Nic Base Storage: Freezer vs. Room Temp Experiment

[sofarsogood]

The interest in this topic comes from a concern that nic is vulnerable to environmental stress so if it's not stored optimally in might not last the 10-20 years many of us are hoping for.

I've smoked 10 year old cigars stored at room temperature and ambient humidity that still had their nic kick and even taste. The same goes for pipe tobacco. In nature the tobacco plant makes nic to discourage insect pests. It survives exposure to sun and moisture during the growing season. I read a document about tobacco agriculture that talked about nic as a water pollutant in local drainage by runoff from crop residue.

Sun light and oxygen tend too degrade the materials they come in contact with. Nic is not an exception. Cold tends too slow down chemical processes. The same is likely true for nic. Minimize contact with light and oxygen and keep cold.

 

[Toots]

When I first seen your pic you posted I thought I was gonna read how you met Stephen King and he vapes a Provari. Point being you look like Stephen King, fellow vapers am I crazy or does this dude look like S.K.?
Oh and that article saying don’t freeze your nic is wrong. Rossum has proven it and most of us have first hand experience as well. That’s how you knock a thread off the rails and put it back on the tracks with a single post. Tahdah

No way! Sofar is looking good! SK is ghoulish. Outstanding job, Sofar!

 

[sonicbomb]

1/3rd thru this thread. Taking a break.

Keep us updated on your progress.
In summary, yes you need to keep your nic base in the freezer or goes nasty looking and tasting.

 

[madstabber]

No way! Sofar is looking good! SK is ghoulish. Outstanding job, Sofar!

Ok I didn’t have my glasses on and it’s on a phone not a laptop so I have excuses. I just thought he met SK at a gym and had a story how he also vapes but like I said my eyesight is suspect, my apologies.
Side note:SK doesn’t look like a ghoul, I haven’t seen him in awhile but still, a ghoul. Also no offense intended Sofar, I wasn’t saying you look ghoulish in any way, shape, or form. I cannot comment on others looks in that way, you know, the whole “those who live in glass houses” proverb.

 

[mcduffy]

I wonder if the RT samples in glass would have fared better if they had been placed in a bowl to catch the overflow and filled to the top before being capped so that there was no air in the bottle. Maybe sealing the tops with paraffin.

 

[Rossum]

I wonder if the RT samples in glass would have fared better if they had been placed in a bowl to catch the overflow and filled to the top before being capped so that there was no air in the bottle. Maybe sealing the tops with paraffin.

Leaving absolutely no headspace is not a good idea. With no head space at all, even a small temperature rise will create a huge pressure increase. I do not wish to risk "exploding" bottles.

I'm doubt paraffin will improve the seal of a polycone cap on a glass bottle.

 

[puffon]

In theory a polycone cap does provide an air space (under the cone) without the air being exposed to the liquid.
I still leave a small amount (a couple threads) of air space, and thaw with the ambient air temp being the same or colder than when it was bottled.
I would guess a larger bottle would be more fragile than a smaller bottle.

 

[zoiDman]

I wonder if the RT samples in glass would have fared better if they had been placed in a bowl to catch the overflow and filled to the top before being capped so that there was no air in the bottle. Maybe sealing the tops with paraffin.

I think, as with Most Things, that one can reach a Point of Diminishing Returns.

 

[GOMuniEsq]

The interest in this topic comes from a concern that nic is vulnerable to environmental stress so if it's not stored optimally in might not last the 10-20 years many of us are hoping for.

I've smoked 10 year old cigars stored at room temperature and ambient humidity that still had their nic kick and even taste. The same goes for pipe tobacco. In nature the tobacco plant makes nic to discourage insect pests. It survives exposure to sun and moisture during the growing season. I read a document about tobacco agriculture that talked about nic as a water pollutant in local drainage by runoff from crop residue.

Sun light and oxygen tend too degrade the materials they come in contact with. Nic is not an exception. Cold tends too slow down chemical processes. The same is likely true for nic. Minimize contact with light and oxygen and keep cold.

Worth remembering that the nic in leaf tobacco is bonded to other molecules, making it a shelf-stable "salt nic". Freebase nic is artificially isolated, which makes it chemically alkaline and inclined to react with anything it can. That's why we need to take more aggressive steps to preserve it.

I just bought 1L of freebase 100mg and stored it in these brown 4oz glass bottles in my freezer. I filled them to the bottom of the neck for minimal headspace.

I had a little bit of nic left from last year, which was stored in a plastic bottle with an ever-increasing amount of headspace in the same freezer. I was able to compare year old vs fresh, and they had exactly the same color. So clearly the freezer method works.

Just as with aging wine, the enemies are oxygen and UV light, and cold slows down any undesirable reactions.

 

[mcduffy]

So is salt nic known not to oxidize much when left not refrigerated for extended periods?

 

[Rossum]

So is salt nic known not to oxidize much when left not refrigerated for extended periods?

That's a matter of some controversy. Some people think so, others do not.

Then there's also the question: What do you mean "salt nicotine"? You can protonate nicotine with pretty much any acid. Different vendors' salt nic formulas vary. Heck some vendors offer multiple different formulations.

 

[Bronze]

I already forgot what we concluded with regard to bottle sizes for long term storage. Is it OK to freeze/store liter size bottles then when needed years later break them down to, say, 125mg bottles and then refreeze? Of course we're altering the temp and introducing more oxygen but it is done only once. If I recall there were no issues doing this??

 

[GOMuniEsq]

So is salt nic known not to oxidize much when left not refrigerated for extended periods?

Think of freebase nic as young man eager to sow his wild oats, and salt nic as a happily married couple. When the young man goes out to town he's always trying to find a new lady to date. But he isn't particular about his women, so the relationships always fail spectacularly. To preserve him we need to keep him locked up in the house. But the married couple can go out on the town without breaking up or attracting any unwanted company.

 

[Rossum]

I already forgot what we concluded with regard to bottle sizes for long term storage. Is it OK to freeze/store liter size bottles then when needed years later break them down to, say, 125mg bottles and then refreeze? Of course we're altering the temp and introducing more oxygen but it is done only once. If I recall there were no issues doing this??

It's certainly better than keeping your liter size bottles at room temperature!

But I don't know anyone that sells nic base in liter-sized glass bottles. I've not seen much difference between glass and plastic in the freezer, but for long-term storage, I feel much better about glass than plastic.

As for "thawing" it out once or twice, I don't think there's a whole lot of harm to it. My sense at this point is that "degree days" is what matters.

 

[Bronze]

But I don't know anyone that sells nic base in liter-sized glass bottles.

The picture in CX appears to be a glass bottle.
https://www.carolinaxtract.com/_p/prd12/1907041705/product/1-liter-100mg-ml-nicotine-usp-pg-solution

 

[Bronze]

I've not seen much difference between glass and plastic in the freezer, but for long-term storage, I feel much better about glass than plastic.

My intuition agrees with you.

 

[Rossum]

The picture in CX appears to be a glass bottle.
https://www.carolinaxtract.com/_p/prd12/1907041705/product/1-liter-100mg-ml-nicotine-usp-pg-solution

That could easily be an "amber" (brown) PET plastic bottle.

 

[GOMuniEsq]

Plastic is microscopically porous and slowly allows gasses to permeate. Glass is nonporous. Winemakers know this. Just as we don't buy cabernet sauvignon in a plastic jug and expect it to be any good, so should we preserve our nicotine in glass. It might not make a noticeable difference in a year, but it will in a decade.

 

[zoiDman]

Plastic is microscopically porous and slowly allows gasses to permeate. Glass is nonporous. Winemakers know this. Just as we don't buy cabernet sauvignon in a plastic jug and expect it to be any good, we should preserve our nicotine in glass. It might not make a noticeable difference in a year, but it will in a decade.

Glass is also Basically Inert to Chemical Reactions for what we want to Use it For.

 

[CMD-Ky]

I've started reading this thread from the beginning. Got a ways to go yet. Anyway, it seems some buy liter-sized bottles of nic then break them down in smaller bottles and just keep one smaller bottle around for their current needs thus not exposing any more nic to the elements than they have to. Makes sense. Does anyone use a vacuum sealer to store their long term supply?

I do not and I don't break it into smaller bottles. I buy Argon purged 500ml bottles from Nude Nicotine, wrap them in bubble wrap for insulation during the de-frost cycles. I work on one bottle at a time. When I have with drawn the 18ml of nicotine from the bottle, I re-wrap it and stick it back in the freezer. It has worked for four years and nothing I have experienced leads me to change. If I was much younger, I might feel differently.
I do have a suspicion that the degradation of nicotine in a freezer at zero degrees may be over hyped. I am now preparing myself for those offended by my skepticism to rain down upon my grey head.