Lordy I don't want to fight with you. You're far too valuable a poster! I admire what you post. Vapes up.
- Status
Here's some more help with working out dosage -
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...7216-can-someone-help-me-math.html#post110153
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...93-nicotine-strength-question.html#post111439
It would be great if someone could make a spreadsheet calculator for nicotine dose in the way Jaaxx did with his Hack-O-Matic recipe calculator. I think I'll send him a message to ask if he could do that, it would help a lot with nicotine questions.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...7216-can-someone-help-me-math.html#post110153
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...93-nicotine-strength-question.html#post111439
It would be great if someone could make a spreadsheet calculator for nicotine dose in the way Jaaxx did with his Hack-O-Matic recipe calculator. I think I'll send him a message to ask if he could do that, it would help a lot with nicotine questions.
TOXICOLOGY of eliquid
If the strength of eliquid is expressed in mg/ml and the lethal dose for adults is 50mg, does this mean that the 15ml bottle of 36mg eliquid I bought recently is enough to fatally poison 15x36/50 = 10.8 adults?
If the above is correct then we all need to exercise extreme caution when storing and using eliquid. I have read that nicotine is readily absorbed into the bloodstream via the skin so if you spill any, wash it off ASAP. Also don't be tempted to lick it off despite the sweet taste of the propylene glycol. You may end up ingesting more nicotine than you realise.
I would really appreciate any feedback from people who can confirm what I have written above. I am not a doctor or a pharmacist but I have a useful but limited knowledge of pharmacy and am quite alarmed about the amount of a poisonous substance which is in the little bottle I have just purchased.
Regards
Steve
If the strength of eliquid is expressed in mg/ml and the lethal dose for adults is 50mg, does this mean that the 15ml bottle of 36mg eliquid I bought recently is enough to fatally poison 15x36/50 = 10.8 adults?
If the above is correct then we all need to exercise extreme caution when storing and using eliquid. I have read that nicotine is readily absorbed into the bloodstream via the skin so if you spill any, wash it off ASAP. Also don't be tempted to lick it off despite the sweet taste of the propylene glycol. You may end up ingesting more nicotine than you realise.
I would really appreciate any feedback from people who can confirm what I have written above. I am not a doctor or a pharmacist but I have a useful but limited knowledge of pharmacy and am quite alarmed about the amount of a poisonous substance which is in the little bottle I have just purchased.
Regards
Steve
The maths looks right to me Steve. 2ml of 36mg eliquid taken all at once would probably kill an adult. Some people will be more susceptible than others due to different levels of tolerance. 10mg can kill a child (less than a third of a ml of 36mg).
Treat nicotine with respect, store securely and use responsibly.
Treat nicotine with respect, store securely and use responsibly.
Thanks Kate for confirming that my maths make sense. I don't want to be alarmist and I really do want to see eCigarettes continue to be available as they make such good sense as a safer alternative to real cigarettes but there is a very good case for eliquid (and cartridges) to be properly labelled with warnings and only supplied to adults in child-proof containers. I have looked at the terms of the UK Poisons Act and it seems that these requirements are mandatory for supplying nicotine in any form other than tobacco or for use as an insecticide (I could have got this wrong as I didn't spend long looking at the documentation). I am a bit concerned that the suppliers in the UK may be acting outside of UK law in not being licensed with local authorities for the supply of nicotine which is a classified type 2 poison.
I am very new to ecigarettes after 20 years of smoking ordinary cigarettes and my experience of ecigs so far has been 100% positive. I just wish that these things had been available many years ago. But I am concerned about the possible dangers of mishandling/misuse of the eliquid or cartridges.
Steve
The UK Trading Standards have been looking into the sale of eliquid and do want proper packaging and storage to be used. I think that they found that the Poisons Act only applies if the concentration of nicotine is over 7%, the maximum in eliquid is 3.6%.
Somebody is bound to do something daft with eliquid at some point and the authorities will probably step in to protect us. I don't expect anything over 5-10mg per ml to be available in the future.
Somebody is bound to do something daft with eliquid at some point and the authorities will probably step in to protect us. I don't expect anything over 5-10mg per ml to be available in the future.
Washing regularly is a good hygienic practice, but... http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...sion/5010-lock-out-your-kids-2.html#post79165
It seems the skin absorbtion only applied to pure nicotine, not e-juice.
Frankie, I honestly didn't even find e-liquid to be a skin irritant. I made my own "nicotine patch" by soaking a Band-Aid in 24mg e-liquid and then wearing it on my abdomen. Didn't work well. The stuff is too slick and the bandage kept sliding down. I gave up after an hour or two. I felt nothing while it was in place or after removal.
I also melted about six drops' worth into candy and let that dissolve in my mouth. Nothing. Not nearly as good a hit as a snus pouch provides.
The nicotine in e-liquid is but a tiny part of that liquid. Pure stuff would kill in a heartbeat. That's why we'll never have the super-strength some users need. Too dangerous to handle.
I also melted about six drops' worth into candy and let that dissolve in my mouth. Nothing. Not nearly as good a hit as a snus pouch provides.
The nicotine in e-liquid is but a tiny part of that liquid. Pure stuff would kill in a heartbeat. That's why we'll never have the super-strength some users need. Too dangerous to handle.
Thanks for posting this. I admit to being math impaired, however some of these calc results seem to imply the juice is mostly nicotine when it's barely nicotine. I think if a dozen or two drops could kill a full grown adult something would have happened by now. One tipped bottle, one yippy dog... You can't get a hundred thousand plus people to eat McMuffins without an injury of some sort.
That said, I'm nervous about the fierce juice anyway.
The 36mg gives me a mild frontal lobe headache, which tells me the vasoconstriction from the nicotine is too much. I'll be diluting it with Bickford Kahlua and/or vegetable glycerine to cut it back a bit.
The nicotine content of 36mg ejuice is approximately 3.6% w/w. 11mg ejuice is 1.1% (assuming the SG of propylene glycol=1). Both of these numbers may seem tiny but you have to realise that nicotine is classified as a poison and that only relatively small doses can be deadly.
The LD50 (lethal dose for 50% mortality) for adults is typically 50mg and for children just 10mg total weight of nicotine ingested. Nicotine is more poisonous than sodium cyanide (LD50 about 250mg). This is the reason why Trading Standards in the UK want the sale of the nicotine solution to be regulated. A single nicotine cartridge contains enough nicotine to kill a child if swallowed. While you consider that ejuice only has a tiny amount of nicotine, in terms of it being a poison, it is quite a large amount.
Even a 15ml bottle of 11mg ejuice contains enough nicotine (165mg) to kill three adults. I recommend that you don't try to prove me wrong!
Regards
Steve
Wrong, steve. Read the linked content. There was a test and it sort of proved you wrong. At least from skin contact point of view.
'If swallowed',
trouble with this sort of info is that it also applies to a lot of household
liquids that also have child-proof caps.
Typically stored in your under-sink cupboard (at child grabbing level),
many with attractive added colours:
Oven cleaner (caustic soda)
Drain cleaner (conc sulphuric acid)
Paint brush cleaner/thinner (methanol + stuff)
Bleach (sodium hypochlorite)
Household ammonia
that's by no means exhaustive, perhaps the FDA should think about
enforcing child-proof lock on all kitchen cupboard doors.
trouble with this sort of info is that it also applies to a lot of household
liquids that also have child-proof caps.
Typically stored in your under-sink cupboard (at child grabbing level),
many with attractive added colours:
Oven cleaner (caustic soda)
Drain cleaner (conc sulphuric acid)
Paint brush cleaner/thinner (methanol + stuff)
Bleach (sodium hypochlorite)
Household ammonia
that's by no means exhaustive, perhaps the FDA should think about
enforcing child-proof lock on all kitchen cupboard doors.
I am talking about ingesting eliquid or cartridges containing the nicotine solution, not through skin absorption. I am not allowed to post URLs yet to prove the above but I will do when I have reached 15 posts.
A further danger is that the eliquid has a sweet, almost pleasant taste unless common houshold poisons like bleach and caustic soda etc. So in the hands of a child, the eliquid is especially dangerous.
It is up to the user to ensure that e-liquid CANNOT get into the hands or digestive system of any children in their home. This is a very simple point and is not open to debate.
I suggest someone catches a rat and feeds it some 36mg with a dropper and give us the results! ..lol
well, the e-liquid that got to my mouth was very yucky. Burning my tongue and making me rinse my mouth not just because of dangers of nicotine, but also because of very unpleasant taste. It *smells* nicely, but at least for me the taste was awful. On the other hand, it can be swallowed before the taste hits. I wholeheartedly agree that every user with kids should lock these things. Not too difficult, as they are small. The one that is currently in use can be placed in common empty childproof tablet bottle, for example. The UK sellers also use all the necessary warnings I think. If anybody poisons himself with a poison that is labeled as such just because he is dumb or drunk, well, there is always the Darwin price to win. Last year it was awarded to the guy who pumped his intestines with alcohol and died of poisoning...
I was not under the impression any ammonia is left in tobacco. Ammonia is used to freebase the nicotine in tobacco. In other words, it makes more of the nicotine in the tobacco available when smoked. Tobacco treated with ammonia is dried out and the ammonia is evaporated once the process is complete.
Likewise, once could also reduce the nicotine available in any given tobacco, using an acid rinse consisting of distilled water with a bit of lemon juice. This has the opposite effect of ammonia, by lowering the nicotine content of the tobacco. In both cases, the tobacco must be dried out completely after the treatment, then rehydrated before one can smoke it.
I never treated tobacco with ammonia, but did with acidic rinses.
I've skimmed this thread so sorry if this had been mentioned before but I just did a rough measurement with a syringe to measure and a dropper I got from e-wicked and it took around 50 drops to make up 2ml of liquid. I drip approximately 2-3 drops a time maybe 20 times a day but I'm only 3 weeks in from a 27 year habit.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
