Nicotine Comparisons

[mhertz]

Thanks Kurt! I'm really glad to hear your explanation about water adding smaller droplets which increases nic absorbtion, as I guess that is the reason for the often stated opinion of water increases TH, which I didn't understand the chemistry behind. I generally don't feel any TH myself as a 3mg lunghit vaper, so haden't any experience with it to compare. In the beginning I was addicted to TH in addition to nic of-course, but later on I got addicted to the sensation of filling the lungs up with voluminous vaper instead. Nothing to do with cloud-chasing though, which I have no need or desire for.

@Kurt, If/when you have time, then water added to VG lowers boiling-point so runs hotter watt for watt, but doesn't this then mean that the dangerous temps of VG are happening faster i.e. at lower wattage? I'm referring to the charts posted previously about which temps adding significant carcinogens comparable or over cigarettes, but just for a few elements though of course, but still... Thanks! (e.g. if dangerous stuff happens at e.g. 470F for VG, then would VG with 8% water have the same happening at a lower temp?)

 

[mikepetro]

Thanks, Joel. I don't have a lot of time for ECF these days, but if I can explain some important science accessible to everyone, then it is worth the time.

We are certainly grateful when you do. It is hard to find someone with your credibility.

 

[puffon]

Thanks, Joel. I don't have a lot of time for ECF these days, but if I can explain some important science accessible to everyone, then it is worth the time.

Kurt, I remember reading one of your posts a few years ago, where you said you were vaping nic that was in freezer storage for 6 years, and was still good. Have you been vaping any nic that is now 9-10 years old?

 

[Kurt]

Kurt, I remember reading one of your posts a few years ago, where you said you were vaping nic that was in freezer storage for 6 years, and was still good. Have you been vaping any nic that is now 9-10 years old?

I would not have said this a few years ago. I never had anything that old, which would be from 2007/2008, and I was not vaping then. The oldest I had was from Fall of 2009, so about 7.5 years, Vermont Vapor but that is all vaped now as of this year. It never changed at all. Oldest ones I have now are 2011 Box Elder, 2012 EXC, and 2013 Wizard Lab (regular, Ice and Ultra). All in glass in freezer, and to my knowledge have not changed. Nor would I expect them to ever change: they are in glass and deep freeze (chest freezer). Essentially a chemical standstill. The Box Elder is 55 mg/mL VG-nic diluted from that landmark 272 mg/mL BE VG-nic sent to me to test, and which changed the world of vaping. It was already yellow-orange when I got it, and sat in LDPE and three freezer ziplocks in the freezer for years, until I diluted it (outside!) to 55 mg in glass. I cannot say if it changed as 272 mg in LDPE, but it probably did, being in LDPE. I don't care, since I actually enjoy some yellowed nics, and Box Elder was always one of my favorite "rough" nics, and this particular one, perhaps because of history and the impossibility of ever getting a nic like this again, is to me magnificent. Takes me right back to those heady days when quality control of DIY e-liquid had its first painful birth world wide. The market would not support this product now, even fresh, since virtually everyone wants an invisible nic.

Would absolutely love more of the Vermont Vapor 36 mg VG nic, but at $100 for 250 mL, I cannot rationalize the expenditure. But a great product, with aging bringing out maple/tobacco tones. Adam uses citric acid to lower the pH from about 10.4 to around 8-9, so this was actually the first salt solution that I was aware of (2009). But really expensive. He did this to lower the smell of working with the free-base nicotine he used, not to necessarily create a salt solution, although it does that.

 

[Plettschner]

Thanks for your insights, @Kurt. Very helpful.

 

[Katya]

I cannot say if it changed as 272 mg in LDPE, but it probably did, being in LDPE. I don't care, since I actually enjoy some yellowed nics, and Box Elder was always one of my favorite "rough" nics, and this particular one, perhaps because of history and the impossibility of ever getting a nic like this again, is to me magnificent. Takes me right back to those heady days when quality control of DIY e-liquid had its first painful birth world wide.

Oh, the Box Elder brouhaha. What would we have done without you, Kurt? You are and you have always been a life saver. Literally--in the case of Box Elder.

Thanks again!

 

[r77r7r]

Phooey. Was going to try some of the VV, but they are OOB.

 

[Katya]

Would absolutely love more of the Vermont Vapor 36 mg VG nic, but at $100 for 250 mL, I cannot rationalize the expenditure. But a great product, with aging bringing out maple/tobacco tones. Adam uses citric acid to lower the pH from about 10.4 to around 8-9, so this was actually the first salt solution that I was aware of (2009). But really expensive. He did this to lower the smell of working with the free-base nicotine he used, not to necessarily create a salt solution, although it does that.

Phooey. Was going to try some of the VV, but they are OOB.

Formerly Vermont Vapor, Inc.

"Vermont Vapor, Inc., ceased operations on February 28th, 2017. If you want to know why, check out our story."

For the record, I have tried several times in the past to order some of their 36 mg nic and they were always out of stock.

 

[mikepetro]

Here is Adam's (VV) recipe for 60mg VG unflavored concentrate, you can dilute further from there.
He did use a lot of water.
Oh, and if you do the math, the nic he used was obviously pure, you would have to adjust the recipe to whatever strength you have.

This is the citric he used in above:

60 mg/ml Unflavored Base (100 ml) (June, 2009)

71.6 ml Glycerol USP
17.9 ml distilled Water
6 g l-Nicotine USP
4.54 ml Citric Acid Solution

Combine glycerol, water and citric acid solution. Mix well. Chill to -5 C. Slowly add nicotine (stored at -5 C) while stirring until completely mixed.

*****************************************************

Citric Acid Solution (06/2009)

1 g Citric Acid USP (anhydrous)
1 ml Distilled Water

Heat water to above 120 deg. F., slowly add citric acid while stirring until all is dissolved and solution is clear (a very, very pale yellow).

 

[Katya]

This is the citric he used in above:

Hey, Mike. NN sells CA solution, ready to go. Do you think it would do?

Citric Acid Solutions (5-15%) - Nude Nicotine

 

[mikepetro]

Hey, Mike. NN sells CA solution, ready to go. Do you think it would do?

Citric Acid Solutions (5-15%) - Nude Nicotine

Sure it would work, but I dont know how close it would match the VV stuff if thats what you are after.

VV used ~4.5% in theirs, targeting a specific pH value. From playing around with the citric acid I have found that % is not linear across different nic concentration. In other words 4.5% works at 60mgl to get you around the 8pH target, but make some 36ml and the % changes to achieve that same 8pH. I have been playing with citric and pH and trying to figure out the curve, but I am not there yet.

Also, a pH of 8 is what Adam used, I have found that even lower pH values get smoother yet. I did some at 40mg at a pH of 6.5 and it was deceptively smooth, too smooth for me as I like some TH in my vape.

 

[mikepetro]

Hey, Mike. NN sells CA solution, ready to go. Do you think it would do?

Citric Acid Solutions (5-15%) - Nude Nicotine

BTW, citric acid is easy to find and using Adam's recipe for the solution is easy as pie too.

https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Spices-...8&qid=1491178387&sr=1-16&keywords=citric+acid

 

[Katya]

Fascinating. I've been adding a drop of plain lemon juice to my ejuices forever--just to round out the flavors and because I really liked it that way. And ACV (acetic acid). Have I been creating my own nicotine salts without even knowing it?

 

[mikepetro]

Fascinating. I've been adding a drop of plain lemon juice to my ejuices forever--just to round out the flavors and because I really liked it that way. And AVC (acetic acid). Have I been crating my own nicotine salts without even knowing it?

To a certain degree, yes.

 

[Katya]

To a certain degree, yes.

Hah! I'm so proud of myself.

BTW, when you figure out the exact percentage of CA needed for 12 mg/ml base, let me know.

 

[mikepetro]

Hah! I'm so proud of myself.

BTW, when you figure out the exact percentage of CA needed for 12 mg/ml base, let me know.

It is going to be a "matter of personal taste". How smooth do you want it. At 12mg nic I would start at 1% CA and go up or down from there. That should put you close to Adams mix, but let your vape be your guide on adjustments.

 

[Katya]

It is going to be a "matter of personal taste". How smooth do you want it. At 12mg nic I would start at 1% CA and go up or down from there. That should put you close to Adams mix, but let your vape be your guide on adjustments.

Thanks, Mike.

BTW, the forum is freezing up on me again--can't scroll up and down... Is it just me?

Anyway, gotta run. TTFN

 

[gt_1955]

Sure it would work, but I dont know how close it would match the VV stuff if thats what you are after.

VV used ~4.5% in theirs, targeting a specific pH value. From playing around with the citric acid I have found that % is not linear across different nic concentration. In other words 4.5% works at 60mgl to get you around the 8pH target, but make some 36ml and the % changes to achieve that same 8pH. I have been playing with citric and pH and trying to figure out the curve, but I am not there yet.

Also, a pH of 8 is what Adam used, I have found that even lower pH values get smoother yet. I did some at 40mg at a pH of 6.5 and it was deceptively smooth, too smooth for me as I like some TH in my vape.

Mike, shouldn't it be almost linear given that, in the main it's the nic that's basic?

Tapatalk: I don't have an iPhone

 

[mikepetro]

Mike, shouldn't it be almost linear given that, in the main it's the nic that's basic?

Tapatalk: I don't have an iPhone

I think it is linear on a chemical level, but not at a simple recipe level.

In other words you cant just say add X% to any recipe. But I think it would be linear per mg of nic. X amount of CA will protonate Y amount of nic.

 

[gt_1955]

Agreed, I meant ... if 60mg/ml requires 4.5% CA, then 30mg/ml requires 2.25% CA etc

Tapatalk: I don't have an iPhone