NEW Call to Action!! Tacoma-Pierce County Bait & Switch?

[DC2]

Is Puffing E-Cigarettes in Adult-Only Places a Happy Medium? - Lakewood, WA Patch

He must have written that while he was drunk.

 

[Vocalek]

Edit: And ME in the second one! Up at the podium.

Yes, the handsome Thad Marney.

And a handsome fellow you are, too.

 

[kristin]

Is Puffing E-Cigarettes in Adult-Only Places a Happy Medium? - Lakewood, WA Patch

Great pictures! Not sure if the article is accurate, though - I didn't think they actually made any amendments yet - the "over 21 establishments" was just one suggestion made at the BOH meeting?

Banning everywhere except over-21 establishments would NOT be a win, IMO. A LOT of vapers don't go to bars. What about a Bar & Grill after 10pm, where the kitchen is closed and patrons are just in the bar? What about someone who's workplace is outdoors?

Safe enough in bars but not safe enough elsewhere. What kind of stupid logic is that?

 

[Demarko]

Great pictures! Not sure if the article is accurate, though - I didn't think they actually made any amendments yet - the "over 21 establishments" was just one suggestion made at the BOH meeting?

Banning everywhere except over-21 establishments would NOT be a win, IMO. A LOT of vapers don't go to bars. What about a Bar & Grill after 10pm, where the kitchen is closed and patrons are just in the bar? What about someone who's workplace is outdoors?

Safe enough in bars but not safe enough elsewhere. What kind of stupid logic is that?

It's their way of keeping children from seeing it, I guess. That's the problem with compromise... If neither side is happy, it was probably a good compromise. heh. Seriously, though, I don't know what exactly has been put forward and what the eventual thing will look like but I believe Mr. Muri said, basically, "at the very least" places where minors aren't allowed.

 

[Thulium]

It's their way of keeping children from seeing it, I guess. That's the problem with compromise... If neither side is happy, it was probably a good compromise. heh. Seriously, though, I don't know what exactly has been put forward and what the eventual thing will look like but I believe Mr. Muri said, basically, "at the very least" places where minors aren't allowed.

The only "objection" voiced to an exception for 18+ businesses was that the resolution would include a plan to watch and revisit the issue over the next two years for information confirming or refuting e-cigarette safety, and the BoH does not want the hassle nor the embarrassment of changing the smoking ban more than once. This is why we need to do all we can to remind the board of health that the burden of proof MUST fall on the side that is attempting to restrict the property owners' right to create and enforce their own policies on smoke-free tobacco products. It is not as if businesses would be forced to allow the use of e-cigs, if an owner truly believes that it would be a bad example to allow vaping in their establishment they remain free to refuse service to anyone. ...But if an establishment owner hopes to preserve clientele that could be lost because of the indoor smoking ban, why shouldn't they be allowed to permit smoke-free alternatives??

E-cigarettes are as easy to distinguish from combustible cigarettes as fog machines are from house-fires.

 

[Demarko]

Another article, more quotes from Thulium

Ban on indoor vaping draws a crowd

This reporter was pretty cool - he's a committed smoker, but vaped at Cheers (And didn't once have to go outside to smoke one of his pall malls).

 

[kristin]

Very cool article!

Thad is becoming our West Coast superstar!

Another article, more quotes from Thulium

Ban on indoor vaping draws a crowd

This reporter was pretty cool - he's a committed smoker, but vaped at Cheers (And didn't once have to go outside to smoke one of his pall malls).

 

[rothenbj]

Great pictures! Not sure if the article is accurate, though - I didn't think they actually made any amendments yet - the "over 21 establishments" was just one suggestion made at the BOH meeting?

Banning everywhere except over-21 establishments would NOT be a win, IMO. A LOT of vapers don't go to bars. What about a Bar & Grill after 10pm, where the kitchen is closed and patrons are just in the bar? What about someone who's workplace is outdoors?

Safe enough in bars but not safe enough elsewhere. What kind of stupid logic is that?

I think it was a great compromise as long as we push for a ban of minors in public. They should be restricted from any outside influences until they reached adulthood anyway. In fact we'd raise a better citizen if their only influences came from a well regulated and monitored existence until at least the age of 18. Perhaps government intervention in all activities that could influence our youth could right this arc.

 

[JustJulie]

Thad Marney of Portland is on the board of directors of Consumer Advocates for Smoke-Free Alternatives. Marney said carbon monoxide and tar are the major culprits in cigarettes as far as a threat to the health of users. He dismissed the idea that minors want to use these devices.

“Kids are looking to rebel, not do the alternative to something naughty.”

Bill Barkley likened the devices to non-alcoholic beer. “I have never seen a teenager standing in front of 7-Eleven trying to score an O’Doul’s.”

Ban on indoor

 

[ShannonA]

Two comments were deleted off that article page... mine and I believe one of Thad's responding to Gary.

ETA : Above the picture it shows that there are 5 comments but when you click to jump to it or you scroll down... then you see only 3 comments.

Edit: Nevermind they're back now... glitch maybe... or possibly they're back because emailed the editor...not sure which but I reloaded the page a few times and they were no there before. I'm thinking a glitch or something with the site because of the discrepency between the comment numbers before.

 

[Thulium]

Another article, more quotes from Thulium

Ban on indoor vaping draws a crowd

This reporter was pretty cool - he's a committed smoker, but vaped at Cheers (And didn't once have to go outside to smoke one of his pall malls).

Ack! I wrote a letter to the editor, but it wouldn't let me send--I think because my IP address is not in Washington.

Anyway, here's what I wrote:

I may have been slightly mis-heard or mis-quoted in this article. I meant to say, "When kids are looking to rebel, they're not looking for 'the healthy alternative' to something naughty."

If trends shift and e-cigs are seen as fashionable, it is possible that some non-smokers or even children could be interested in trying one. Tobacco prohibitionists want you to believe this could gateway into a harmful habit, but consider this: If a never smoker tries an e-cigarette, why on earth would they choose to use one with nicotine? If that nonsmoker DID choose to use nicotine, the odds of becoming addicted to nicotine without the habit reinforcing properties of MAO inhibitors and myriad other substances in actual smoke are nearly nil. Finally, even if somehow a non-smoker decided to use and became addicted to the nicotine in their choice flavored e-cigarette, how could that possibly develop into a desire for the taste of burnt tobacco leaves???

By using the process of evaporation rather than combustion, e-cigarettes avoid at least 99% of the possible harms of smoking...including the reduced ability to taste and smell that allows smokers to tolerate smoking! After just a few days of using an e-cigarette, my senses began to return and smoking traditional cigarettes lost their appeal in favor vaping that avoids basically ALL of the hazards of smoking while keeping almost all of the enjoyment. People might enjoy vaping instead of smoking, is that such a terrible thing??

However harmful or harmless you may think smoking is, it is certainly at least 100 times more dangerous than smoke-free alternatives. One in five people smokes. Therefore, if only 5% of smokers switched to e-cigarettes or other alternatives, it would reduce more harm than could be caused by 100% of the population of the planet becoming "addicted" to e-cigs.

 

[DataPhreak]

I like the way you added that up there.

 

[Demarko]

I definitely think there's something to be said about getting politicians, reporters, etc to come observe vapers in their native environments. Arranging mini vape-fests at a nearby pub (making sure that it's a vape-friendly pub first!) and getting plenty of vapers to go - and inviting said politicians and reporters.... Seen some pretty positive things coming of that fact alone (ie, the article written by a smoking reporter who went down there). And gathering up somewhere before going to a public meeting didn't hurt either.

Also, bringing in family and in-laws who don't smoke to speak ... There was some of that last Monday and I think that helped as well.

 

[Thulium]

I definitely think there's something to be said about getting politicians, reporters, etc to come observe vapers in their native environments. Arranging mini vape-fests at a nearby pub (making sure that it's a vape-friendly pub first!) and getting plenty of vapers to go - and inviting said politicians and reporters.... Seen some pretty positive things coming of that fact alone (ie, the article written by a smoking reporter who went down there). And gathering up somewhere before going to a public meeting didn't hurt either.

Also, bringing in family and in-laws who don't smoke to speak ... There was some of that last Monday and I think that helped as well.

Not to mention...It was an absolute BLAST hanging out with everyone!!! Carl from Refind was giving out samples (his Jamaican Rum, btw, is fantastic!), Big Ice Dog was showing off all his favorite mods, Cathy was showing off her blinged-up batteries, and even the wait staff and random strangers were joining the fun.

That is the really sad unintended consequence of "tobacco denormaliztion"...Smokers have been painted for so long in such a bad light that we forget that people from all walks of life are smokers. In fact, some of the most creative and intelligent people in history were reknown smokers: Einstein, Lincoln, Roosevelt, C.S. Lewis, Freud ... Who wouldn't want to meet any one of those people in a bar sometime?? If you include the smoking of other substances then you're talking about almost the entire music and entertainment world.

What is wrong with discouraging smoking without discouraging smokers by insisting they quit using tobacco altogether?

 

[Placebo Effect]

Tacoma-Pierce County Health Department > News > Update on Proposed Tobacco Regulations

Update on Proposed Tobacco Regulations

May 25, 2011
The Tacoma-Pierce County Health Department’s mission is to safeguard and enhance the health of the communities of Pierce County. As part of its mission, the Health Department tackles emerging health risks through policy, programs and treatment in order to protect public health.

On May 4, 2011, the Health Department commenced a public process to collect feedback on two pieces of proposed tobacco regulations. This is the same process used to seek community input and provide it to the Board of Health before any regulations are implemented. For this matter, input was received via email, an online form and at the public meetings that took place on May 16 and 18, 2011.

The community was actively engaged in the issue, focusing primarily on the proposed e-cigarette regulations. We are very pleased with the level of engagement from the community, and appreciate the public discourse that has taken place thus far. Several themes emerged from the public feedback. They are:

* As a whole, the community agrees with and appreciates the changes implemented as a result of the Smoking in Public Places law enacted in 2005. They appreciate that dangerous secondhand smoke is no longer present in public places, both for health and aesthetic reasons, and support the proposed Chapter 8 regulations.

* Generally, the public agrees with the provision of Chapter 9 regulating the sale to and use of e-cigarettes by minors. Overwhelmingly, commentators stated that e-cigarettes are used primarily by adults trying to quit a smoking habit.

* Most of the commentators shared personal stories about e-cigarettes and how they have contributed to their success at quitting smoking or dramatically reducing the amount of cigarettes that they smoke. Due to their personal success, they feel that banning e-cigarettes in public places counteracts and interrupts their current success, and possibly discourages other smokers from attempting to quit.

The Health Department staff and leadership listened carefully to the feedback and took it into consideration. We still believe there is a lack of hard data to assure the public that e-cigarettes are safe for the user and bystanders, but at the same time we acknowledge that there is a similar lack of data that they are in fact harmful. While the scientific and regulatory communities will surely examine the safety of e-cigarettes for many years, we feel it is still appropriate to advance regulations that prudently protect the public from a risk that is not fully quantified.

However, as a result of the feedback we received, we believe it is appropriate to modify the original proposed e-cigarette regulation to allow the use of e-cigarettes in the following places:

* Public places where minors are lawfully prohibited,

* Places of employment that are not public places, and

* Retail outlets that exclusively sell or promote electronic smoking devices

Review the full regulation.

Over the next two years, we will continue to gauge public concern over e-cigarette use, available scientific data and information about the production and marketing of e-cigarettes. We will provide the Board of Health with a report on these issues so that they can reconsider this regulation in two years or earlier, if new evidence is found.

We are pleased at the outcome of the process, and believe the proposed regulation advances the health of the people of Pierce County. These two proposed regulations are scheduled for discussion and a vote at the June 1 Board of Health meeting.

Kim from Vaporium posted this on her store's FB page, and I replied with my my first thoughts:

‎"Electronic smoking devices and other unregulated nicotine delivery products have a high appeal to youth due to their high technology design and availability in child-friendly flavors."

Mr. Muri [who reads and has posted on the Vaporium FB page], please consider introducing an amendment to strip or modify this language. There is absolutely zero evidence to support this claim.

I also think Section 9(A) may need more specificity to ensure that bars / restaurants that permit minors during lunch and dinner, but not after 10 PM, can be certain that they are in the clear allowing e-cigarette usage during the night hours.

I hope your customers and everyone else in the Tacoma-Pierce County area continues to push for your original goal, which was to have e-cigs banned to minors and on school property. I hope a copy of this alternate ordinance will be introduced and voted upon.

Nonetheless, congrats Kim!

 

[sqirl1]

regulations sound reasonable enough. not quite as good as I would like them to decide, but they have the ability to listen and this is good. at least you can smoke in bars. they should change it from "lawfully prohibited" to just "prohibited". this way bowling alleys for example could have a time where nobody under 18 is allowed (like say past 9:00 PM or something) and allow vaping at that time. that would be a good start. they just want to be cautious is all! I think putting myself in the shoes of people who run the health department, this is a fair and reasonable move.

 

[DC2]

I think putting myself in the shoes of people who run the health department, this is a fair and reasonable move.

While I hear where you are coming from, I would have to respectfully disagree.
They are passing regulations based on no evidence, and that is not how America is supposed to work.

 

[DataPhreak]

In the end, i think these attempted bans are actually working in our favor. It's bringing light to the subject and allowing us to educate the public about the benefits to everyone's health that these provide. People are just scared. They need to know that this is technology at work! We have created the ultimate smoking cessation device. Well, the chinese have, but WE perfected it.

 

[sqirl1]

In the end, i think these attempted bans are actually working in our favor. It's bringing light to the subject and allowing us to educate the public about the benefits to everyone's health that these provide. People are just scared. They need to know that this is technology at work! We have created the ultimate smoking cessation device. Well, the chinese have, but WE perfected it.

^^^ this. while it's not perfect, they ACKNOWLEDGED things that many antis won't in 1 million years

While I hear where you are coming from, I would have to respectfully disagree.
They are passing regulations based on no evidence, and that is not how America is supposed to work.

oh absolutely. but like I said, put yourself in THEIR position. My theory is they probably like the idea of E-cigs, but with all the antis like CfTFK that are most likely up their asses, they have pressure on them to restrict E-cigs in some way shape or form, or they'll risk losing their jobs. they got a family to feed just like anybody else, and they want to make it look to the public like they always take the "better safe than sorry" approach. So while this is in fact unfair, I don't blame them at all, I blame the organizations that are probably manipulating and putting pressure on them, and I think its very generous that they gave vapers any room at all, and I think once the truth about E-cigs starts coming out, more and more vaping bans will get lifted there. all you guys did a good job planting the seed over there, keep up the good work!

 

[JustJulie]

While I hear where you are coming from, I would have to respectfully disagree.
They are passing regulations based on no evidence, and that is not how America is supposed to work.

While I agree this is a win, I also agree with DC2 . . . passing regulations based on "not enough evidence" isn't good government.

I also think that once the restrictions are on the books, even if they are revisited, they likely won't be removed. I suspect some excuse will be found to keep the status quo or, sadly, increase restrictions.

I believe the BOH's findings, the assumptions upon which it is passing regulations, are flawed:

SECTION 3: Findings
The Board of Health finds that the emergence of new, unregulated electronic smoking devices and unregulated nicotine delivery products presents a threat to the public health.

Electronic smoking devices, commonly referred to as electronic cigarettes or e-cigarettes, are battery operated devices, some of which closely resemble cigarettes, although they do not contain tobacco. People who use electronic smoking devices inhale vaporized liquid nicotine, or other liquids, created by heat through an electronic ignition system and exhale the vapor in a way that mimics smoking. In addition to electronic smoking devices, other unregulated nicotine delivery products have recently emerged on the market. These include bottled water products containing nicotine, sometimes referred to as "nico-water," and nicotine lollipops that taste and look exactly like regular candy lollipops but contain nicotine.

The United States Food and Drug Administration has conducted laboratory tests on numerous brands of electronic smoking devices and found that they contained toxic chemicals and carcinogens in addition to nicotine. Although some electronic smoking devices claim not to contain nicotine, there is no regulatory program to monitor this assertion. The United States Department of Health and Human Services has concluded that nicotine is as addictive as ....... or ...... and is a highly toxic substance.

Electronic smoking devices and other unregulated nicotine delivery products have a high appeal to youth due to their high technology design and availability in child-friendly flavors. They also present a substantial risk of nicotine addiction and resultant harm to the public health and safety. In addition, there are concerns that the use of electronic smoking devices in public places and places of employment could increase social acceptance of smoking, provide models for unhealthy behavior, and complicate enforcement of the state and local laws governing the smoking of tobacco products in public places.

http://www.tpchd.org/file_viewer.php?id=5539

The last paragraph is particularly troubling.

They state, without absolutely any evidence and as if it is a fact, that nicotine delivery products have a "high appeal" to youth. Where is the evidence of that?

As for nicotine addiction causing harm to public health and safety, it's not the nicotine that is the serious problem . . . it's inhaling the products of combustion.

As for vaping in public increasing social acceptance of smoking and providing models for unhealthy behavior (not to mention complicating enforcement of smoking prohibitions) . . .

Don't get me wrong . . . I'm glad the BOH has modified its hardline stance, and that in and of itself is a win. But I still think the BOH is on the wrong track here and is passing regulations on unproven threats and "facts" that aren't really facts, but, rather, opinions not even really based on fact. That's not good government.