New FDA regulations and effect on DIY?

[ColoKaren]

Key phrase that concerns me:

otherwise intended or reasonably expected to be used with ENDS are components subject to FDA's tobacco product authorities

 

[Exchaner]

If the government's real purpose was to protect kids, they could have done a much more effective job than creating these cumbersome regulations. I have visited some websites with sophisticated age-verification tools that work quite effectively - nearly impossible to bypass. They were not giant corporations either. I tried using a nick-name and failed. Used my real name and address and passed. Somehow they knew .... from my credit report? I hope not ... They did not ask for my SS#.

 

[rastapete69]

I heard back from Wizard Labs.
Along with a lot of suggested people in legislature to contact and other legalities, they seemed, like us, unsure how it will affect "chemical supplier of raw materials used in the manufacture of eliquids"

They did seem concerned about the "scope and expense of product registration fees, and the outcome of the final grandfather date for newly deemed tobacco products, which is currently in debate in the US House and US House Appropriations"

Interesting email reply from them, and I was left feeling that we still have time before needing to stock up or panic.

 

[JCinFLA]

I'm going to be very interested in see what effect, if any, the findings of e-cig studies, like what's being done at Moffitt Cancer Center in Tampa, FL right now and over the next 3 years, will have on how ecigs are regulated or classified in the next few years. The study is seeking to find out if e-cigs can/should be considered smoking cessation products/aids such as nicorette, nicotine patches, nasal inhalers, etc. all are now.

Based upon what I've personally been told by someone conducting the studies (since I'm a member of 1 of the study groups), they had many many more people interested in taking part in the on-going studies...who had already successfully stopped smoking with the help of vaping...than they needed for that particular group. Said they had calls for days after that group was filled, from more people who were qualified to be in it. They also had no problem filling up the group for people who are in the process of quitting with the help of vaping!

I just wish the study had started 3 years ago, so the findings could've maybe had an impact on what's happening now. Maybe the FDA could've been convinced by scientifc study results...that vaping truly IS a viable smoking cessation aid, and 1 that so far seems to have a much better success rate than all the other aids combined!

 

[MaxUT]

I have zero faith in the FDA. My belief is, overall they are worse than useless in protecting the public. Ask doctors for their opinion on that subject, you might be surprised by their answers.

It's big government taking another step to control our lives, as if they are the parents and we are the children. That's not liberty, it's a soft form of tyranny.

 

[mightymen]

Just my opinion.

It's here and it's now. Tobbaco business used they influence and power to get control of the ecig industry. Looks as though they have finally won. Even if we were to fight this all the way to the Supreme Court we wouldn't get all the regs nullified. Best to adapter. Stock up rotate supplies will get you through many years. It's the flavors that will be the hardest part to overcome. In the mean time support your vendors, write those letters and let your voice be heard and get on board. I'm 71 and have enough of equipment, nicotine, VG, pg and equipment to last ten years or more. Flavors because of shelf life being one to two years is the hardest part to overcome but you can bet your last dollar I'll get around that too.¡
It looks bleek but don't give up fight the SOB.

 

[b.m.]

Just my opinion.

It's here and it's now. Tobbaco business used they influence and power to get control of the ecig industry. Looks as though they have finally won. Even if we were to fight this all the way to the Supreme Court we wouldn't get all the regs nullified. Best to adapter. Stock up rotate supplies will get you through many years. It's the flavors that will be the hardest part to overcome. In the mean time support your vendors, write does letters and let your voice be heard and get on board. I'm 71 and have enough of equipment, nicotine, VG, pg and equipment to last ten years or more. Flavors because of shelf life being one to two years is the hardest part to overcome but you can bet your last dollar I'll get around that too.¡
It looks bleek but don't give up fight the SOB.

Flavors should never really be an issue to get,unless they are marketed as a vaping flavor.The big flavor companies were around long before vaping because they are food flavors,and were never intended for how we use them.Tfa is designed as food flavoring,Capella is food/drink flavoring,etc.,so as long as they don't start marketing their flavors as vape flavors,they should still be very easily obtainable.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Only if they submit to FDA testing and approval at 2 - 10 million a shot.

And a litre of 100 mg nic will not cost $105.00 anymore.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Far as I understand it (and there's a lot I don't understand), you can forget about Nude Nicotine. Apparently, Alchem (Nic Select) already has FDA approval FDA APPROVAL LETTER but I'm not clear on whether it's for the product or just the facility. Alchem probably has resources to obtain FDA approval, but who knows if they'll decide the cost of doing so is justifiable. Stands to reason that if the (DIY) market is lucrative enough (doubtful at this point) big pharma will go ahead and field a liquid nic product, but I'd expect prices to rise significantly from what we're paying now, among other hassles...imagine only being able to buy nic base only by prescription from a pharmacy.

But I wouldn't hold much hope that Nude Nicotine or Carolina Extracts would have the resources to obtain FDA approval.

There should be no issue with synthetic flavorings, VG/PG. Hence, we'll probably see a shift in DIY suppliers over the next few months to business models like Bull City. Flavors, PG, VG, bottles, lab equipment, and that's it.

NETs, tobacco absolutes...any flavor derived from real tobacco will probably also be gone, at least initially.

Just my best guesses though. I have not read all 499 pages yet, and may not be correctly interpreting what I have read.

Edit...I have my inquiry in with Nicotine River (nicselect vendor) as well.

That FDA letter is pure hogwash.

Also, NOBODY has any current FDA approval under the new Rule since it has not been passed into LAW yet.

 

[mightymen]

Flavors should never really be an issue to get,unless they are marketed as a vaping flavor.The big flavor companies were around long before vaping because they are food flavors,and were never intended for how we use them.Tfa is designed as food flavoring,Capella is food/drink flavoring,etc.,so as long as they don't start marketing their flavors as vape flavors,they should still be very easily obtainable.

Good response.

Did my research: seems flavored tea will work along with some simple to find everyday herbs and vanilla, mints etc. So even if they do stop there are quick alternative available. ALL IS WELL.

 

[dannyv45]

The problem is the selection of flavoring will be drastically reduced to a fraction of what it is today. Tobacco flavorings will be practically non existant. For me it may not be a big deal as I can extract my own tobacco flavoring but for those that may not have this experience it would make things difficult. I think the issue here is why should we have to sacrifice what we have today and find difficult work arounds or turn to black market methods. It's just another example of big tobacco and big government stepping on the rights of the little guy.

 

[b.m.]

Good response.

Did my research: seems flavored tea will work along with some simple to find everyday herbs and vanilla, mints etc. So even if they do stop there are quick alternative available. ALL IS WELL.

Oh yeah,i completely agree.No matter what they do,there will always be a way around it.I have done a few tea extracts,as well as tobacco and even made homemade vanilla extract,so yeah,there will always be around it.The biggest problem we will face is nicotine,i'm sure there is a way around that one too,i just haven't found it yet.I have a pretty good stock pile that will last several years,but will definitely be very actively looking for an alternative way to source that as well.They can regulate or ban whatever they want,it will not stop me from vaping,and i'm sure there are alot of others that feel the same way,so all these regs. will be pointless when we all figure out work arounds anyway.
I think most who diy already,have a pretty good grasp on how to do these things.I feel bad for all those who have known this time would come,and did nothing to prepare for it,those are the ones who will really suffer from this.I was hearing about all the Fda mess over 2 years ago when i started vaping,so i made a point to start stocking up on everything i could back then,and have continued to do so over the last 2 years.Obviously,people who are just starting haven't had much time to prepare,but i remember back then,and still have seen the same people very recently,say they have no interest in diy,and they don't need more than 1 mod and a couple tanks.These are the people that will truly suffer from this.

 

[Capt.shay]

Well Danny, it is that it is. That is why. It is FUBAR in all ways and manner but it is.

Over the next couple of years, WE right here in this little sub-forum are the front line. We must endeavor to help as many people as we can to learn the rudiments of mixing. We must not squabble amongst ourselves where the newbs are concerned. We must instead try be as civil as we can as we teach them disobedience of the law for civil disobedience of the law will be our only recourse.

Prepare for an onslaught of newbs cumming here and lets try to help them as much as we can. Things could change, things might get better but to quote Smokey Joe himself, "This has been an epic 9 year adventure, but it seems that it's all coming to a close. Very sad days indeed."

 

[jambi]

The problem is the selection of flavoring will be drastically reduced to a fraction of what it is today. Tobacco flavorings will be practically non existant.

Vast majority of flavorings are already approved for food use. They don't need FDA approval as tobacco products to stay on the market, and I don't see your reasoning on how that would change, even for "7 Leaves" or RY4 Extra. We've got a handful of cottage industry nets, LB, OSDIY, a few others that are specifically aimed at vape DIY. Those will run into trouble unless their marketing is re-routed. That's easy to do. So Bull City simply becomes "Flavor Extract Central".

I'll buy my Hangsen and SC directly from China, my Inawera from Poland if that's what it takes. How is the FDA going to stop me?

Basically, I don't understand your reasoning, particularly in regards to tobacco flavorings. Elaborate please.

I really think it's time we stopped hemming and hawing and got on to more constructive discussions of work arounds, because I'm not simply going to walk away from DIY just because some ....ing group of "thems" with an official title and their heads up their asses wants to try and restrict me. There's China. There's Mexico. There's already a ton of stuff on the market that isn't just going to disappear with an FDA snap. Inawera is surviving just fine in post regulation EU, so how are we going to keep our (smaller, cottage industry) suppliers surviving here?

I know you as a bright, knowledgeable guy, @dannyv45 ...a thinker. So let's start thinking.

 

[dannyv45]

Well Danny, it is that it is. That is why. It is FUBAR in all ways and manner but it is.

Over the next couple of years, WE right here in this little sub-forum are the front line. We must endeavor to help as many people as we can to learn the rudiments of mixing. We must not squabble amongst ourselves where the newbs are concerned. We must instead try be as civil as we can as we teach them disobedience of the law for civil disobedience of the law will be our only recourse.

Prepare for an onslaught of newbs cumming here and lets try to help them as much as we can. Things could change, things might get better but to quote Smokey Joe himself, "This has been an epic 9 year adventure, but it seems that it's all coming to a close. Very sad days indeed."

I could have said it no better myself and this is why I'm so angry. I spent so much time learning this craft and trying to help as many as I can. I myself know I will survive this with very little difficulty. I've prepared for this and at my age have enough stock piled to last me a life time. But it's those new to vaping or have not prepared that I'm sad for. I'll always be here to help and as you said they will need our help more then ever.

 

[dannyv45]

Vast majority of flavorings are already approved for food use. They don't need FDA approval as tobacco products to stay on the market, and I don't see your reasoning on how that would change, even for "7 Leaves" or RY4 Extra. We've got a handful of cottage industry nets, LB, OSDIY, a few others that are specifically aimed at vape DIY. Those will run into trouble unless their marketing is re-routed. That's easy to do. So Bull City simply becomes "Flavor Extract Central".

I'll buy my Hangsen and SC directly from China, my Inawera from Poland if that's what it takes. How is the FDA going to stop me?

Basically, I don't understand your reasoning, particularly in regards to tobacco flavorings. Elaborate please.

I really think it's time we stopped hemming and hawing and got on to more constructive discussions of work arounds, because I'm not simply going to walk away from DIY just because some ....ing group of "thems" with an official title and their heads up their asses wants to try and restrict me. There's China. There's Mexico. There's already a ton of stuff on the market that isn't just going to disappear with an FDA snap. Inawera is surviving just fine in post regulation EU, so how are we going to keep our (smaller, cottage industry) suppliers surviving here?

I know you as a bright, knowledgeable guy, @dannyv45 ...a thinker. So let's start thinking.

You are right I am angry and stuck in the political aspect of the entire situation. It's a very fluid situation and it's going to take a lot of marketing know how to angle around the regulations. I guess I'm stuck in "blowing off steam at the whole political situation" mode. I guess it's done so there's no sense in beating a dead horse. I see your point in It being time for constructive work around discussion and it needs to be discussed. My point as far as tobacco is the FDA is targeting tobacco products so tobacco flavoring will be a higher priority then most other flavorings and as such will create more of a gray area then other flavorings. Non tobacco flavoring can easily be re-marketed as food flavoring but in my opinion tobacco flavoring can in the eyes of the FDA be used as food, fragrance or vaping flavoring (the gray area) so they can apply more pressure on monitoring these flavorings or apply more pressure on the industry regarding regulation of these flavorings.

 

[jambi]

You are right I am angry and stuck in the political aspect of the entire situation. It's a very fluid situation and it's going to take a lot of marketing know how to angle around the regulations. I guess I'm stuck in "blowing off steam at the whole political situation" mode. I guess it's done so there's no sense in beating a dead horse. I see your point in It being time for constructive work around discussion and it needs to be discussed. My point as far as tobacco is the FDA is targeting tobacco products so tobacco flavoring will be a higher priority then most other flavorings and as such will create more of a gray area then other flavorings.

I agree with you too, and I understand your need to vent, but I think it's a bad idea to spread too much gloom and doom. The fact that there are lots of gray areas is actually in our favor when you think about it.

I think what we need right now are people who are versed in the legal aspects of marketing. I think of head shops selling scales, you know, the type used to weigh "precious gems". It's something like that.

Yesterday I was venting about all this to my mechanic friend. He took one look at my Sigelei Fuchai and said that he could make such a device easily with his machine shop and a 3d printer if I supplied him with the chip and display. Right there, that's progress.

It's certain we will not enjoy the extremely open market we have now. We need to toughen up to that. I think we're way too spoiled in that regard anyway. While you've been stocking up for doomsday, I've been experiencing life in markets that are less developed than ours. In fact, I began vaping in one, Mexico, which does not enjoy a market so flooded with cheap Chinese product. My favorite pre-made juice is a brand exclusive to Mexico. Probably so damned good because it's not the same old FW/CAP/TFA repetition we're so accustomed to believing is premium juice here. Bought it numerous times right online, just like in the US. There are guys there that were tooling up their own drippers with decks that resembled what we now know as the Velocity, and this was over two years ago. All my initial rebuildables, batteries, mods, accessories came from Fastech to me in MX, and this is a country where the sale of vaping products is technically banned. It can happen here. This is not doomsday!

 

[rastapete69]

I came to the vape world after a long hobby of cigar smoking.

Unfortuately, that hobby has seen its share of regulation, and for those who develop a taste for tobacco coming from an island south of Miami, the hoops that need to be jumped through are many, but doable.

Ironically, now that I am only an occasional cigar smoker and full time vaper, the hoops are lessening for the cigars and increasing for the vaping.

I love a challenge, and am pretty much only mixing tobacco favors, so I guess extracting is on the horizon

 

[Bob Chill]

The problem is the selection of flavoring will be drastically reduced to a fraction of what it is today. Tobacco flavorings will be practically non existant. For me it may not be a big deal as I can extract my own tobacco flavoring but for those that may not have this experience it would make things difficult. I think the issue here is why should we have to sacrifice what we have today and find difficult work arounds or turn to black market methods. It's just another example of big tobacco and big government stepping on the rights of the little guy.

This has me a little worried since I exclusively vape HS tobacco flavors. A couple things come to mind. Did HS sell concentrated flavoring in the US prior to the grandfather date? I assume the answer is no but they are certainly a pioneer in this industry so maybe there is a hole there.

If HS tobacco flavors aren't grandfathered, would HS have the means (or desire) to go through the approval process for their concentrates? They are a huge player globally and I'm sure it will effect HS if they can't sell their stuff here anymore.

Lastly, does anybody really think there will be a shipping barrier or anything from China? Will stuff get seized? Sure. Will stuff get through? Lots of it. At least in my opinion. FastTech isn't going anywhere. They sell all over the world. They don't have the best track record for caring about anything other than selling stuff fast and cheap.

I'm ok with unflavored though. I vape it from time to time and like it quite a bit. I suppose I could do my own NET's but would much prefer to stick with what I already love and the ease of mixing it.

 

[Bob Chill]

Crap, I answered one of my questions...Hangsen started in 2009. Bah!

That stupid 07 grandfather date is strategically ominous and unquestionably a prohibitionary move. Zeller saying it won't stifle but encourage innovation. OMG only a complete idiot could possibly see it that way.