Natural Tobaccos

[Frankenmizer]

I am glad to see Balkan getting love lately. I think that really is an excellent juice, and unique as well. Plus it is a legit hardcore NET, but accessible to many people who never smoked or a pipe or who never had a more robust, spicy blend like this.

This will be my first go-round with Balkan. I'm looking forward to it. The single-leaf extractions were a no-brainer given the sale - I knew I was going to try them, so might as well be now.

And of course, Uncle BJ's BlackBerry Burley..well now, I couldn't pass that up.

 

[Dusty_D]

This will be my first go-round with Balkan. I'm looking forward to it. The single-leaf extractions were a no-brainer given the sale - I knew I was going to try them, so might as well be now.

And of course, Uncle BJ's BlackBerry Burley..well now, I couldn't pass that up.

Balkan to me was like an Apache lite.. not light enough to be dismissible, but light enough that I can vape it for more than a few hours, which is my limit with Apache. After that it feels like somebody is trying to rip out my throat. I've got 4x60ml coming to me of Balkan.

 

[Big Juicy]

Sweet, always dug your reviews Luce.

Haven't really heard much about those cigars, most of the talk has been about the cig and pipe vapes.

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I have had 3 Crowns (managua-esque), bourbon seasoned, H+ yellow...and all have been exceptional. Best am most authentic cigars I have had this side of W2V

 

[Mr.Mann]

Balkan to me was like an Apache lite.. not light enough to be dismissible, but light enough that I can vape it for more than a few hours, which is my limit with Apache. After that it feels like somebody is trying to rip out my throat. I've got 4x60ml coming to me of Balkan.

240 mL? Okay, but I still don't know if you like it or not. LOL

 

[Dusty_D]

240 mL? Okay, but I still don't know if you like it or not. LOL

I'll let you know in about ..oh.. 6 months or so, when I'm done steeping.

 

[jefsview]

Well, by the time I can afford to order, even with a sale, NET.com will have a wonderfully full line-up of flavor-rich tobaccos.

The mango, and blackberry are penciled in, and looking forward to his take on RY4, chocolate, apple and peach (?).

 

[billherbst]

In a post earlier this month (post #16028) I held that SpringVapor Black Label 555 was made with natural tobacco, although I didn't know the type (NET, TA, straight maceration, CO2, alcohol, cold-steeped, heat-assisted, whatever) or source (in-house, outsourced). Shatner replied that "Spring Vapor doesn't have any NETs," stating also that he'd talked to Nik (owner and juicemaster of SpringVapor) about it.

That left me puzzled, so I PM'd Nik (Chief-A-Lot on ECF) and asked whether Black Label 555 was made with natural or synthetic tobacco flavorings. I didn't hear back until this evening. Seems that Nik has been busy getting a new brick and mortar store ready to open and hadn't been on ECF for weeks. Anyway, Nik confirmed that his Black Label 555 is made with Tobacco Absolute, and also that it's 100% VG and completely PG-free, which implies that his 555 uses only alcohol- or VG-based flavorings (the vast majority of synthetic tobacco flavorings are PG-based).

This takes us back to an unresolved issue. Since this thread is entitled "Natural Tobaccos," should we include Tobacco Absolute (TA), Tobacco Extract (TE), and CO2 extractions, along with the the more familiar and common macerated NETs? After all, they're all made using real, natural tobacco. If we decide to keep them out, do we then exclude vendors such as Mom&Pop, Moondrop, VelvetCloudVapor, and SpringVapor, since they all use TA rather than macerated NET? If we include TA/TE/CO2 as "natural tobaccos," should we give them their own sub-category? I don't know.

I'm just affirming that my post was correct: SpringVapor Black Label 555 is indeed made with natural tobacco.

 

[Jerms]

In a post earlier this month (post #16028) I held that SpringVapor Black Label 555 was made with natural tobacco, although I didn't know the type (NET, TA, straight maceration, CO2, alcohol, cold-steeped, heat-assisted, whatever) or source (in-house, outsourced). Shatner replied that "Spring Vapor doesn't have any NETs," stating also that he'd talked to Nik (owner and juicemaster of SpringVapor) about it.

That left me puzzled, so I PM'd Nik (Chief-A-Lot on ECF) and asked whether Black Label 555 was made with natural or synthetic tobacco flavorings. I didn't hear back until this evening. Seems that Nik has been busy getting a new brick and mortar store ready to open and hadn't been on ECF for weeks. Anyway, Nik confirmed that his Black Label 555 is made with Tobacco Absolute, and also that it's 100% VG and completely PG-free, which implies that his 555 uses only alcohol- or VG-based flavorings (the vast majority of synthetic tobacco flavorings are PG-based).

This takes us back to an unresolved issue. Since this thread is entitled "Natural Tobaccos," should we include Tobacco Absolute (TA), Tobacco Extract (TE), and CO2 extractions, along with the the more familiar and common macerated NETs? After all, they're all made using real, natural tobacco. If we decide to keep them out, do we then exclude vendors such as Mom&Pop, Moondrop, VelvetCloudVapor, and SpringVapor, since they all use TA rather than macerated NET? If we include TA/TE/CO2 as "natural tobaccos," should we give them their own sub-category? I don't know.

I'm just affirming that my post was correct: SpringVapor Black Label 555 is indeed made with natural tobacco.

When I make a list of NET vendors, I don't include ones who's only real tobacco contribution is from commercial TA or TE. It's just such a common ingredient. VCV I include as a NET vendor, since they make their own TA from a different tobacco than commercial TA. Some have said the vendor needs to make it's own tobacco extraction, but that would leave out vendors like HHV who buy their tobacco extracts.

So while commercial TA and TE can be argued to be a natural tobacco, I don't think there's going to be a universal agreement whether vendors who use TA are to be considered NET vendors. For my purposes, no I don't, with an exception of VCV for making their own. If someone else wants to include them that's fine, but their list of "NET vendors" will be much, much larger than mine.

While I don't consider only using TA to be enough for me to call it a NET, I do think talk of TA juices is fitting in this thread.

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[Mr.Mann]

In a post earlier this month (post #16028) I held that SpringVapor Black Label 555 was made with natural tobacco, although I didn't know the type (NET, TA, straight maceration, CO2, alcohol, cold-steeped, heat-assisted, whatever) or source (in-house, outsourced). Shatner replied that "Spring Vapor doesn't have any NETs," stating also that he'd talked to Nik (owner and juicemaster of SpringVapor) about it.

That left me puzzled, so I PM'd Nik (Chief-A-Lot on ECF) and asked whether Black Label 555 was made with natural or synthetic tobacco flavorings. I didn't hear back until this evening. Seems that Nik has been busy getting a new brick and mortar store ready to open and hadn't been on ECF for weeks. Anyway, Nik confirmed that his Black Label 555 is made with Tobacco Absolute, and also that it's 100% VG and completely PG-free, which implies that his 555 uses only alcohol- or VG-based flavorings (the vast majority of synthetic tobacco flavorings are PG-based).

This takes us back to an unresolved issue. Since this thread is entitled "Natural Tobaccos," should we include Tobacco Absolute (TA), Tobacco Extract (TE), and CO2 extractions, along with the the more familiar and common macerated NETs? After all, they're all made using real, natural tobacco. If we decide to keep them out, do we then exclude vendors such as Mom&Pop, Moondrop, VelvetCloudVapor, and SpringVapor, since they all use TA rather than macerated NET? If we include TA/TE/CO2 as "natural tobaccos," should we give them their own sub-category? I don't know.

I'm just affirming that my post was correct: SpringVapor Black Label 555 is indeed made with natural tobacco.

I see no qualms with letting TA into the conversation; but that would also mean that we'd have to include Dekang. I talked with Kelly at Dekang about this and she said they extract tobacco, and then I asked if it's TA and she said, "Yes, we can say that to some extent." That's where it starts to get tricky. Also, while a more vendors are starting to be more open, it's quite difficult sometimes to discern whether a liquid has TA. That and TA is generally all one TA. It would be kind of weird to be talking about the same ingredient in many disguises.

Personally, I feel that Hangsen could be included (and I don't think they are simply making TA), but I would completely understand why others would disagree. Once again, I think TA is the NET redheaded stepchild.

 

[Mr.Mann]

When I make a list of NET vendors, I don't include ones who's only real tobacco contribution is from commercial TA or TE. It's just such a common ingredient. VCV I include as a NET vendor, since they make their own TA from a different tobacco than commercial TA. Some have said the vendor needs to make it's own tobacco extraction, but that would leave out vendors like HHV who buy their tobacco extracts.

So while commercial TA and TE can be argued to be a natural tobacco, I don't think there's going to be a universal agreement whether vendors who use TA are to be considered NET vendors. For my purposes, no I don't, with an exception of VCV for making their own. If someone else wants to include them that's fine, but their list of "NET vendors" will be much, much larger than mine.

While I don't consider only using TA to be enough for me to call it a NET, I do think talk of TA juices is fitting in this thread.

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Jerms, you make good points. Really good points.

 

[Jerms]

I was thinking about TA.. For those of us who say, no not technically a NET, what's our reason? Is it because of the process that used to make the concentrated TA, or is it because of it's availablility and/or how it's sold?

If the first is the reason, that would mean VCV is not a NET vendor. As far as I know, the process of making it is the same as commercial TA, though on a different scale. I lean towards the second reasoning, the availability; it's basically always the same Bulgarian Tobacco extraction concentrate, and as Mann mentioned "it would be weird to be talking about the same ingredient in many disguises." That reason also allows the inclusion of VCV as a NET vendor.

But then we may run into another problem.. what's the point where availability is so high it's no longer considered a NET? What if someone started commercially selling a maceration and suddenly dozens of vendors used it as a base to make their own "NET" line. Surely they are using a NET, but could we consider them "NET vendors"? What if the exact same tobacco used to make TA was used for a maceration at the same large scale as TA? What if VCV's operation grew bigger than commercial TA, and they sold more of their TA to more vendors than commercial TA? Does that mean when I say VCV TA juice is a NET, I would have to retract and say "well it was a NET and now it's not" or "well, it's still a NET and I guess I should have included TA as a NET all along".

I don't have answers, and most those are questions that will probably never have to be asked.. but as we go along and things continue to grow, we may have to start looking closer and getting more definate when it comes to what is what.

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[SharonMM]

Ok so tell me if I have this right. Tobacco flavored liquids are made from using either a)synthetic flavorings, b)tobacco extract or c)tobacco absolute. Are any vendors using a combination of these?
Is tobacco extract what results from a maceraction?

 

[Jerms]

Personally, I feel that Hangsen could be included (and I don't think they are simply making TA), but I would completely understand why others would disagree. Once again, I think TA is the NET redheaded stepchild.

This has me curious, as I know nothing of Hangsen. A quick google search shows claims of them being the world's larges eliquid manufactorer and I found this interesting paragraph on the wiki page..

Hangsen sells electronic cigarettes and E-liquid from natural tobacco. It provides OEM service to most of the major electronic cigarette retailers in the world. The tobacco includes Zimbabwe tobacco, Izmir tobacco, Burley tobacco etc. The techniques used in the process of tobacco leaves are molecular distillation, supercritical fluid extraction technique and molecular interception etc.

Sooo.. molecular distillation, superficial fluid extraction, moleculat interception.. yep, that would need to be dummied down for me to understand.

But I see some different types of tobacco is being used. Is Hangsen's tobaccos worth checking out for us NETters?

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[Jerms]

Ok so tell me if I have this right. Tobacco flavored liquids are made from using either a)synthetic flavorings, b)tobacco extract or c)tobacco absolute. Are any vendors using a combination of these?
Is tobacco extract what results from a maceraction?

Yes, many vendors use a combination of the 3 for a final product. And yes, the tobacco extract used in many NETs is made from maceration, usually soaking in a pg/vg either assisted by heat or not, made in a matter of hours, days, or even weeks; and then filtered to remove the particulates. The resulting extract is used as the flavoring for a NET when combined with pg/vg and nicotine (and/or other natural/synthetic flavorings and/or TA or TE).

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[SharonMM]

I know right? Seems like the Chinese are using way more advanced methods than what we see here in the states. My curiosity is piqued.

 

[Mr.Mann]

This has me curious, as I know nothing of Hangsen. A quick google search shows claims of them being the world's larges eliquid manufactorer and I found this interesting paragraph on the wiki page..

Hangsen sells electronic cigarettes and E-liquid from natural tobacco. It provides OEM service to most of the major electronic cigarette retailers in the world. The tobacco includes Zimbabwe tobacco, Izmir tobacco, Burley tobacco etc. The techniques used in the process of tobacco leaves are molecular distillation, supercritical fluid extraction technique and molecular interception etc.

Sooo.. molecular distillation, superficial fluid extraction, moleculat interception.. yep, that would need to be dummied down for me to understand.

But I see some different types of tobacco is being used. Is Hangsen's tobaccos worth checking out for us NETters?

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Mostly for DIYing. Hangsen is a powerhouse for DIYers. They use all types of techniques.

I have some of their RY1 that I add to some synth liquids and it does really add tobacco, and not in a TA sort of way, though they have some that do that as well (USA Red). I like RY1. RY1 adds a bit of a tobacco taste reminiscent of Casablanca.

In the DIYsection, when asking for a natural tobacco ingredient for DIYing, Hangsen will be mentioned rather quickly.

 

[Jerms]

I know right? Seems like the Chinese are using way more advanced methods than what we see here in the states. My curiosity is piqued.

Well.. they have been at it longer. And also they tend to be much larger operations than our US vendors, who are mostly at the mom and pop stage. In the whole forum, US vendors are discussed more and it seems that most of peoples tastes lean more towards US vendors. Outside of the forums, and in the world at large, Chinese vendors create what most people are vaping.

My only experience with Chinese juices came from pre-filled cartos when I started, which was ok at the time though the tobaccos I didn't like; and more recently with Chinese RY4s, which I do like. There's a whole world of Chinese vapes that I haven't even glanced at.. maybe I should. I don't know if I have it in me to start looking at a whole new and rather large category of juices though lol.

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[Jerms]

Mostly for DIYing. Hangsen is a powerhouse for DIYers.

Sweet, that means it doesn't pertain to me.. (yet lol)

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[Mr.Mann]

Ok so tell me if I have this right. Tobacco flavored liquids are made from using either a)synthetic flavorings, b)tobacco extract or c)tobacco absolute. Are any vendors using a combination of these?
Is tobacco extract what results from a maceraction?

But to confuse matters (and that is not my intent, but rather to prepare you for the inevitable), the particular wording you used, e.g., "tobacco extract" and "tobacco absolute" are essentially the same thing. What I mean is, those terms are used as names of two ingredients that were sold by Perfumer's Apprentice that are both, basically, absolutes. TE, tobacco extract, is a water miscible absolute. Vendors like Mom and Pop Vapor Shop use both.

From Tami at M&P: "All of our tobacco’s use either tobacco absolute or tobacco extract. It is easier to tell you which one’s have extract versus absolute as there are fewer, the flavors that contain extract include RYO, RYO4 and Conspiracy, our other tobacco’s use tobacco absolute.."

In the context of this thread, a tobacco extract, or NET, is quite different from when you see us speak about TE as in what M&P uses.

**M&P are now actually venturing into working with actual tobacco, not just DIY ingredients, for in house extraction. Stay tuned.

 

[SharonMM]

Ok so for example.. the tobacco extracts that they are extracting in house at net.com is from actual tobacco by the process of maceration are not the same as the tobacco extracts used by mom and pops, who are using commercially bought extracts. Yes, no? Thanks for helping me with this and sorry to be a pita.

So really.. is it safe to say the qualifier for net discussion on this thread is if the vendor is working with tobacco as a raw material?