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Mr.Mann

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I'm not aware of any NETs that also contain WTA.
I'm not aware of any NETs that also contain WTA.
Dr_Evil.jpg



I do understand where everyone is coming from. It irritates me to no end when a vendor claims "NET" and they're actually using TA (and there's more than a few of them). They aren't lying necessarily (again IMO), just misrepresenting.

This is why the distinction must be made. Yes, for all practical purposes TA/TE is an NET, but on its own, it is a mere ingredient that allows for it to be discussed "on-topic" in this thread, but discussed with an asterisk. For the most part, TA/TE will almost always (at least from a noticeable standpoint) exist in the realm of hybrid.

Part of the reason that I think it's really not an issue (as to whether it should or should not be discussed) is that the discussion, reviews, analyses, critique, and most banter--all integral and essential parts to a forum of eliquid--will never, save for VCV (the one exception), be able to be talked about beyond, "it's ashy," "it's dirty," "it's oily," "it's tastes like perfume," "it's dry." Try to write more than a few lines on straight TA/TE (no, not you, Bill or VaporMizer! LOL).

As an aside, TA is used in small percentages of many commercially made cigarettes--maybe to mask all the other mess added? Maybe because most cigarette manufacturer's products need the help?? I dunno. But, it can be considered an ingredient used for the purposes of consumption, but as an enhancer, not the starting point. If a juice's only claim to being an NET is its TA/TE (not VCV), it will be a hybrid at best. No need to add more sub-categories.
 
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billherbst

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The first sentence of Luce's original post reads: "I want to start a thread for those looking for real tobacco flavors rather than anything artificial/imitation." (emphasis mine)

What follows is my opinion only, since I am fallible and often just full of it.

WTA (whole tobacco alkaloid) is not a flavoring. It's an additive used to "spike" the nicotine impact of an eliquid, to give it more likelihood of producing the "satisfaction" that many people experience from smoking. In his book, Smoking: The Artificial Passion, which was a survey of all the scientific research on smoking, author David Krogh prostulated that smoking was a "normalizing" addiction, in that it helped smokers to feel normal when they weren't otherwise. WTA is a critical component in that normalizing effect. In eliquids in which it is used, WTA does not alter the flavor profile in any significant way. Therefore, it is Off-Topic in this thread---perfectly OK to mention every so often, but not a subject for in-depth discussion here.

TA (Tobacco Absolute) is a flavoring. While not in the same category of straight-ahead food flavorings such as caramel, vanilla, or strawberry, TA nonetheless imparts a definite and recognizable taste in juices in which it is used and alters their flavor profile perceptibly. Thus, it is On-Topic in this thread and correctly fair game for discussion.

From my perspective, we are still in the early days of NETs. As MrMann and VaporMizer both noted, typical NET flavorings made from steeped macerations are a great step forward toward natural tobacco flavors in vaping, but---despite our enthusiasm for NETs and how delicious some of them are---they usually lack something. Yes, to those of us who are denizens of this thread, NETs taste much better than synthetic, lab-based tobacco flavorings, but something is still missing. That something may be impossible to define, since we're not trying to replicate the flavor of chewing raw tobacco leaves. The "complete flavor" to which I'm alluding doesn't yet exist, although we may recognize it the minute we taste it.

I'd theorize that current extraction methods---whether we think of them as cooking, steeping, seeping, leeching, or whatever---are unable to produce flavoring liquids that provide the complete taste we would like. I mean, does anyone here on this thread imagine that we have reached the mountain top yet? My feeling is that we're much closer to the base of the mountain than the summit.

I can easily imagine the possibility that distilled essential oils of tobacco---probably not the commercial version of TA, since that is an inherently idiosyncratic product, but something related or vaguely similar---may yet turn out to provide some of that "missing something" in the flavor profile of tobacco flavor vaping juices. Maybe not tomorrow, and perhaps not with the existing NETs and TA/TE to which we have access today, but somewhere down the road.

But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps essential oil distillations will prove to be an evolutionary dead-end, and someday we'll look back on TA/TE as failed experiments, mere footnotes in the history of vaping. NET, however, are clearly a step in the right direction, and I'm enjoying them immensely even while I await the next development, whatever it is.
 

Mr.Mann

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Sorry to post again about this topic but I'm curious, is there any artificial tobaccos with TA that people really want considered a NET in this thread? Or any NETs that also contain TA that people don't want to be consider a NET? I guess I'm confused as to why some consider TA a NET instead of just an ingredient that goes with extracted or artificial tobacco, when there isn't even a juice released that only contains commercial TA.

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Straight-Up and Straight-Up Light. Most vendors won't even tell you that they use TA because it is just an ingredient in their proprietary mix of other off-the-shelf flavorings and not a claim to fame...and because it scares some people. haha. Conversely, some NET manufacturers are too proud and suffer from the same rectum-clinching fear of being associated with TA.

If anyone is looking to take one or two for the team, for research purposes, I would suggest Mom and Pop Tobacco Haze or Moon Drop Smith Barn Sticks. Let both of those bad boys steep long term. As with most juices, some will tell you it may or may not make a difference to steep, but I have gone long term with both and it went from dead end to open road.
 

scarf-ace

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Lots of vendors sell NETs they didn't extract themselves, and I'm not talking TA or TE.

Mind sharing some names?

So if I buy some extract from whoever that vendor is that sells extracts and make my own juice from it it isn't a NET since I didn't extract it myself.

Ok maybe I stretched my definition a bit far, I concede. Yes, that would be a NET, because it is tobacco macerated in the way we have come to expect a NET to be, even if you didn't make it yourself. I was just expressing that with TA/TE there are hundreds of degrees of separation between whoever extracted millions of tobacco leaves (from a hundred different crops) to create a liter of TA to be used for a dozen purposes. With a NET as we discuss here, it was meant to be a smoke juice and nothing else.

Sorry for confusing the issue.
 

Mr.Mann

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Wow it does exist. It's like the Everclear of TA vapes. Pure TA, no BS. I wonder how concentrated it is.

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It's a not as ugly as Best Damn Tobacco (what a name for that juice, LOL) but it ain't pretty. I sent some to Skinnie and TCP so they could try it. Holler at Paul from Moondrop and he may clue you in on how much. It is only "pure" in the sense that there is nothing else besides PG/VG. I think M&P may have one or two, like RYO and Bud's Blend, that is straight-up TE with varying degrees of saturation. Undoubetdly there are more, but those are the vendors that I know of that will tell you what's up.
 

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It's a not as ugly as Best Damn Tobacco (what a name for that juice, LOL) but it ain't pretty. I sent some to Skinnie and TCP so they could try it. Holler at Paul from Moondrop and he may clue you in on how much. It is only "pure" in the sense that there is nothing else besides PG/VG. I think M&P may have one or two, like RYO and Bud's Blend, that is straight-up TE with varying degrees of saturation. Undoubetdly there are more, but those are the vendors that I know of that will tell you what's up.

I guess I was under the wrong impression that TA was only used as added to a tobacco flavored juice. Didn't realize it was being used as the only flavor in some cases. See, over 7000+ posts read and I'm STILL learning lol.

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Mr.Mann

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Welcome back, Mr. Mann.

Thanks! I am only kinda back as having a newborn (or better yet, a newborn fresh out of the hospital) inspires so much company that I need to retreat to my desk (too many hands and not enough baby, LOL).

If anyone is interested in some juice not mentioned in this thread yet, try

RiZe e-Juice Flue Cured Tobacco.

There are more to try, though I haven't gotten mine yet, so I can only go off of the word of the vendor. This is part of our correspondence:

Me: Okay, thanks. Well, I guess I should've asked this before, but are all of RiZe tobaccos extracted? Basically, I want to order all of the ones that are. It's hard to tell from the descriptions as to which are which. I belong to a group of ECF vapers--NET (naturally extracted tobacco) vapers--that scour through vendors looking for extracted tobacco...finding the juice is the hard part.

Them: Hi Jeremy,

Sorry for the late reply, I wanted to get verification from our lab techs and be sure every RiZe flavor is an extract before I replied to you.

Yes, they are all extracts indeed.

Thank you and if you have any more questions, please let us know.



Now, I DON'T know if they're any good at all, but I figured I'd at least let you all know. Maybe Bill has tried them?
 

VaporMizer

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... I can easily imagine the possibility that distilled essential oils of tobacco---probably not the commercial version of TA, since that is an inherently idiosyncratic product, but something related or vaguely similar---may yet turn out to provide some of that "missing something" in the flavor profile of tobacco flavor vaping juices. Maybe not tomorrow, and perhaps not with the existing NETs and TA/TE to which we have access today, but somewhere down the road...

Hey Bill, have you tried Nicotiana Rustica Tobacco Absolute? Some members have posted in other threads that they prefer it over the more common Nicotania Tabacum Absolute.
 

Mr.Mann

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Hey Bill, have you tried Nicotiana Rustica Tobacco Absolute? Some members have posted in other threads that they prefer it over the more common Nicotania Tabacum Absolute.

Maybe that's what this is? RiZe e-Juice Rustica Tobacco. Hey Jerms, forgive me for giving away my source. ;)
 

Jerms

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Maybe that's what this is? RiZe e-Juice Rustica Tobacco. Hey Jerms, forgive me for giving away my source. ;)

Ha! No prob, it is a sweet tobacco picture.

I'm having a tough time believing these are NETs, even though the vendor says so. Would they then be the first NETs since they've been around for a few years?? Is there really NETs that are Camels and Marlboros that we could have been suggesting to those looking for a cig NET, and it's been there the whole time??

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Mr.Mann

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Some of those RiZe juices may be TA/hybrids--I will inquire further 'cause as today's topic reveals, some don't distinguish TA from NET, though I will likely be able to tell from taste--but the Flue Cured says "composed of 100% flue-cured Gold Leaf tobacco." Once again, I don't have mine yet and don't know when I will be able to report back, but surely there is an adventurous NETV (naturally extracted tobacco vaper) out there?! LOL. VaporMizer, Jerms, you up for it?
 

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Some of those RiZe juices may be TA/hybrids--I will inquire further 'cause as today's topic reveals, some don't distinguish TA from NET, though I will likely be able to tell from taste--but the Flue Cured says "composed of 100% flue-cured Gold Leaf tobacco." Once again, I don't have mine yet and don't know when I will be able to report back, but surely there is an adventurous NETV (naturally extracted tobacco vaper) out there?! LOL. VaporMizer, Jerms, you up for it?

Maybe...sounds interesting. I was kind of waiting for either Sahara Blend or Hangsen's new RY6 to drop before ordering any juice, but the wait has already been pretty long. Hmmmm...
 

Mr.Mann

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Ha! No prob, it is a sweet tobacco picture.

I'm having a tough time believing these are NETs, even though the vendor says so. Would they then be the first NETs since they've been around for a few years?? Is there really NETs that are Camels and Marlboros that we could have been suggesting to those looking for a cig NET, and it's been there the whole time??

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Dude, I have sat on this for awhile, so up until recently, I leaned more toward no. I imagine that they are third-party extractions, but maybe not all TA? Who knows?! I tell you one thing, it does seem quite curious as to the description, the vendor's reply, and that those have been around awhile. Also, we have to remember that a lot of vaper's knowledge, experience and imagination of what a juice, especially an NET, can be in 2013 is way different from 2010.
 

Mr.Mann

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Oh, let me tell ya' about Sahara Blend! I just about flipped my wig when I got that juice and tried it fresh out the mail. The craziest part is how close it is to all other "Turkish" blends, but simultaneously being what I consider to be the pinnacle! I would go so far as to call it universal for NETV, but of course there likely exists a parallel universe where all things grand suck. I once started a thread called Universal Juice Recommendations...where I called Gandalf "universal," and I basically still stand by that, but this is strictly for the NETV universality, not any vaper like I was referring to with Gandy.

If you are not able to get some soon, once I get a BIG bottle (like 60 mL) of SB, which will be soon, maybe we can start of puff puff pass on the bottle? Try it and pass it on? I thought of you specifically when I tried it for the first time.
 

Jerms

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Dude, I have sat on this for awhile, so up until recently, I leaned more toward no. I imagine that they are third-party extractions, but maybe not all TA? Who knows?! I tell you one thing, it does seem quite curious as to the description, the vendor's reply, and that those have been around awhile. Also, we have to remember that a lot of vaper's knowledge, experience and imagination of what a juice, especially an NET, can be in 2013 is way different from 2010.

Ha! We've been talking about TA all day and for some reason my mind never even went to that they could using the term extract to mean TA is being used. Especially since back then, saying these are made from an extract would only mean TA (I think). Asking them the extraction method used might figure things out, but since you'll be tasting them anyways that should settle everything.

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Earlier, Jerms also brought up Pure Smoke from W2V... which was actually the reason I decided to revisit many of the e-juices I've acquired since the 1st of March such as the HHV's I just went through again... I would typically go to the GeJ's next since they were ordered at the same time as the HHV's... but really the W2V's were what I had the most curiosity about.

Pure Smoke and primarily Vapenstein Paris had really thrown me for a loop in a bad way... they were completely in my face and way beyond what I had expected. I let them steep for a good 4-5 days with caps off and now just over 15 days later... I really wanted to see what they had or hadn't changed into. Basically I didn't want to make a snap judgement simply based on me being unfamiliar with this type of tobacco blends. In addition, a PM from Mr.Mann also stated how many ( most? ) of W2V's tend to steep down instead of the other way which provided me with additional hope that they'd change to something more my liking if I didn't develop a taste for them on my own.

I started off with Pure Smoke since it was the least strong on my first tasting of these two. I immediately noticed the sweet malty flavor that Jerms had mentioned with the tobacco notes coming in a bit later. This was a good sign in a way, before I couldn't get past the tobacco notes at all and hardly had noticed the sweetness before. Still... this tasting was more about seeing what the tobacco had developed too... and for that it was best that I move onto the Paris so the other flavors wouldn't obscure the tobacco as much.

On my first taste of Paris... I noticed that it had also tamed down considerably even though it still has a strong taste. Instead of being so much "in my face" as it started... I could now taste it being somewhat cigar like I guess... at least I didn't have to pick myself up off of the floor this time... lol. I'm also uncertain if it is the Oriental, Lataka or both that I may be having issues with or at least tasting so strongly. The change in this is so drastic from when I first tasted it... that I'm going to set these back for at least another couple of weeks and see how they change/develop. I've also once again remove caps from both of these as well as the MOV Apache and Southern Gentleman as they also had similar flavor notes when I tasted them before.


I was able to finally remember what the taste is likened to... for me at least. It isn't the same, just reminiscent of something I have only experienced long ago when I was working as an assistant to a horse vet way back in around 1977 or so. They have ( or had ) an iodine scrub that they used back then to sanitize an area on a horse they were going to operate on... as well as what they would use to wash down the operating area with. The air would get thick enough with it that you could taste the iodine and other chemicals they used in it. Sort of a heavy medicinal flavor and smell.

I should emphasize that these don't taste like iodine... they are just reminiscent of that type of flavor I got back then... I'm pretty sure that this is just a matter of my mind matroxing the flavor because of some similar flavor notes... but I'm glad I was finally able to remember what it was that I was tasting now.
 
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