Nicotine Comparisons

[r77r7r]

Here's Vermont Vapor's recipe for using citric acid-
Citric Acid Solution (06/2009)

1 g Citric Acid USP (anhydrous)
1 ml Distilled Water

Heat water to above 120 deg. F., slowly add citric acid while stirring until all is dissolved and solution is clear (a very, very pale yellow).

 

[dansus]

Yeah, I'm reading up on it now. What have you found that put you off?

Lost of small things rather than anything major, its still on possibles list.

H372: Causes damage to organs through prolonged or repeated exposure [Danger Specific target organ toxicity, repeated exposure - Category 1]

 

[gt_1955]

Got a juul in to try the juice. Not sure what the fuss is about, my DIY at lower nic hits harder.

Odd.

Which one mate, the 0.5% 24mg, the 1% 48mg or the 2% 72mg diluted to 1% 36mg?
And I take it they were all benzoic acid, not citric acid?

 

[dansus]

The 1% benzo 48mg blows it out the water. Juul feels more like 0.75% 24mg, its very smooth but didnt give me much of a nic hit. Bare in mind my unit doesnt seem to be working correctly, but i sucked out the juice and vaped on it in the BO One.

Also consider ive consumed enough nic in the last few days to give a lab rat nightmares. I wouldnt go above 1% benzo 36mg for now.

Inspired by the citric acid results, im trying 0.75% benzo, 0.25% citric 36mg.

 

[gt_1955]

The 1% benzo 48mg blows it out the water. Juul feels more like 0.75% 24mg, its very smooth but didnt give me much of a nic hit. Bare in mind my unit doesnt seem to be working correctly, but i sucked out the juice and vaped on it in the BO One.

Also consider ive consumed enough nic in the last few days to give a lab rat nightmares. I wouldnt go above 1% benzo 36mg for now.

Inspired by the citric acid results, im trying 0.75% benzo, 0.25% citric 36mg.

Cheers mate

(wish I knew where I could get benzo from locally )

 

[Capt.shay]

Case in point to the optical theory. Top mason jar is uncut nicotine, beaker on bottom is the exact same nic diluted to 100mgl with pg. Notice the difference in color, and they both came out of the same master bottle on the same day.

Looking at the two samples, one could "think" the top nic was more degraded. But that is not the case.

I'm pretty sure that if that mason jar contained uncut nicotine and you weren't wearing a resperator, you would be dead now. Since you were able to post this, I'm guessing that it is not 100% undiluted nicotine.

 

[mikepetro]

I'm pretty sure that if that mason jar contained uncut nicotine and you weren't wearing a resperator, you would be dead now. Since you were able to post this, I'm guessing that it is not 100% undiluted nicotine.

I hear you, and I think you may have some misinformation about the whole "death" part. Those who know me here know that I speak about this accurately. The PPE and methods I used are beyond what we are allowed to discuss here on ECF. If you are interested, PM me and I can back up my claims.

The main point I was trying to make was showing the color difference in a ten-fold concentration of nic versus a diluted one that came from the exact same bottle of concentrate. One could easily think the higher concentrated sample was more degraded, when in fact it is just less diluted, therefore the color is more pronounced.

 

[gt_1955]

DIY nic salts is a thing.

2% benzoic acid mixed with 72mg PG nic, heated to 55c until dissolved. Cooled, made up a batch of 36mg with 15% flavour giving a 65/35 PG/VG ratio.

After some trial puffs and leaving it for 24hrs to see if die, i finally got up the courage to give it a proper vape. First thing you notice is there is zero harshness, its like vaping 3mg max VG.

After about ten puffs, heart rate and breathing increased markedly. I didnt like it and was worried the acid was doing horrible things to me, so put it down and decided to mull it over.

Anyway, today i pinched a marlborough off someone and smoked it, tasted awful, but gave me the exact same feeling as the home made salts. I never smoked premade, but maybe there is something to this salt malarkey after all.

Ive ordered some VG nic and plan to try 1% and mix up a batch of 48mg.

I wondered where you were getting your figures from ... then I read a relatively recent US Patent

 

[mikepetro]

DIY nic salts is a thing.

2% benzoic acid mixed with 72mg PG nic, heated to 55c until dissolved. Cooled, made up a batch of 36mg with 15% flavour giving a 65/35 PG/VG ratio.

After some trial puffs and leaving it for 24hrs to see if die, i finally got up the courage to give it a proper vape. First thing you notice is there is zero harshness, its like vaping 3mg max VG.

After about ten puffs, heart rate and breathing increased markedly. I didnt like it and was worried the acid was doing horrible things to me, so put it down and decided to mull it over.

Anyway, today i pinched a marlborough off someone and smoked it, tasted awful, but gave me the exact same feeling as the home made salts. I never smoked premade, but maybe there is something to this salt malarkey after all.

Ive ordered some VG nic and plan to try 1% and mix up a batch of 48mg.

The one thing that keeps jumping out at me is "heating a nic" solution. Everything I have read, and my own personal experiments, tells me that heat degrades nic. Couldn't the acid be dissolved in the dilutant (pure pg) and then cooled before being mixed with the nic? For example, Vermont Vapors recently released recipes do it this way but with citric acid instead.

They go on to say:

For those that don't know, l-nicotine has a very distinctive odor and can range from near colorless to yellow depending on decomposition. Ideally, you want your l-nicotine to be near colorless. The smell and taste are still there, but those are the smell and taste of nicotine. The best way to cut down the smell and taste is by using an acid to convert some portion of the l-nicotine (which is a base) into a salt by adding acid. We used citric, but Ive heard of other manufacturers using ascorbic or acetic acids.

As mentioned above, nicotine degrades with heat. Therefore, because the reaction between nicotine and an acid produces heat, you want to keep the reaction cold. The easiest way to do this is to add the correct amount of acid to your e-liquid base and then chill that to -5 deg. C or below. When you slowly mix in the nicotine (which you'd be smart enough to keep chilled), the reaction will not generate enough heat to significantly raise the temperature of the entire mass and, as such, minimal degradation will occur.

 

[gt_1955]

You may well be on the right path with that Mike, but maybe the nicotine and acid require heating to form the salt? I don't know, as chemistry lessons were a long time ago I can feel an experiment coming though

When we talk about nicotine degradation, what does it actually degrade into?

 

[mikepetro]

You may well be on the right path with that Mike, but maybe the nicotine and acid require heating to form the salt? I don't know, as chemistry lessons were a long time ago I can feel an experiment coming though

When we talk about nicotine degradation, what does it actually degrade into?

The protocol to test nic degradation was validated by tit-ration to get the l-nic levels. That testing method wouldn't work on these salts, so how would test for a total nic value?

 

[gt_1955]

There are methods, but none that I can conduct as a DIY'er. Suffice to say if I started with 45mg/ml (for a pod like device), I'm not going to end up with more than that

I have a titration kit, doesn't work on (what's commonly known as) extracted WTA either.

 

[dansus]

The one thing that keeps jumping out at me is "heating a nic" solution. Everything I have read, and my own personal experiments, tells me that heat degrades nic. Couldn't the acid be dissolved in the dilutant (pure pg) and then cooled before being mixed with the nic? For example, Vermont Vapors recently released recipes do it this way but with citric acid instead.

It had crossed my mind. Im initially following the procedures outlined in PAX's patent, surmising that heat is required to make salts. The crystals would take an age to dissolve even at room temp and given its for immediate consumption, heating the nic wasnt a concern at this stage.

Now ive settled on 1% 36mg for how i vape, next step will most likely be diluting in PG before mixing. Oddly, i found benzoic didnt like dissolving in VG at 55c, requiring 70c and more time.

Just to be clear, i have no idea what im doing. But im having fun doing it.

 

[gt_1955]

@mikepetro

Re heating ... I have had a word with a chemist mate, and even though he isn't an organic chemist he did advise that if heating the nicotine to not go above about 60C. Also, the reaction between the nicotine and the citric acid should occur at room temperature, so "we" should be able to dissolve the CA powder/crystals in PG (or VG, or a mix) at an elevated temperature, cool it and then add the nicotine mixture and still get the salt.

As I said, experiment time

 

[mhertz]

I enjoy reading your experiments/comments, but may I please ask what it is you're trying to archieve here(non-condesenting!). Why do you want so high nic and so needing to saltify it for reduced TH/taste? Do you have really high nic-dependency or are you just going for lower consumption/higher-strength?

Interesting nonetheless

[...]

When we talk about nicotine degradation, what does it actually degrade into?

I believe, Nic-oxide, as per the standard nic-oxidation-process...

 

[gt_1955]

...

I believe, Nic-oxide, as per the standard nic-oxidation-process...

Cotinine?

My daughter can't stand the TH/burn of high % nicotine juices in her ICare; lower the nic % and she chain vapes yet she never chain smoked.

 

[mhertz]

Cotinine?

Sorry, I don't know the specifics honestly? I just know what i've read from a chemist here, which is the colorchange and very-slight potency-change is oxygen(O2) reacting with nic to form nic-oxide... Sorry.

My daughter can't stand the TH/burn of high % nicotine juices in her ICare; lower the nic % and she chain vapes yet she never chain smoked.

Good reason of course, thank you

 

[gt_1955]

Yeah, I don't know either Cheers mate

 

[dansus]

@mhertz Speed of delivery and TH mainly i think. Plus i like to experiment.

 

[dansus]

I gave the dissolving benzo in PG first experiment a go. 36mg 1% batch, its really harsh and there is much less of the 'nic salt' taste. It vapes like how you would expect a freebase 36mg juice to vape, and lacks the salts nic hit.

Maybe heat is required to bond the acid to the nicotine to create salts.

*edit* I will let it steep for a while, see if the process still occurs, but in slow motion.