I have seen where some people have been doing tobacco soaks but not true extractions like the WTA liquid that I am talking about.
No matter how much I vape, I still want to smoke analogs (and i still do smoke) Havent quit yet, who's in this category?
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I have seen where some people have been doing tobacco soaks but not true extractions like the WTA liquid that I am talking about.
I was wondering where you got the WTA e-liquid. I knew you where not part of the original lab rat testers.
I followed some of that but was never clear if they actually got anywhere with it. When the concept of WTA came up I emailed a US e-liquid maker (Johnson Creek) to see if there was any interest. I know TB also made some contacts. No luck with that. It may be difficult to get on the market simply because, as far as I know, all the manufactures buy there nicotine extract from outside sources. I know JC does. They don't do it in-house. I would doubt if there is any WTA extract available on the market. In order to get it out you would have to set up your own lab and do the whole thing from square one, or possible contract out to a lab. This is not a kitchen table operation and would take lots of money to get started.
yes- american spirits contain alkaloids.There are no additives in their cigarettes ( they are 100 percent tobacco) and i seem to remember that their tobacco is sourced from natural growers. i used to smoke american spirits and have some literature somewhere that they sent a while back that explains the whole process.
yes. although that last one could vary a bit depending on the juice.
Any tobacco will contain the "alkaloid spread" as I like to call it. American Spirit does indeed contain it, and it is my preferred starting material for producing the purified alkaloids as it is a good strong tobacco and is additive free. When you run into the term "organic", I believe that has something to do with meeting a set of standards during growing/production, but "organic" certification is outside my area of expertise.
What anybody here who is new to this could learn from some background reading is that when you hear of WTA e-liquid, you're hearing about the stuff I produced about a year ago to test the theory that by including the alkaloid spread in e-liquid, that e-liquid could help "stabilize" those who can't feel "normal" vaping nicotine only e-liquid, no matter the strength or quantity.
Four individuals tested it, I consider the testing to be closed as the goal of the testing (does the stuff work?) was satisfied. It works. Since the testing, I've provided samples to TBob (sort of a follow-up to the testing) and hittman, but not as part of anything that should be construed as "general availability". WTA is unavailable, and if I choose to make an exception, that's my decision and I'm disinclined to justify. At-large requests for WTA-liquid will be met with (usually) polite refusal.
I'm not posting this to be disagreeable or unpleasant, I'm simply wanting to be understood by those who were not around during the discussions leading up to the testing of WTA that WTA is not something that I can just "whip up". While involving basic organic chemistry, it is hard, nasty, dirty, expensive work that involves not only specialized knowledge during preparation, but equally specialized knowledge to responsibly deal with the waste products produced. Making WTA is, in short, a pain in the ....
I recommend Swedish snus.
Yep, I'll vouch for him. I was there when he traded his first-born for it
. Stubby, I had high hopes MFS would do the same since they seemed to rely on Dvap so much for testing their liquids, but like you said, vendors don't actually make their own nic. I guess the PV market isn't big enough yet to convince a manufacturer to alter the process.
LMAO...It dont get no clearer than that...Glad you cleared that up for us!!! Well done.
Drew
There ya go, bro. I took the liberty of a more direct approach
. Basically, a lot of research and work using dangerous chemicals was put into WTA development, so unless it becomes mass-produced there's no way to make it financially feasible. It would be like buying a hand-built car instead of one off an assembly line. And the recipe involves chemicals and equipment that the average home-brewer shouldn't play with, so it remains unavailable....period.
Okay, I got reports about this thread and heard that DVap talked about degenerates so I knew I had to come over here out of respect for my profession. I'll give you one man's view of the whole topic which is very similar to views expressed in the links provided. I was a 43 year smoker, at the end 2-3 packs a day and had tried just about every pharma solution short of Chantix, hypnosis three times, various herbal remedies, Smoke-away (can't even remember what that one was, some silly timer program, and others that pop up every once and a while on these forums that I say, OH, I DID THAT. Just thought of another, some filter program that you used to put on the cigarettes and each one made it harder to get any smoke. That didn't work either.
For me, the best quit smoking product was Zyban (Wellbutrin in it's more expensive for, thank you BP). Anyway, some ten years or so ago, I finally quit, QUIT TRYING TO QUIT. And I was happy with that solution until they added FSC to cigarettes. That fire ......ant changed my outlook and my health. I started coughing, a lot. I'd lay down and I was wheezing myself to sleep. I had a temporary reprieve when I bought a house in VA. where they didn't have FSC cigarettes. Every time I went down there, I bought my supply to last me while I was at my principle residence in PA. That worked fine until VA went FSC 10 months later. Now I had no choice, except my GF told me about E Cigs and she wanted to try them. I laughed at the idea, but eventually caved in and like mentioned previously in this thread bought a bad product as my first go round. However, I did reduce my cigarette count somewhat and found this forum and got myself a 510 which was so much better.
I bought a supply of parts and additional kits and lots of different flavored juice based on recommendations I found here. Then I found a real bargain on Craigslist for a wine refrigerator for $25 to hold all my juice supplies in. Needless to say, that first three months I spent a whole lot of money. However, at the rate I had been smoking I actually saved money over what I would have spent on cigarettes because I was like so many others here, I dropped my daily cigarette count down to a half dozen. First thing in the morning, etc. etc. etc.
That went on for about six months when I noticed that six was becoming seven, then eight and soon a half pack a day. I was desperate because the coughing and wheezing started coming back. I started asking a lot of questions, similar to this thread and I started getting interested in Swedish snus, not SNUS. Two different products, two different techniques. I had bought the ?non-profit?"health" organizations propaganda about smokeless tobacco and its danger so I was very, very leery. However, there is a vast amount of literature out there on studies done as has been mentioned. I read and I read most of that seventh month. Then I decided to buy some Swedish snus and give it a try.
The problem was, the only easy was to get it was to order it. I heard that General was available at various places, but I hadn't found the "dark side" at that point and was flying blind. I went to the only tobacco store in the immediate area and inquired. They informed me that they had some Camel at one point, but were sold out and didn't know when they'd be getting their next order in. Since I really wanted snus instead of SNUS, I decided I'd just order on-line. I found Northerner. Buy Swedish Snus & Snuff Online. The Healthy Smokeless Tobacco Alternative and ordered a 10 can sampler they had at that time (pre-PACT, when life was good). However, I knew it would take some amount of time to get here.
The very next week, I walked into a convenience store and right behind the checkout they had installed a Camel SNUS display. I bought a can of Camel Mellow and promptly popped a portion under my upper lip (learned how to use from my research). It wasn't bad, not really that good either, a little sweet for my taste but what the heck. Hoped on my bike and took off. I vaped until I felt like I wanted a cigarette and popped in a portion. Shortly afterward the desire for a smoke went away, but the taste wasn't that great so the next day I picked up a Camel Frost and tried that. It was even sweeter, almost sickening sweet for me, but I hadn't had a cigarette since the Mellow so I started alternating between the two different cans of SNUS when I felt I wanted a cigarette. I think it was two days later that my order arrived from Northern.
I opened my first can of Swedish snus, I know it was a white portion but can't recall the type, and I LOVED IT. It was salty, but not annoyingly so and it did the same for me as the SNUS did. It kept me away from smoking. I know I eventually finished the one can of SNUS but I think I threw out the other. I found contentment. That was nine months ago and I've had no real desire to take a puff on a smoke since. I almost tried one at six months, but after considering it, I decided I'd wait for a year. We'll see if I try that in a bit less than three months.
Now, before I actually say what I started this post about, I want to say something about American SNUS. Most snus users hate it and I'm no big fan, although recently I tried Camel Robust when I forgot my can and didn't mind it. I also just recently bought a can of the Mellow again and a portion now and then doesn't seem as bad. Marlboro, FORGET IT. It is awful. I got a set of sample packs on my own for free they're still in my freezer. Someone else give me five different packs, I tried two and through the whole lot out. They are worthless and don't have any redeeming value. Enough said.
My point. Over this sixteen plus month journey I have found that there are four types of individuals with smoking being a three headed monster. There are the confirmed smokers (such as I thought I was until FSC) who nothing except a cigarette will satisfy at this point. At some point in the future, they may become unconfirmed. In fact at the rate things are changing, I believe most of those 46 million in the US will become unconfirmed for one reason or another. Look at the taxes and look at the devil demons in Tobacco Control and there are going to be a lot of roadblocks thrown at them. No smoking in commercial property, no smoking in multi-family units, no smoking outdoors, no smoking in your freaking car for gods sake. No smoking if you want a job (they're working on that, starting in the health industry), the list goes on. There are going to be a lot of reasons to switch before they turn their attention to obesity. However, we'll forget about that for the time being. Let's look at that three headed monster.
I think it was DVap that mentioned the fallacy of nicotine as being the main reason people smoke. Where I disagree is that he specified tobacco itself where I believe for some people, nicotine is all they need. All, except, the most addicting aspect of smoking, misunderstood my the anti-smoking group, THE HABIT. The OP seemed to be so addicted to all those queues that made him reach for that next smoke. Waking up, coffee, eating, driving, the list goes on the longer you're a smoker. God, I should know, you don't smoke as many cigarettes a day as I did without having most of them. When I drove I smoked more. When I first got my bike, I quickly realized that I couldn't use a full face helmet since I needed a cigarette before I started out. Nicotine isn't nearly as strong as that bond that all smokers have. The lighter smokers usually make the ritual something like drinking and smoking. They can go weeks without a cigarette, but put a drink in their hands and they'll have a smoke in their mouths and the more they drink, the more they smoke. Yet, after the night is over, they're back to not smoking. Think about it. If nicotine or the other tobacco alkaloids were that addictive for everyone, wouldn't everyone be daily smokers after a fun night out? These smokers have the easiest task with using E Cigs. They can get their hand to mouth habit addressed and avoid the dangers of inhaling smoke. You see them here on ECF frequently. They get their E Cig and never smoke again. The next thing you read from them is reducing the nicotine level until they are proud that they are now vaping 0 nic. I HATED MYSELF for being so weak when I read their posts those first seven months. They were the lucky ones.
The second head of the monster are those that are satisfied by the HABIT portion, plus the nicotine. The lucky ones are the ones that quickly find the right combination of nicotine level and flavor that quickly makes them forget about "fun" smoking was. After some amount of time, it could be quickly or it could be months, they get the right hardware, the right flavor and the right nic level and they don't need to inhale smoke. They made me DISLIKE MYSELF, because I followed all their suggestions up to trying 48mg nic for a short bit, but that just make it hard to fall asleep for me.
Then there are, as DVap stated, us degenerates. Perhaps a more appropriate term would be chemically challenged. I didn't find Zyban the most effective quit smoking method for no reason. It mellowed me, it made me feel......normal. A chemical imbalance or other factors can lead to depression. From a medical website- "What Causes Depression?
You may feel you know exactly why you're depressed. Other times, however, the reasons for depression are not as clear. The causes of depression are quite complex. Very often it is a combination of genetic, psychological, and environmental factors. Regardless of the cause, depression is almost always treatable. You do not need to determine the cause of your depression to get help." Yup, modern medicine could have solved my issues at the age of 19 or perhaps not, it might have just led to more medicine.
Nicotine alone didn't address my needs, but tobacco with those other unstudied alkaloids did. Could I have done my lungs and heart a favor by getting a very safe alternative via a product like Swedish snus decades ago? Most certainly, but that doesn't fit well into Tobacco Control and Big Pharma's need to solve all our problems.
Thus that third head of the monster and the one that we degenerates most love. For me, four or five portions a day and my PV sits unused most of the time. I still love my strawberry cheesecake liquid at almost a negligible level of nic or, depending on the day and my mood, a chocolate flavor at 36mg for a few puffs, but I can go enough days that I have a hard time figuring out where I left my chuck. My one remaining trigger is that drinking and smoking thing, but I don't want a smoke anymore, just some incessant puffing on my PV and the conversations that develop from its use. And that defines me as one of those degenerates.
My final note is about Roger Water's The Wall which I attended about two weeks ago. They finished building the wall before intermission. The lights went up and there was a massive exodus to the smoking area, my gf among them. She chose not to take the journey after her initial introduction to PVs. I don't have a problem with that because it's her decision. I just sat back and took in the venue. I just felt the need to reach into my pocket and pull out my Chuck and have a couple minutes of blowing wisps of what in a different lifetime would have been smoke...... of some kind.
I apologize in advance for spelling and grammer errors because this is too long to edit at this point.
For me, the best quit smoking product was Zyban (Wellbutrin in it's more expensive for, thank you BP). Anyway, some ten years or so ago, I finally quit, QUIT TRYING TO QUIT. And I was happy with that solution until they added FSC to cigarettes. That fire ......ant changed my outlook and my health. I started coughing, a lot. I'd lay down and I was wheezing myself to sleep. I had a temporary reprieve when I bought a house in VA. where they didn't have FSC cigarettes. Every time I went down there, I bought my supply to last me while I was at my principle residence in PA. That worked fine until VA went FSC 10 months later. Now I had no choice, except my GF told me about E Cigs and she wanted to try them. I laughed at the idea, but eventually caved in and like mentioned previously in this thread bought a bad product as my first go round. However, I did reduce my cigarette count somewhat and found this forum and got myself a 510 which was so much better.
I bought a supply of parts and additional kits and lots of different flavored juice based on recommendations I found here. Then I found a real bargain on Craigslist for a wine refrigerator for $25 to hold all my juice supplies in. Needless to say, that first three months I spent a whole lot of money. However, at the rate I had been smoking I actually saved money over what I would have spent on cigarettes because I was like so many others here, I dropped my daily cigarette count down to a half dozen. First thing in the morning, etc. etc. etc.
That went on for about six months when I noticed that six was becoming seven, then eight and soon a half pack a day. I was desperate because the coughing and wheezing started coming back. I started asking a lot of questions, similar to this thread and I started getting interested in Swedish snus, not SNUS. Two different products, two different techniques. I had bought the ?non-profit?"health" organizations propaganda about smokeless tobacco and its danger so I was very, very leery. However, there is a vast amount of literature out there on studies done as has been mentioned. I read and I read most of that seventh month. Then I decided to buy some Swedish snus and give it a try.
The problem was, the only easy was to get it was to order it. I heard that General was available at various places, but I hadn't found the "dark side" at that point and was flying blind. I went to the only tobacco store in the immediate area and inquired. They informed me that they had some Camel at one point, but were sold out and didn't know when they'd be getting their next order in. Since I really wanted snus instead of SNUS, I decided I'd just order on-line. I found Northerner. Buy Swedish Snus & Snuff Online. The Healthy Smokeless Tobacco Alternative and ordered a 10 can sampler they had at that time (pre-PACT, when life was good). However, I knew it would take some amount of time to get here.
The very next week, I walked into a convenience store and right behind the checkout they had installed a Camel SNUS display. I bought a can of Camel Mellow and promptly popped a portion under my upper lip (learned how to use from my research). It wasn't bad, not really that good either, a little sweet for my taste but what the heck. Hoped on my bike and took off. I vaped until I felt like I wanted a cigarette and popped in a portion. Shortly afterward the desire for a smoke went away, but the taste wasn't that great so the next day I picked up a Camel Frost and tried that. It was even sweeter, almost sickening sweet for me, but I hadn't had a cigarette since the Mellow so I started alternating between the two different cans of SNUS when I felt I wanted a cigarette. I think it was two days later that my order arrived from Northern.
I opened my first can of Swedish snus, I know it was a white portion but can't recall the type, and I LOVED IT. It was salty, but not annoyingly so and it did the same for me as the SNUS did. It kept me away from smoking. I know I eventually finished the one can of SNUS but I think I threw out the other. I found contentment. That was nine months ago and I've had no real desire to take a puff on a smoke since. I almost tried one at six months, but after considering it, I decided I'd wait for a year. We'll see if I try that in a bit less than three months.
Now, before I actually say what I started this post about, I want to say something about American SNUS. Most snus users hate it and I'm no big fan, although recently I tried Camel Robust when I forgot my can and didn't mind it. I also just recently bought a can of the Mellow again and a portion now and then doesn't seem as bad. Marlboro, FORGET IT. It is awful. I got a set of sample packs on my own for free they're still in my freezer. Someone else give me five different packs, I tried two and through the whole lot out. They are worthless and don't have any redeeming value. Enough said.
My point. Over this sixteen plus month journey I have found that there are four types of individuals with smoking being a three headed monster. There are the confirmed smokers (such as I thought I was until FSC) who nothing except a cigarette will satisfy at this point. At some point in the future, they may become unconfirmed. In fact at the rate things are changing, I believe most of those 46 million in the US will become unconfirmed for one reason or another. Look at the taxes and look at the devil demons in Tobacco Control and there are going to be a lot of roadblocks thrown at them. No smoking in commercial property, no smoking in multi-family units, no smoking outdoors, no smoking in your freaking car for gods sake. No smoking if you want a job (they're working on that, starting in the health industry), the list goes on. There are going to be a lot of reasons to switch before they turn their attention to obesity. However, we'll forget about that for the time being. Let's look at that three headed monster.
I think it was DVap that mentioned the fallacy of nicotine as being the main reason people smoke. Where I disagree is that he specified tobacco itself where I believe for some people, nicotine is all they need. All, except, the most addicting aspect of smoking, misunderstood my the anti-smoking group, THE HABIT. The OP seemed to be so addicted to all those queues that made him reach for that next smoke. Waking up, coffee, eating, driving, the list goes on the longer you're a smoker. God, I should know, you don't smoke as many cigarettes a day as I did without having most of them. When I drove I smoked more. When I first got my bike, I quickly realized that I couldn't use a full face helmet since I needed a cigarette before I started out. Nicotine isn't nearly as strong as that bond that all smokers have. The lighter smokers usually make the ritual something like drinking and smoking. They can go weeks without a cigarette, but put a drink in their hands and they'll have a smoke in their mouths and the more they drink, the more they smoke. Yet, after the night is over, they're back to not smoking. Think about it. If nicotine or the other tobacco alkaloids were that addictive for everyone, wouldn't everyone be daily smokers after a fun night out? These smokers have the easiest task with using E Cigs. They can get their hand to mouth habit addressed and avoid the dangers of inhaling smoke. You see them here on ECF frequently. They get their E Cig and never smoke again. The next thing you read from them is reducing the nicotine level until they are proud that they are now vaping 0 nic. I HATED MYSELF for being so weak when I read their posts those first seven months. They were the lucky ones.
The second head of the monster are those that are satisfied by the HABIT portion, plus the nicotine. The lucky ones are the ones that quickly find the right combination of nicotine level and flavor that quickly makes them forget about "fun" smoking was. After some amount of time, it could be quickly or it could be months, they get the right hardware, the right flavor and the right nic level and they don't need to inhale smoke. They made me DISLIKE MYSELF, because I followed all their suggestions up to trying 48mg nic for a short bit, but that just make it hard to fall asleep for me.
Then there are, as DVap stated, us degenerates. Perhaps a more appropriate term would be chemically challenged. I didn't find Zyban the most effective quit smoking method for no reason. It mellowed me, it made me feel......normal. A chemical imbalance or other factors can lead to depression. From a medical website- "What Causes Depression?
You may feel you know exactly why you're depressed. Other times, however, the reasons for depression are not as clear. The causes of depression are quite complex. Very often it is a combination of genetic, psychological, and environmental factors. Regardless of the cause, depression is almost always treatable. You do not need to determine the cause of your depression to get help." Yup, modern medicine could have solved my issues at the age of 19 or perhaps not, it might have just led to more medicine.
Nicotine alone didn't address my needs, but tobacco with those other unstudied alkaloids did. Could I have done my lungs and heart a favor by getting a very safe alternative via a product like Swedish snus decades ago? Most certainly, but that doesn't fit well into Tobacco Control and Big Pharma's need to solve all our problems.
Thus that third head of the monster and the one that we degenerates most love. For me, four or five portions a day and my PV sits unused most of the time. I still love my strawberry cheesecake liquid at almost a negligible level of nic or, depending on the day and my mood, a chocolate flavor at 36mg for a few puffs, but I can go enough days that I have a hard time figuring out where I left my chuck. My one remaining trigger is that drinking and smoking thing, but I don't want a smoke anymore, just some incessant puffing on my PV and the conversations that develop from its use. And that defines me as one of those degenerates.
My final note is about Roger Water's The Wall which I attended about two weeks ago. They finished building the wall before intermission. The lights went up and there was a massive exodus to the smoking area, my gf among them. She chose not to take the journey after her initial introduction to PVs. I don't have a problem with that because it's her decision. I just sat back and took in the venue. I just felt the need to reach into my pocket and pull out my Chuck and have a couple minutes of blowing wisps of what in a different lifetime would have been smoke...... of some kind.
I apologize in advance for spelling and grammer errors because this is too long to edit at this point.
Gosh there were a lot of posts while I was digressing. However, two points. Someone mentioned the signatures with months and amounts. Mine is one of them, it is accurate up to the 15th of this month and includes the expense I took for PVs, supplies and Swedish snus. The few cans of SNUS were never considered, but I guess I could back that $10 or so out of the tally.
Also, DVap, I was I were there in the moment. However, as you say, recommend snus.
Also, DVap, I was I were there in the moment. However, as you say, recommend snus.
Actually, way ahead of ya here. I'm nearly out the door for a 12 hour drive, so I'll have to keep it short. Some time back, I speculated that some are nicotine freaks, some are WTA freaks, some are both, and some are neither. But I'm out the door, so I'm hoping someone familiar with the whole concept will flesh it out here for me.
Oh, to clear things up a bit:
Degenerate: Someone who posts to the the smokeless forum, an advocate of the dark side.
Degenerate Happy .......: What somebody who can't get his/her jollies from e-liquid alone becomes once they discover snus.
Twisted Victor: The poster-child for degenerate happy .......s.
I believe this is what you are referring to. You should know it as you wrote it
DVap...... you know the dark side calls you........ why do you resist............. there is no need for that........
Surely by now you know you are................. one of us.......
DVap...... you know the dark side calls you........ why do you resist............. there is no need for that........
Surely by now you know you are................. one of us.......
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. Keepin' the lid on is a full-time job.......This thread has turned into a remarkably amazing spot for great information. It's insane how we transitioned from me (the OP) wanting to still smoke cigs, all the way down to the science of it all. I learned so much from this thread, and we all stayed on topic. At the time I created this thread, I hadnt really tried before to slow down on the analogs. As I stated before in a previous page, I went from 35-40 analogs a day to about 10-12 a day....I'm using an app to monitor my usage and I'm now up to smoking every 2 hours I think....which is a pretty good drop in analogs once I got the right combo of battery, LR atty, and premium juice. I'll keep everyone posted. As far as snus goes, I have a camel Frost in my upper lip as we speak .... (but who's counting snus packets ?) lol.
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