Nicotine safety

[Kate]

Here are another couple of links that detail overdose experiences, one of them involving a hospital trip

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/4115-newb-questions.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/3928-had-put-brakes.html

 

[ladykara]

I have noticed i have been feeling very slightly dizzy, i am using high 18mg PG, i have had to order low to put in another e cig and so i have one filled with high (use after dinner, morning ect) and another to use the rest of the time. I used to smoke up to 30 a day but someone pointed out i only ever used to smoke half a ... so maybe i didnt smoke as much as i thought, just lite up often.

 

[Kate]

Hi Kara. I use high (18mg) juice occasionally for a nicotine spike, I only use a couple of drops and then go back down to low. If I constantly vape high I get heartburn and palpitations.

As Scrubadub was saying earlier, it is very difficult to compare esmoking with smoking for nicotine absorption. The maths and science can only give a general idea, in the final analysis we are all different and we need to monitor our physical symptoms to determine a personal safe dose.

Start low and carefully increase dose if required. Get enough nicotine to satisfy your addiction but not so much that you increase tolerance.

 

[mouse]

I was just searching Google for info on nicotine toxicity, and I found a book called Poisoning & Drug Overdose By Kent R. Olson (page 277)- it's searchable on Google Books.

It says the average nicotine consumed in a single cigarette is between 10 - 15mg. Isn't this much higher than the estimates given in this thread?

I'm new so I can't post links but I'm pm'ing the link to Kate in the hope she can check it out. That's assuming I can post links in pm's...

 

[Kate]

Hi Mouse, welcome to the forum. I got your message with the link but unfortunately I can't view that page. It might be because I'm not a Google member and haven't logged in. If anyone else could check it out this is the link - Poisoning & Drug Overdose - Google Book Search

My guess is that this has something to do with the amount of nicotine in tobacco rather than the amount absorbed. Lots is burned off or lost through sidestream smoke. DC posted somewhere else that we only take in around 15% of the nicotine that is actually in a cigarette.

I don't know how it works. Packaging usually says around 0.5-1.2 mg per cig is absorbed but as Scrubadub pointed out earlier, that's unreliable because people don't smoke like machines. Sorry I can't help more with this.

Here is another link to a thread about nicotine overdose. This time it's someone who has overdosed on tobacco in the past (the first I've heard of) and is looking to swap to esmoking - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/4216-nicotine-question.html

 

[TropicalBob]

Don't be too concerned about the total amount of nicotine in a cigarette. You're interested in your intake from smoking. For a regular tobacco cig, it's about 1mg in 15 puffs per cig (and machines provide the only valid comparison; don't worry about how we smoke). For e-smoking, each puff provides roughly half the nicotine of a puff on a cigarette. Go from there.

If you e-smoke twice as much as you once smoked, you'll get the same nicotine in your blood stream. Take it up or down from there.

 

[Kate]

... that's what Ruyan say with 16mg juice.

 

[mouse]

Thanks Kate & TropicalBob, that clears things up a bit.

I thought the amount in the book sounded way too high, especially given that 60mg can kill an adult!

 

[scrubadub]

Don't be too concerned about the total amount of nicotine in a cigarette. You're interested in your intake from smoking. For a regular tobacco cig, it's about 1mg in 15 puffs per cig (and machines provide the only valid comparison; don't worry about how we smoke). For e-smoking, each puff provides roughly half the nicotine of a puff on a cigarette. Go from there.

If you e-smoke twice as much as you once smoked, you'll get the same nicotine in your blood stream. Take it up or down from there.

I have to disagree with you there TropicalBob I think how you smoke makes all the difference. I don't smoke e-cigs the same way I did fags certain brands I likely smoked differently to self medicate. Even Phillip Morris have admitted that the machine tests can't be used to accurately measure our nicotine intake:

'The FTC told smokers that "in looking at 'tar' and nicotine numbers, you need to know that the amount of 'tar' and nicotine you get will vary significantly depending on how you smoke the cigarettes." '

Understanding Tar & Nicotine Numbers - Philip Morris USA

 

[TropicalBob]

Since how a smoker smokes cannot be measured, only machine comparisons are valid. That's what I'm saying. And that's all. We all do indeed inhale differently, getting individual blood nicotine levels.

E-smoking researchers in New Zealand are using the same volume measurements used by Canada's cigarette smoking test machines. And that makes comparisons valid. See what I'm saying? I'm not saying we don't all smoke differently ... Your intake and my intake can't be compared; a Kool and a Kent and a Kissbox can be.

 

[scrubadub]

Ah right ok, yes I do see what you mean sorry. I read a different meaning into what you said the first time.

 

[Kate]

I just want to add some information to this thread

* TIME COURSE: Nicotine poisoning typically (but not always) produces toxicity in two phases: stimulation/excitation (early) followed quickly by inhibition/depression (late). Some patient/victims may only exhibit late phase effects. Onset of physical effects is dependent on route of exposure. Early phase findings occur within 15 minutes to 1 hour. Vomiting is the most common symptom of nicotine poisoning. Late phase findings occur within 30 minutes to 4 hours. The duration of symptoms is about 1 to 2 hours following mild exposure, and up to 18 to 24 hours following severe exposure. Death may occur within 1 hour after severe exposure.

* EFFECTS OF SHORT-TERM (LESS THAN 8-HOURS) EXPOSURE: At low concentrations, nicotine causes tremor and increases in heart rate, respiratory rate, blood pressure, and level of alertness. More severe exposures cause muscle fasciculations (involuntary twitching), seizures, and abnormal heart rhythms; these effects are followed by multi-system organ depression including slow heart rate (bradycardia), low blood pressure (hypotension), and paralysis of the muscles that control breathing. Vomiting occurs in more then 50% of symptomatic patient/victims. Death may occur, and is typically due to paralysis of the muscles that control breathing, a build-up of fluid in the airways (bronchorrhea), and failure of the heart and blood vessels (cardiovascular collapse).

The Emergency Response Safety and Health Database: Systemic Agent: NICOTINE

 

[jomari]

this is a great thread, i hope that i can learn more and more about this. im a tad concerned about TMJ disease, as i normally have 'lockjaw' due to an underbite. do i have it? im not certain, but it definitely will be on my list to look into.

thank you again for such a great thread. im posting here as a form of appreciation, and a way for me to go back to this when i can. =P

 

[Kate]

Here's a great post about personal experience with different nicotine levels:

I have a bottle of 555 fierce liquid from puresmoker (36mg nicotine). I have stayed away from it for awhile because I figured it was better to smoke less nic more often .

Well I finally decided to try my fierce liquid....OH MY GOD. I took 5 hits and LITERALLY was buzzing like crazy. I had to put the thing down. Keep in mind I vape pretty much all day long (usually low or medium....they seem about the same to me).

I must admit I could EASILY get addicted to that fierce stuff. It was a really nice clean nicotine feeling that just hit me like a bat!

I'm thinking maybe it's better to stay away from fierce liquid....just too damn strong!! At the same time, I f'in LOVED it!!! I guess I'm saying I don't know what to do....toss it or order a few more

What's your experience with fierce liquid?

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-ok-fierce-e-liquid-fin-fierce.html#post83531

This is another overdose thread where medical help had to be sought - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/5196-nic-od-somthing-else.html

 

[ibdno]

New here....so i dont have the numbers down yet, or what i am getting into my system. Either way, this is a good thread..... Thanks for the info.



later, Dean0

 

[Kate]

Hi Dean, welcome to the forum.

Ruyan/Dr Laugesen have been saying that a vapour puff has only half or a third of the nicotine we get from a cig.

This is rubbish, the only way to work out dose in a reasonably accurate way is to calculate mg per ml taken per day. For example, I can take any amount of zero, 1ml of 6mg and 1ml of 18mg for spikes and end up with a daily dose of 24mg. 2ml of 11mg would give me 22mg per day.

Dr Laugesen reckons we get 300 puffs per ml, in reality this seems very unusual - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/6525-draws-puffs-per-ml.html

He is also comparing with a cig that gives 1.5mg of nicotine. There aren't many of those about apparently.

We are likely to be able to get much more nicotine with vaping. This will either make us sick or raise tolerance (or both if you persist).

Don't believe the 1/3 or 1/2 myth until we get proper scientific proof.

 

[TropicalBob]

You've just condemned -- again -- the only scientist that we know is measuring our devices and practice.

And, as you also know, my personal experience says he's right. Yeh, yeh, I'm only one person. But I bet I'm not alone in saying the nic is just not there on a per-puff basis or not doing its job the way it does from a tobacco cigarette. It's about -- a third as good as a cigarette.

 

[Kate]

I'll keep on busting this myth until there is proper scientific evidence rather than subjective opinion and very dodgy calculations.

 

[TropicalBob]

Kate, I boiled over at you calling the findings of the world's only e-cig researcher "rubbish." That's rubbish. Believe whatever you want. That's your right. But Dr. Laugesen's statements aren't "rubbish" because you disagree with them. We all want better research. Until then ...

"Myth" is another word you misuse a lot.

 

[Kate]

Noted TBob, I'm sorry and will try to be more careful in future.