Nicotine Comparisons

[Kurt]

I just started DIY with juice a couple of weeks ago. I did MUCH reading here on the forums before making my first attempt, including reading the entire "nicotine comparisons" thread before even buying my nicotine.

I am stocking up before 8/8 so I bought 10 liters of nicotine from two different vendors that were recommended here on the forums. It took me about a week to rebottle everything into the amber Boston round bottles.

The rest of my comments on this will go to show that everyone has personal tastes so no-one can fully recommend what others should do.

I bought 8 liters from one vendor and bottled those first. They were in 100% vg and looked very clear in color and only had a very slight odor to them. I thought, this is great, I bought the good stuff ! Then I bottled the 2 liters from the other vendor's nicotine (less recommended vendor) and was disappointed to find that their's was quite pink, I was expecting maybe light brown, but not pink and it had more of a robust scent to it. I was a little bummed by this after all that I have read here.

So I decide to use the pink stuff up first since it didnt appear as fresh as my other 8 liters.

It was difficult waiting for it to steep because I was eager to try my own stuff. I helped it a long a bit with a warm bath and only waited 1 week to try it.

And now I know what is meant by "peppery" taste. There is no mistaking it. But I LOVE that peppery taste so now I wish I had bought all 10 liters from the second vendor LOL.

Just goes to show ......

Slight pink or peach color is not uncommon and not considered a problem. I would not worry about it. Its just trace nic oxidation products, which are not harmful, and often add nice character to a nic.

The "pepper" term was originally meant to describe the nasal tingle or burn that some nics give, rather than the taste of pepper, like black pepper. Both are possible, of course, but that is what is generally meant by pepper. VT Throat-Hit was originally called Pepper Nic, due the nasal tingle that the added oxidation gave. Generally the more deep the color is, the more pepper it will have. I am a fan of pepper, since it helps to tell me how much nic I'm getting, and it adds to the satisfaction.

Most nic is shipped in PET bottles, being safer and lighter than glass during shipment. PET is better at keeping O2 out than polyethylene plastic, but it can leach plasticizers over time into the nic, causing a plastic taste as well as health concerns, so getting it into glass ASAP is best for storage.

10 L is a lot! I bet getting it all into glass and storage was quite a satisfying experience!

Fact: if you just let some nic sit out for a while in LDPE bottles (normal dropper bottles), as it gets colored it will gain pepper, TH and possible a slight tobacco-like taste (although not always). So that nic that you think now is too "invisible" can definitely be improved! This can take months, however, especially VG-nic. But when it gets to where you like it, you can freeze it in glass and keep it like that forever. Been doing this for a few years, with excellent results. I like that completely invisible nic is available, since it is ultra-pure, but I personally find it boring and without that sensory feedback, I tend to vape too much nic.

Always best to get 120 mL samples of any nic you are considering buying in bulk. But too little character with time can be fixed. Too much of the wrong character, as is the case with some of the rougher nics, cannot be fixed.

 

[Saippenu]

Slight pink or peach color is not uncommon and not considered a problem. I would not worry about it. Its just trace nic oxidation products, which are not harmful, and often add nice character to a nic.

The "pepper" term was originally meant to describe the nasal tingle or burn that some nics give, rather than the taste of pepper, like black pepper. Both are possible, of course, but that is what is generally meant by pepper. VT Throat-Hit was originally called Pepper Nic, due the nasal tingle that the added oxidation gave. Generally the more deep the color is, the more pepper it will have. I am a fan of pepper, since it helps to tell me how much nic I'm getting, and it adds to the satisfaction.

Most nic is shipped in PET bottles, being safer and lighter than glass during shipment. PET is better at keeping O2 out than polyethylene plastic, but it can leach plasticizers over time into the nic, causing a plastic taste as well as health concerns, so getting it into glass ASAP is best for storage.

10 L is a lot! I bet getting it all into glass and storage was quite a satisfying experience!

Fact: if you just let some nic sit out for a while in LDPE bottles (normal dropper bottles), as it gets colored it will gain pepper, TH and possible a slight tobacco-like taste (although not always). So that nic that you think now is too "invisible" can definitely be improved! This can take months, however, especially VG-nic. But when it gets to where you like it, you can freeze it in glass and keep it like that forever. Been doing this for a few years, with excellent results. I like that completely invisible nic is available, since it is ultra-pure, but I personally find it boring and without that sensory feedback, I tend to vape too much nic.

Always best to get 120 mL samples of any nic you are considering buying in bulk. But too little character with time can be fixed. Too much of the wrong character, as is the case with some of the rougher nics, cannot be fixed.

Hmmn well I am just wrong then, it tastes like black pepper to me and there is nothing harsh or burning, it is very smooth. Maybe it's just that I use a crappy brand ( made in B&M local store and is very candy like) and my own is just so different. I can taste multiple hints of different flavors in it. It may also be coming from the tobacco flavoring that I am adding to it. Something spicy which I identified as pepper since I had read about that here. Thanks for clarifying for me. I'd hate to give a vendor a bad rep even though I myself like it.

At first I felt bad about all the nicotine I was bottling. I felt like a needed a hazmat trash container for the waste products but I am getting over that now. It does make me feel good to know that I have my two closest friends and myself covered for quite some time.

I didn't get samples first because I was panicking about the deeming. I can't go back to cigs (haven't touched one in years) and I didn't want my friends to either.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. The light pink coloring did make me a little nervous.

 

[mhertz]

Nic can also have an actual taste of black pepper(as Kurt stated), instead of the more usual nasal tingle pepper effect. I've had that only once in a nic from china, but long-timers state that it was more prevalent in the older days.

I just got a new batch of nicselect to test out and a new chemnovatic too, as I again wanna see what the differences is, lol, but the nicselect is very slight pink, whereas it was clear the last 5 bathes or so, but ecx is often pink i've heard. I get my nicselect from a vendor which just rebottles the nic and gets it already diluted down by alchem, or well a pharma-subcontractor of theres... Looking foreward to testing both nics side-by-side this evening, although I have already tasted the chemnovatic yesterday which is really nice with a very slight tobacco taste and adds some nice depth/mouth-feel to the VG/slight-water and otherwise no extra imparted flavor. Also only low TH, which I don't mind as dripping at high-power and direct-lung-inhaling, so get fine TH anyways even at 3mg...

 

[Ladiekali]

The pink nicotine with the pepper is from Ecig Express and the clear stuff was from RTS. I haven't tried the RTS yet so for all I know I will taste pepper in it also. I sure hope so ! I have a nose like a bloodhound so I may taste things that way too, not sure since I can't try on other people's taste buds to compare

I can see why people using lighter flavors wouldn't want the pepper but for my recipe it just gives it a nice kick. I may need to find pepper flavoring for my other 8 liters LOL. Then again I am making juice for 2 other people and one of them is a Teaberry user. She may appreciate the non-peppery in her recipes.

i'm curious to what nic level you are vaping... i have ecig express 70vg at 6 nic and don't taste any pepper. are you vaping stronger than 6 nic??? and what vg/pg ratio are you using?

i once tried diy a few years ago and used wizard labs... but nothing i made turned out it was very harsh and the nic, diluted to 12 nic back then and 50/50 mix, smelled similar to an ashtray... i still had like 500 ml, i just threw them away, it was a brownish color and had that same smell.

 

[Saippenu]

I

i'm curious to what nic level you are vaping... i have ecig express 70vg at 6 nic and don't taste any pepper. are you vaping stronger than 6 nic??? and what vg/pg ratio are you using?

i once tried diy a few years ago and used wizard labs... but nothing i made turned out it was very harsh and the nic, diluted to 12 nic back then and 50/50 mix, smelled similar to an ashtray... i still had like 500 ml, i just threw them away, it was a brownish color and had that same smell.

I am making it at 12mg. The nicotine is in 100% vg. My end product is 50/50. It is most likely the tobacco flavoring that is giving it that pepper taste. It isn't harsh at all, just spicey. I never tried the nic flavorless so can't really say how it tastes by itself

 

[Ladiekali]

ahhh, ok. I have had nic that had that pepper taste before... on some flavors it wasn't bad at all. that was back in my 12 nic days lol. my ecigexpress is clear, but it's diluted already to 6 mg nic.

 

[Tommy-Chi]

Fingers are crossed for NN to have a sale! Does anyone know if the had a 4th of July sale last year?

Nude Nicotine sale?

I talked to Chris from Nude Nicotine twice over the last two months and he said NN would have a sale if they could get caught up with orders. They are swamped due to FDA Deeming.

Will they ever have a sale again? I do not know.

I have two credit cards coming my way with $1,500 available if they do have a sale. I do not plan on buying $1,500 worth of nicotine, but I will buy 2 gallons, 500ml, 100mg/ml over the next three to four months.

I applied for and rcvd $500 in credit with PayPal Credit but then saw that they did not accept PayPal at NN.

 

[mhertz]

Nicselect, even pink, is completelly void of any tobacco taste(well mine is ), whereas the chemnovatic(VT's source) does have an tobacco taste imho... If you want a non-tobacco nic, then get it cheap e.g. at NR or other nicselect vendor... Based on there COAs, then it's pretty hard to make "crazy-clean" nic any cleaner imho

I recommend everyone to do "blind-testings" for themselves, as it has been shown numerous times that the infuence of "common-opinion" is highly "suggestive"...

 

[440BB]

Nicselect, even pink, is completelly void of any tobacco taste(well mine is ), whereas the chemnovatic(VT's source) does have an tobacco taste imho... If you want a non-tobacco nic, then get it cheap e.g. at NR or other nicselect vendor... Based on there COAs, then it's pretty hard to make "crazy-clean" nic any cleaner imho

I recommend everyone to do "blind-testings" for themselves, as it has been shown numerous times that the infuence of "common-opinion" is highly "suggestive"...

So true! We are so easily convinced that one thing is much better than another when the differences are negligible. Sometimes it strikes me as funny that many smokers who bought the same basic pack of smokes for many years have now become so picky and somewhat elitist about their vape.

Good thing we have DIY as an example of how little price has to do with quality in many cases.

 

[mhertz]

Agreed, mate.

I've always been slight "crazy" though and tested a bunch of cigarette-brands before settling and even then revisiting said tests later on just to make sure I didn't missed anything last time around - nothing's new there, lol... I found out I preffered a pure virginia, but not golden, but matured(orange-brown instead of yellow) and no added stuff, just tobacco itself, VS the popular US blends of virginia, toasted/sugared burley, oriental and other toppings added e.g. liquorish, rom and coco etc... Maybe this is a europe thing, and not called US blend in the US, lol...

Good times, sorry for drifting away in memories/off-topic...

 

[mhertz]

Taste is subjective, so the only true test of good/best nicotine is the purity as per GC/MS test(or likewise) measured according to pharma-specs...

Lets compare purities of nude-nic, VT and nicselect based on there COAs provided...

Annoyingly, nude-nicotine only publishes one COA that's from 04/10-2014. The COAs of nicselect from that time are the same as now so unless NN has better values now, then we can still compare them somewhat atleast... VT's COA are recent, but is extremely annoying because just states according to spec on several key points instead of listing actual values i.e. when a test-element has 0.3% allowed, they list according to spec, where e.g. nicselect and NN states under 0.05%.

Both NN and nicselect has under the detection limit on each of the other alkaloids than nic(under 0.05%), which gives the tobacco taste, and chemnovatic just lists according to spec i.e. under 0.3% for all of the alkaloids tested for. Total impurity amount is under the detection limit for nicselect i.e. under 0.05%, and NN is 0.09% and chemnovatic states again under spec which is under 0.8%. Last important value is non-aqueous assay which is 100% for nicselect and at older times as much as 100.5% and NN is 99.97 min. and VT 99.9%. Note, Kurt states these values include water and other alkaloids, but they are stated to be tested non-aqueous, but even then, nicselect and NN has all alkaloids individually under detection limit of under 0.05%, and we just know that chemnovatic is under 0.3% for each alkaloid tested, and the water of NN is 0.35%, and for chemnovatic and nicselect 0.07/0.08%.

I hear cxtc sends out COAs with each order, so if anybody that has ordered from them could please take a pic and post the coa here, thanks.

In short, unless someone can provide a COA proving higher purity than nicselect, then imho then nicselect is the currently purest nicotine out there...

Alchem which makes nicselect is from 1935 and has 1000+ employees, so they do know a thing or two about nic and processing it I would guess. The nicselect brand was made as a vaping-grade nic where they do an extra cleaning to there nic(kurt stated inert-gas distilation or something, when he called it crazy-pure nic, and which is an extra cleaning process to remove the very last traces of the other alkaloids which gives nic it's tobacco taste.)

I have heard a lot of bad stories about ECX though, so either they don't blend or store the nic optimally or else they are really unlucky with bad batches. Personally if I was from the states I would shop at nicotine-river, since it has a really good reputation as from what i've read and the owner sounds great/professional and states to always exchange your product if somehow bad... They have a very close relationship with alchem and they(alchem) even flew down to meet nicotine-river personally, all the way from india... I've bought VG from them, which is the best tasting i've tried yet among 10+ and also has highest purity possible(99.9% glycerol).

Also, btw, Kurt stated this once:

"I never tried the Alchem that was off in taste, but I heard about it. Original Alchem was like WL Ice...in fact, I would not be surprised if WL Ice WAS Alchem."

The nicselect in the beginning had bad batches reported, with rubbery taste, but hasen't been reported in a long time and the VP of alchem in the US states they have fixed these issues long ago, and my last 3 batches over the last 6 months or more, has been exactly the same with same clear color(last batch though was clear with very small pinkish hue), smell and taste, but I also got it from a great nicselect vendor in UK("great" here refers to mixing and storing it properly so as to not taint the original quality from the source)... It was related to the change of using full leaves instead of just waste tobacco... Jimi guesses the wl-ice nic was cleaned by chemnovatic, and a person once in this thread stated it was XV, which originates from china, but I would guess alchem where a much more likely guess considering the "crazy-pure" COAs and the timing of both products I believe also fits pretty good together...

Lastly, please note that nicselect, although doesn't taste like tobacco at all, does have a taste nonetheless, as all nic does im confident in Nicotine isn't tasteless, just like PG and VG isn't either I'm talking unflavored here, btw... With flavoring added, then no taste to detect... I really like also that alchem doesn't BS as others do by stating no flavor or odor, but instead is honest and states slight pleasant flavor and odor and blends easily in with flavoring...

I have for a long time tried to find out which nic to use for stocking up with, as I want the best(purity) I can get, and since nic here is 3 times more expensive than in the US and i'm on a tight budget currently, then it has been hard to decide, but I think i've now finally settled on what to get, finally

 

[Dreamer13]

My apologies for an off topic question. Can anyone recommend an Amazon supplier to purchase bulk 15ml plastic bottles from at a reasonable price? Or any supplier for that matter. PM with link or name please and thank you so very much! There are so many to choose from and I don't want to get burned buying 50 bottles from China and they all have leaking issues or pin holes. I don't mind buying overseas, or wanting for the shipment, I would just like to have a better idea of which vendors have had the best products.

I've been mixing samples like crazy and realized I really don't have enough small bottles for taste testing. I've been saving all the bottles I've purchased premixed juice from and have a good supply of glass is 30 and 60 thankfully.

Once I find recipes I want to make bigger batches and finally add nicotine to I will gladly give my thoughts on the Nude Nicotine 50mg max VG I have waiting on me.

 

[AzPlumber]

My apologies for an off topic question. Can anyone recommend an Amazon supplier to purchase bulk 15ml plastic bottles from at a reasonable price? Or any supplier for that matter. PM with link or name please and thank you so very much! There are so many to choose from and I don't want to get burned buying 50 bottles from China and they all have leaking issues or pin holes. I don't mind buying overseas, or wanting for the shipment, I would just like to have a better idea of which vendors have had the best products.

I've been mixing samples like crazy and realized I really don't have enough small bottles for taste testing. I've been saving all the bottles I've purchased premixed juice from and have a good supply of glass is 30 and 60 thankfully.

Once I find recipes I want to make bigger batches and finally add nicotine to I will gladly give my thoughts on the Nude Nicotine 50mg max VG I have waiting on me.

Take a look at U.S. Plastic Corp.

 

[aikanae1]

There is a thread for supplies. I think it's a sticky. There are good sources listed there. The prices can vary quite a bit even with the same vender because of specials.

Sent from my LGLS992 using Tapatalk

 

[Kurt]

COAs are good to post, but COAs for each batch of nic are generally not posted, and nics can change subtly from batch to batch and have virtually the same COAs. I believe it is the spectrum of TRACE components (nic-oxides, alkaloids, etc) that dictates the taste of a nic, or the lack thereof. We are very sensitive to taste of some compounds, but often differently sensitive. Alchem, about 4 years ago, went through a phase where the nic they were supplying had more taste than people wanted, after months of tasteless nic. COAs were virtually the same, but the taste was not only present, but off-putting.

Kurt states these values include water and other alkaloids, but they are stated to be tested non-aqueous

Non-aqueous titration, also known as a Karl-Fischer titration, includes water, as well as other alkaloids, in the overall yield of nicotine. The method uses pyridine as the solvent, not water, which is why it is called "non-aqueous". The method cannot differentiate nicotine from other alkaloids, nor from water content. It is inexpensive, compared to better methods like GC-FID or quant GC-MS, and it inevitably makes the nicotine purity look closer to 100% than it actually is. It also has an intrinsic uncertainty of about +/- 1%, which is about as good as you can ever do with titration. But USP monograph for nicotine states that the nicotine shall not be less than 99%, as measured by non-aqueous titration.

So if you have 0.5% water, not uncommon, and 0.1% alkaloids, also not uncommon, the maximum purity for nicotine ITSELF is 99.4% pure, ignoring residual solvents, heavy metals, etc. Karl-Fischer could well say it is 100%, and that is a perfectly valid value, based on the USP criteria for how USP-grade nicotine is analyzed for purity.

See if you can get ANY vendor to understand any of this, let alone communicate it honestly to you. AEMSA members understand this, and some are doing their own analysis of nic. There is a new method using near-IR that a manufacturer can do easily and accurately, with rapid response. Very new, still beta, but quite promising, especially for larger companies that can afford the service.

COAs tell you if the nic is USP-grade, but in terms of alkaloids, oxides, some labs report the results differently, as in "meets specs" vs some actual numeric result. The devil is in the details with taste, I beleive, that is, WHAT alkaloids are present, and in what ratio? Same with oxides, which ones, how much? This I believe is where the majority of taste comes from, and I think certain alkaloids or oxides can not only add flavor, but depending on relative amounts, make very different flavors.

Fact: very few here would ever want to vape a nic that is just barely meeting USP criteria. The taste would probably be too strong. Most of the nics discussed here are probably well beyond USP specs, but can still have considerable taste. What leads to particular tastes is still conjecture, and would take considerable money to study.

 

[Boxster]

My apologies for an off topic question. Can anyone recommend an Amazon supplier to purchase bulk 15ml plastic bottles from at a reasonable price? Or any supplier for that matter. PM with link or name please and thank you so very much! There are so many to choose from and I don't want to get burned buying 50 bottles from China and they all have leaking issues or pin holes. I don't mind buying overseas, or wanting for the shipment, I would just like to have a better idea of which vendors have had the best products.

I've been mixing samples like crazy and realized I really don't have enough small bottles for taste testing. I've been saving all the bottles I've purchased premixed juice from and have a good supply of glass is 30 and 60 thankfully.

Once I find recipes I want to make bigger batches and finally add nicotine to I will gladly give my thoughts on the Nude Nicotine 50mg max VG I have waiting on me.

The bottles I bought on Amazon (from China) were crap, loose tips, leaks, bottles that split, etc.

My favorite bottles came from containerandpackaging.com
https://www.containerandpackaging.com/item/B443
Wide mouth bottles (easier to fill)
Choice of tips and color caps (not child resistant)
only negative is that you have to purchase at least $50.00 or you pay a $10.00 small order fee.

Myfreedomsmokes sells these same bottles but only with white caps and the tips are the controlled type (tiny hole). I widen the hole with a large paper clip.
15ml Plastic Dropper Bottle

I've also bought bottles from HeartlandVapes.
Needle tips with choice of color caps & child resistant.
Only negatives are that:
minimum 100 bottle order ( $26.99 + shipping for 15ml bottles)
small mouth bottle need a steady hand or funnel to fill
I have to scuff the bottle to get labels to stick.

 

[Dreamer13]

There is a thread for supplies. I think it's a sticky. There are good sources listed there. The prices can vary quite a bit even with the same vender because of specials.

Sent from my LGLS992 using Tapatalk

I've pretty much searched everywhere on here that makes sense and haven't found stuff on bottles. Sometimes I think this forum is too big.

 

[mhertz]

Thanks alot Kurt for your detailed and informative post, appreciated.

Thanks for clearing the water part up of the assay values also.

Alchem makes COAs for every single batch and e.g. nicotine-river have a dozen or so listed on there page, but some of the newer ones is missing, but I believe we could get them easilly from nicotine-river or even alchem themselves maybe. My nicselect vendor also states to just write in order info if wanting the full COA and not just the for the alchem-self-diluted-product.

I believe the off-taste of nicselect is gone since long, as not seen reports of rubbery nic which was the description at the time from some years ago. and not that it says much but my last 3 batches where alike, and also the customers at nicotine-river seems very content often as per what i've read. At my UK shop there's 101 positive 4-5 star reviews too.

I fully understand that it is the alkaloids and other impurities that makes the tobacco or off taste(other impurities), but alchem has under detection limit of all the alkaloids on each batch i.e. under 0.05%. Also the sum of all impurities is under detection limit of under 0.05%. Water is 0.07 to 0.08, where e.g. the NN where 0.35 and 0.09 for all impurities. If we so take the under 0.05 for all-alkaloids/impurities and the 0.07 water and detract that from the assay of 100 - 100.5%, then we indeed have crazy pure nic without tobacco taste, as per my findings subjectively.

I'm just saying that unless we get a bad batch of nicselect, which we also can get with every other manufacturer, then nicselect imho is the purest nicotine out there, unless a COA is posted disproving this claim... CXTC for instance, use US labour, and US tobacco and nitrogen/argon and cold-filtering and what not, but still numbers don't lye, and I highly suspect they aren't any cleaner(without seeing the COA, but they do state on site: "99.902% Average Batch Purity" - copy/pasted and not my emphasis here)... I haven't tried it so cant say anything about it of course, and it's possible it indeed tastes better(in blind-testing), but i'm just here talking bare numbers and not subjectivism...

 

[IDJoel]

15ml plastic bottles from at a reasonable price?

I have purchased (and use them daily) both the 15 &30 mL unicorn bottles from One Stop DIY Shop. Here's the link. At 0.50$ a piece, and your choice of size, I find them hard to beat. I've got 20 of each with some of them being over a year old and have had no issues with leaks or breaking down.

I will say, if you haven't used unicorn bottles before, they are a little bit more unstable than glass or boston rounds while mixing because they are narrow, light, and tall (esp. the 15mL). That said; I have yet to knock one over while mixing. If you're concerned about an accidental spill just place in a shot glass or small beaker while mixing. The narrow shape is great in a pocket and the tip is also narrow and great for filling even difficult tanks.

 

[Mowgli]

My apologies for an off topic question. Can anyone recommend an Amazon supplier to purchase bulk 15ml plastic bottles from at a reasonable price?

Amazon.com : Vktech 50pcs 15ml Empty Plastic Squeezable Dropper Bottles