NYC bans ecigs indoors. The mind boggles.

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jpargana

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If e-cigs were regulated as a smoking cessation device, you could expect a large increase in price, along with regulating away options such as flavored e-liquids and a variety of devices. Basically, you'd be left with something like Blu, only in tobacco and menthol flavors sold at local pharmacies for double the price. The only places who would be able to sell it would have to purchase a license to sell it at $1284639462 which would contribute to higher prices. The FDA once tried to claim it was a smoking cessation device, and a judge shot it down as they are not advertised as such. The kind of regulation that would come from a ruling that made this into a smoking cessation product would likely kill everything we like about the product and it would be rendered almost as useless as the patch. I know that without the flavors (I started vaping cherry, not tobacco) and throat hit from a VV ego, I would not have been as successful. Remember, a big argument the anti vaper side had are the flavors that supposedly make this appealing to children.

This.

Medicalization was tried in the EU. Fortunately, after we made quite some noise, that was voted against. But the thing is: medicalization would have been a de-facto ban in the EU. In the United Kingdom, for example, the total value of the industry would be less than the cost of the studies that would have to be paid by e-cig manufacturers...! 8-o
 

jpargana

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Right, quitting smoking cigarettes has to be miserable. If they made the patches, chantix, and gum enjoyable, we might want to take them. God forbid that someone actually enjoys taking something, we just don't alllow that around here, partner.

Yes. Many ANTZ's believe we should be punished by having initiated tobacco addiction in the past. They also seem to believe we should keep being punished by Medicine's inability to find a viable and effective quitting method. And when we finally find that method (Because Medicine hasn't), well, too bad... it is not an acceptable way to quit, not according to their high moral grounds... so, they both hate the problem, and the solution... in fact, haters is an accurate name for those people...! :)
 

jpargana

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The problem is that drug community has been combating smoking cessation as simply a nicotine addiction. There is more to "smoking" than being addicted to nicotine.

The Nicotine withdrawal symptoms last only a couple of days. Within a couple of days of smoking the body is clean of nicotine, but as we know, being "off" nicotine is just part of the problem.

There is the "hand to mouth" behavior, the oral fixation, the social habit, the feel of the throat hit....NONE of the available smoking cessation products address all these issues except e-cigs.

Even if Nicorette gum tasted good, I wouldn't substitue chewing gum for taking a nice hit.

A patch gives you no sensory feedback at all except a time released dose and some local skin irritation.

Only e-cigs provide a method to address all of the habit forming behaviors linked to smoking, while allowing the user to selectively cut down on his nicotine usage. That is why they are so effective. I can slowly lower my nicotine intake so that I don't have the withdrawal symptoms while still satisfying the other smoking behaviors.

Yes, it's a mind fake, but a rather effective one.


Bullseye !! :thumbs:


The ANTZ's have yet to realize that it is exactly because the e-cig mimics the behavioral side of cigarette addiction that it works so much better than Pharma products! But no, they're so blinded by their ideology that they would rather see someone keeping smoking, than quitting with an e-cig! A smoker is an easier victim to their bashing than a vaper, anyway...
 

Traver

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No, they're not... they're only interested in keeping collecting those taxes. To keep the money lining their pockets, they must get rid of tobacco's greatest competitor... the e-cigarette. Bumping the e-cig with tobacco and spreading lies (We have heard health 'experts' claiming that "the e-cig can actually be more dangerous than tobacco") is a way to deter people from making the switch.

On one hand, Big Govt creates laws to vilify smokers. If you look carefully, those laws never actually harm tobacco sales (Take the menthol exception example, in the flavourings ban). That happens because Big Govt, on the other hand, needs our hard-earned money. Then, some of that money is used in new campaigns to vilify smokers... rinse and repeat. :glare:

Of course it has hurt sale. Cigarette smoking and sales have gone down dramatically from the past. In the early 70's the smoking rate 43% now it is more like 20%.
It seems a bit of stretch to say the government is only interested in the money. While at the same time they restrict the sales and places where cigarettes be smoked.
 

jpargana

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Of course it has hurt sale. Cigarette smoking and sales have gone down dramatically from the past. In the early 70's the smoking rate 43% now it is more like 20%.
It seems a bit of stretch to say the government is only interested in the money. While at the same time they restrict the sales and places where cigarettes be smoked.

If it only was that simple... in the EU, even before the first try at a de-facto ban, an Italian MEP (Giancario Scotta , I believe) was already wining before the Comission bacause Italy had already lost 7.6 per cent in 'sin' tax revenue, and the e-cigarette was a major factor in those losses, and 'what was the Comission thinking to do to compensate for those losses'... (Simple: they tried to ban the e-cig after that).

Take France, for example: there was a tobacco price raise already scheduled and agreeded with the manufacturers. In the mean time, tobacco sales started dropping much more than initially expected. What did their Govnmt do? Instead of forcing the pre-arranged raise (The logical thing to do if the goal was indeed to make people smoke even less), they simply postponed it! Of course, this was what BT wanted (No company will raise its prices when demand is dropping), but the fact remains that the Govnmt itself did not push for the raise. Of course, conflicts of interest may explain that...!

The thing is, lately, drop in tobacco sales has not been very significant (I believe they even raised a little around 2010). Nothing that a good old Govnmt could not compensate with a little raise of taxes. But now, with the e-cig market doubling every year since 2010/11, 'they' are getting really upset. Because now, that sales drop is really starting to show... until now, in recent years, nothing in tobacco control has achieved those results. And that is scaring the Beejesus out of those people...!

:toast:
 

AegisPrime

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Nobody said .gov was smart just money hungry. If you don't wake up you will be a statisic. Their plan to tax health plans/ecigs is just around the corner.

The problem is that any 'sin tax' style punitive taxation will expose the hypocrisy behind the ridiculous tax already on cigarettes (77-88% in the UK).

Supposedly cigarettes are taxed highly to encourage cessation, a similar tax on e-cigarettes would make them far costlier than analogs - governments are in a pinch - do they do what's best for the public health? i.e. keep taxation low thereby encouraging smokers to switch - of what's best for the bottom line - tax the hell out of them and show themselves for the hypocrites they are?

If e-cigs continue to be a cost-effective means of smoking cessation then governments need to get used to the fact that the tax they make on analogs is going away and there's little they can do to prevent it.
 

rothenbj

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The problem is that any 'sin tax' style punitive taxation will expose the hypocrisy behind the ridiculous tax already on cigarettes (77-88% in the UK).

Supposedly cigarettes are taxed highly to encourage cessation, a similar tax on e-cigarettes would make them far costlier than analogs - governments are in a pinch - do they do what's best for the public health? i.e. keep taxation low thereby encouraging smokers to switch - of what's best for the bottom line - tax the hell out of them and show themselves for the hypocrites they are?

If e-cigs continue to be a cost-effective means of smoking cessation then governments need to get used to the fact that the tax they make on analogs is going away and there's little they can do to prevent it.

I don't see how they'll ever be able to tax 0 nic liquid other than basic sales tax. That will satisfy the ex-smokers that find the hand to mouth aspects of smoking to be the most addicting aspect of the habit. People like myself who found nicotine itself not really breaking the cigarette's attraction and moved on to alternatives like snus can also either just use the alternative or use the smokeless tobacco product and vape zero nic. That leaves just those that nicotine is the only solution and it comes down to a decision of either vaping at a high cost or returning to smoking. That's a terrible decision to be asked to make considering the known risks of smoking. It's certainly not one the a government should be forcing on their people.
 

Traver

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If e-cigs continue to be a cost-effective means of smoking cessation then governments need to get used to the fact that the tax they make on analogs is going away and there's little they can do to prevent it.

The way I see this playing out is that the tobacco companies and our noble governments both local and federal will collude with major tobacco companies to make it difficult to by juice and refill. Then they will be able to tax cartridges the same way cigarettes are taxed now.
 

AegisPrime

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The way I see this playing out is that the tobacco companies and our noble governments both local and federal will collude with major tobacco companies to make it difficult to by juice and refill. Then they will be able to tax cartridges the same way cigarettes are taxed now.

This is exactly the outcome BT wants - they want you to buy their cigalikes and cartos from convenience stores and gas stations at prices that deliver increased profits to them (in comparison to what they make on analogs) and at a rate of taxation that makes the choice between cigs/e-cigs a personal one.

It's unlikely that governments can regulate the national mod market (or at the very least, there'll always be mechanicals) but they can make it difficult or impossible to buy bottles of e-liquid or even the nicotine needed to mix your own.

One of the ridiculous mandates of the EU legislation is that 'Refillable devices need to have some mechanism that avoid spilling' - something that makes all existing mods effectively illegal under such regulations - the only thing that will scrape through is pre-filled cartomizers - exactly what BT wants.

*Edit* actually, it's worth pointing out that it's not only BT that wants this - companies like V2, Green Smoke, Smokeless Image etc. all stand to benefit from refillables being outlawed since they're not in the business of making mods and e-liquids - anything that pushes vapers towards cigalikes is in their interest so don't expect more support from them than you would BT...
 
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jpargana

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This is exactly the outcome BT wants - they want you to buy their cigalikes and cartos from convenience stores and gas stations at prices that deliver increased profits to them (in comparison to what they make on analogs) and at a rate of taxation that makes the choice between cigs/e-cigs a personal one.

(...)

*Edit* actually, it's worth pointing out that it's not only BT that wants this - companies like V2, Green Smoke, Smokeless Image etc. all stand to benefit from refillables being outlawed since they're not in the business of making mods and e-liquids - anything that pushes vapers towards cigalikes is in their interest so don't expect more support from them than you would BT...

Yes. Even in this 'tiny' detail their hipocrisy shows: many 'health' groups have already aknowledged the health benefits from the e-cig (evidence is by now overwhelming), but they still attack the e-cig because it 'normalizes smoking behaviour'. And yet, according to the new legislation that is currently being discussed in the EU, the only e-cigs available would be the cig-alikes. :facepalm:

Ego-style e-cigs and mods, just to name a few, which have no resemblance to a cigarette at all, would be banned.

Maybe they can ban the e-juice with nicotine. I can see people using the patch and the gum for a little time, while vaping 0 nic to adress the behavioral side of smoking (Just like many of us have started with 18mg, 12mg, 6mg and then zero...)
After that? Even if they ban ALL liquid, leaving only disposables available, you can easily buy PG and VG in a chemist's shop. You can buy flavours separately. They will never be able to ban wire, cotton, silica, rechargeable batteries... the very idea of some people actually believing they can ban something that we can DIY at home, for ourselves or for smokers trying to quit, just shows how much they actually know about the subject they're trying to legislate... Zip. Nada. Nothing.

In a way, it's like trying to ban lemon vodka from the market, while keeping both vodka AND lemons... good luck with that...!

:toast:
 
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JacobDaniel

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I don't live in NY, but they can have my Vape and my Gun when they pry them from my cold dead hands...
 

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Pinggolfer

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I don't live in NY, but they can have my Vape and my Gun when they pry them from my cold dead hands...

What does a hand gun have to do with vaping? Try to get on any plane in Michigan with your hand gun and they will pry it from your cold dead hand.
 

JacobDaniel

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Pinggolfer

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JacobDaniel

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I read the thread and read enough about Nazi Germany, Hitler, and hand guns. I grew up in NYC and I'm glad the city has gun laws.

I'm sure all the muggers, robbers, murderers follow laws to the letter.

Sorry OP for getting off track.
 

navigator2011

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NYC has always been ...-backwards in regards to these sort of things.. is anyone really surprised about this?

Not surprised at all. Just irritated that they've taken steps to make it more difficult for people to choose vaping over analogs. Obviously, the NYC ban doesn't make it impossible to vape, and anyone that is dedicated to quitting smoking still can do so, but the ban does not make switching to vaping any easier--it just needlessly demonizes a healthier alternative. And, I don't want such bans to gather any more momentum.
 
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