme, the health risks of caffeine are quite minimal and are far offset by the benefits. Nicotine should be in that same class but we have a long long way to go before any type of apples to apples comparison is even considered.

When I was growing up no-doze was all the craze. I over did it exactly one time. Blech. Coffee was far superior than a stupid yellow pill anyways. Are those things even still around?

Just saw this after I hit post. LOL. You beat me to the bit about NoDoz! LOL. Great points about self-regulation, but you can down 3 cans of RedBull before you recognize anything, and once you do, POW! You can't vape like that.

Oh, yes, they are still around. Haven't you heard, kids dissolve 'em in their Redbull.

 

[flowerpots]

Yup, that's why I always say, nicotine and caffeine are nothing alike! Good read there, FP. This may upset some, but upon reading that, I can't say that I disagree or that I haven't felt the same way. Then again, "energy" drinks are sold to and consumed by, in droves, minors. Hey bartender, can I get some Redbull? Sure, show me some i.d.

I know this is not the popular view here, but I agree that caffeine should be regulated and made less readily available to kids/teens who have no sense of consequences yet, have developing bodies that need proper intake of nutrients, and little to no sense of self-control in areas like this. As much as parents need to police their children and raise them in such a way as to teach them early on how to make smart decisions, I think kids are by nature experimental and companies specifically target youth, knowing this is a huge profit base for them. I'm not saying eliminate caffeine, but make it less attractive and available to youth. Carding for some of those energy drinks is not a crazy thought to me.

But, I do find it curious (in a conspiracy theory-ish way) that this is an FDA focus now, just when e-cig and nicotine regulation hangs in the balance, and when for years, since I can remember, there have been issues with caffeine-laden beverages like sodas (remember Jolt, anyone?) that have come and gone with good reason, yet the energy drinks seem to thrive, despite their controversy, and when coffee is likely the most consumed adult beverage (I have no stats to back this up, it's just a hunch) and I don't see that as being regulated.

 

[Bob Chill]

Bronze, how much banana comes out with proudest monkey? Banana is hit and miss with me. I find "bright" banana kinda nasty but creamy banana is pretty nice. I define "bright" as in those yellow banana shaped candies. I hate those things but I like eating bananas.

 

[flowerpots]

I need a break from the FDA discussion.

Soap box set aside...

 

[Mr.Mann]

Bronze, how much banana comes out with proudest monkey? Banana is hit and miss with me. I find "bright" banana kinda nasty but creamy banana is pretty nice. I define "bright" as in those yellow banana shaped candies. I hate those things but I like eating bananas.

To me, the banana in Proudest Monkey tasted like the banana in Runts candy.

Edit***D'uh, I think we're talking about the same thing. LOL. Yes, I too hate that flavor, and I detect it whenever near.

 

[Bronze]

Bronze, how much banana comes out with proudest monkey? Banana is hit and miss with me. I find "bright" banana kinda nasty but creamy banana is pretty nice. I define "bright" as in those yellow banana shaped candies. I hate those things but I like eating bananas.

BC...the banana in Proudest Monkey is very light. Among the lightest of all the primate juices out there. The star of Proudest Monkey is the fire-cured tobacco. It's a nice, pleasant, smoky tobacco. Yes, you get some banana with it, but I find the banana is meant as a mild sweetener to keep the vape from going dry. Honestly, I haven't liked any banana vapes. I've tried several but PM hits the spot for me. Just me though. If someone is trying PM to get a banana rush, they'll be disappointed because it is light. If they view it as a fine fire-cured tobacco with a bonus note of light banana then they will appreciate PM.

 

[Mr.Mann]

If they view it as a fine fire-cured tobacco with a bonus note of light banana then they will appreciate PM.

I view it as a fine woman with a missing front tooth. Damn, almost. But, luckily you can get that liquid sans banana. Good job, Rich!

 

[Bronze]

Soap box set aside...

Don't let me dictate what you want to talk about FP. I'm nothing special. I just wanted to see if I could spark some alternative discussion.

 

[Bronze]

I view it as a fine woman with a missing front tooth. Damn, almost. But, luckily you can get that liquid sans banana. Good job, Rich!

Indeed. We are lucky we can get it straight up. If I recall, you and I might of had something to do with that. And we didn't even tag team to do it.

And I have to admit...I take pleasure in you not liking a juice. You're almost human.

 

[Bronze]

I view it as a fine woman with a missing front tooth. Damn, almost. But, luckily you can get that liquid sans banana. Good job, Rich!

I have started to take Rich's straight up fire-cured (whatever the hell he calls it) and adding some Lorann flavorings. The first one I tried is Captain Black. Initial impression is very good but the jury is still out. Guess what? Gotta let them steep too.

And then gota find the right amount to add. I never want to lose that fire-cured base. I want the flavoring to simply compliment the base and keep it from being dry...not overtake it.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Indeed. We are lucky we can get it straight up. If I recall, you and I might of had something to do with that. And we didn't even tag team to do it.

And I have to admit...I take pleasure in you not liking a juice. You're almost human.

Yes we did.

I, once again, generally don't talk about the liquids I dislike (hell, I won't even PIF 'em). I actually only liked one flavored liquid from QnJ: ouR whY Qu4tro. The rest of those flavors were, shall I say, standing in the way of a really nice tobacco. Bronze, if you could see my list of liquids I dislike/loathe/abhor, you'd see that not only am I normal, but my success ratio is much lower than my failure rate. But, to be successful one should learn to be okay with a high failure rate. When I buy NETs, or "tobaccos" for that matter, I go for everyone except menthols, or unless the menu is too damn vast, but I'll still try. Hell, didn't you see when I bought all of Prime Vaping? I've had all of Vaperite and only ONE out of both of those entire lines did I find to be what I would vape, though I'll never even order that one again (sorry lasttango and AnthonyB. LOL).