opinions on wick

[Tbev]

Thanks for the info are there any chemicals that are derived from using silica? Is ecowool better option?

I was under the impression that the use of pg lowered the temperature required to produce vapor and that would make it safe..... Safer.. Maybe...?

Lots of good info thanks for taking the time, much appreciated!

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

 

[happydave]

I was under the impression that the use of pg lowered the temperature required to produce vapor and that would make it safe..... Safer.. Maybe...?

no, because you are still boiling off the VG. if we have a solution of %50 PG and %50 VG, and we heat that 50/50 solution to just above the boiling point of PG (188 C). the PG will boil off and leave the VG behind because VG has a boiling at a much higher temperature. VG boils at 290 C.

Clearly we are vaporizing both the PG and VG.

 

[Tbev]

I see.. But besides that do you believe the is anything worth worrying about from cotton? Did you check out the ceramic wick sticks, what do you think?

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

 

[happydave]

I see.. But besides that do you believe the is anything worth worrying about from cotton? Did you check out the ceramic wick sticks, what do you think?

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

yeah check out this photo.

these photos were taken after 2 mL of e-liquid was used.
you can see cotton strands coming through the gaps in the coil, falling over on the coil and burning up...
i was checking the coil periodically with my 30 x loop and it seemed like more strands would pop up and fall over and burn up. sometimes i would see one and other times i would like 5 or 6 strands on the coil. in various stages of thermal decomposition.
not really sure about ceramic wick sticks, but i can tell you that they will not burn like cotton does.
i can not use ceramic wick sticks because my devices require me to bend the wick on installation.

 

[EddardinWinter]

sterile cotton, organic cotton, raw cotton. does not matter for the sake of what im about to explain here.
Cotton is by weight mostly a polysaccharide.
this is common type of molecule. Thermal Decomposition of cotton starts at 150 Celsius. this means that the polysaccharide molecule breaks up and forms new chemicals. Levoglucosan is one of these chemicals. Levoglucosan in and of it self is not toxic but is product of Biomass under going thermal decomosistion. Levoglucosan is often tested for as a marker for thermal decomposition of biomass. now if we just test the vapor for Levoglucosan and it comes back positive. this tells me that the cotton wick is breaking down and forming new chemicals. from what i have found with other studies of people testing the thermal decomposition of cotton, shows a large amount of different and potentially hazardous chemicals can be produced.

I don't mean to be repetitive, but some decomposition does not necessarily equate to a hazard. The decomposition must occur at a rate that produces elevated levels of VOCs greater than tolerances established by ASHRAE, the EPA, etc. to constitute a hazard. The levels produced by a very slow decomposition could be no greater than the VOCs that occur naturally in outside air, meaning the risk level is virtually zero.

If you are using cotton, be aware this is simply a potential, unproven hazard. What happydave is saying is an excellent hypothesis, and he has done some quality research to back up his hypothesis, but at this time it remains an untested theory. I am communicating with an outside group at this time about this question, so it may develop into a study.

At the same time, I am pursuing the individual testing that happydave and I have come up with.

 

[RuDawg7890]

I don't mean to be repetitive, but some decomposition does not necessarily equate to a hazard. The decomposition must occur at a rate that produces elevated levels of VOCs greater than tolerances established by ASHRAE, the EPA, etc. to constitute a hazard. The levels produced by a very slow decomposition could be no greater than the VOCs that occur naturally in outside air, meaning the risk level is virtually zero.

If you are using cotton, be aware this is simply a potential, unproven hazard. What happydave is saying is an excellent hypothesis, and he has done some quality research to back up his hypothesis, but at this time it remains an untested theory. I am communicating with an outside group at this time about this question, so it may develop into a study.

At the same time, I am pursuing the individual testing that happydave and I have come up with.

I really appreciate you guys looking into this. While I believe cotton wicks are safe, I certainly don't fault anyone for checking it out, and thoroughly!
I think it's fair to say that most of us are vaping to be healthier than ingesting tons of analogs' chemicals, so bravo to you guys for trying to keep it safe.
I'm anxious to see the results of your findings.

 

[Tbev]

Me too, thanks guys!

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

 

[Chevren]

I don't mean to be repetitive, but some decomposition does not necessarily equate to a hazard. The decomposition must occur at a rate that produces elevated levels of VOCs greater than tolerances established by ASHRAE, the EPA, etc. to constitute a hazard. The levels produced by a very slow decomposition could be no greater than the VOCs that occur naturally in outside air, meaning the risk level is virtually zero.

If you are using cotton, be aware this is simply a potential, unproven hazard. What happydave is saying is an excellent hypothesis, and he has done some quality research to back up his hypothesis, but at this time it remains an untested theory. I am communicating with an outside group at this time about this question, so it may develop into a study.

At the same time, I am pursuing the individual testing that happydave and I have come up with.

I'm subscribing to this thread, I'm really glad it didn't turn into a pissing contest like it looked like it was headed. Looks like we could get some very solid information out of this!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[_sidekick_]

The problem with that video you posted is that he doesn't even keep the wick saturated. You can see the coils glowing, AKA getting MUCH hotter than they will when the wick is completely wet with eliquid. Have you ever heard of latent heat?

I understand that you've done some research on this, but as of right now, you're making assumptions and educated guesses at best. I still do not believe that inhaling silica fibers is any safer than cotton. I think that we would have seen some issues arising from the cotton decomposing by now if it was creating toxic chemicals. People have been using cotton as wick for years and people are using cotton on ridiculously low resistance builds with no issues. I'm talking .05-.1 ohm resistance builds.

I'm about to rewick my 0.3-0.4 ohm build, so I will post pictures of the cotton after I pull it out.

 

[EddardinWinter]

The problem with that video you posted is that he doesn't even keep the wick saturated. You can see the coils glowing, AKA getting MUCH hotter than they will when the wick is completely wet with eliquid. Have you ever heard of latent heat?

I understand that you've done some research on this, but as of right now, you're making assumptions and educated guesses at best. I still do not believe that inhaling silica fibers is any safer than cotton. I think that we would have seen some issues arising from the cotton decomposing by now if it was creating toxic chemicals. People have been using cotton as wick for years and people are using cotton on ridiculously low resistance builds with no issues. I'm talking .05-.1 ohm resistance builds.

I'm about to rewick my 0.3-0.4 ohm build, so I will post pictures of the cotton after I pull it out.

Challenge every assumption! I also believe cotton wicks are safe...but I don't know they are. I am willing to have my perspective changed.

I am glad happydave challenged this assumption, as I am glad you are challenging that clip.

 

[_sidekick_]

Here is the picture of my wicks. These have been in use for 2 full days at 0.3-0.4 ohms. Battery voltage always between 4.2-3.6V. That's between 45-55 watts at peak voltage. The wicks are dark, because the liquid I've been using is very dark. I've circled the parts of the wick that were inside of the coil. Barely any darker than the rest of the wick at all. No fraying, other than the wick that came apart when pulling it out due to being a little too tight inside the coil.

 

[happydave]

so i ran all of this information past an individual i personally know, who has PHD in chemistry.
the person brought up and interesting point.
a single flavor can contain hundreds if not thousands of different chemicals. these flavor chemicals when in combination with the chemicals produced from the thermal decomposition of the cotton wick come together, it has is serious POTENTIAL to create a vast number of new chemicals. what exactly these chemicals are, how hazardous they are is not known to us at this point.
if just a few cotton strands burned up and you inhaled it, its not the end of the world. repeated exposure could pose some heath risks.

for the longest time, people were pretty adamant that the cotton was not burning what so ever.
in these photos you can see cotton strands poking up through the gaps in the micro coil, the strands fall over, land on the outside of the coil, dry out and begin the process of thermal decomposition. this occurred over the course of my tests. when i first made the coil i check it with the 30 X loop and saw the fibers sticking out. i said, "well they will burn up on the test fire and i wont need to worry about it".. about every other puff more strands would pop out and fall over on the coil. sometimes i would count 1 or 2 on the outside of the coil other times it would be 6 or 7.

 

[EddardinWinter]

Here are two of mine. Last changed on Sunday afternoon, so they have had extended duty on a 0.6 ohm unit. I estimate I have dripped perhaps 8 or 9 mls into them, as I vape multiple devices using between 8-10 mls/day.

So they are darker. How much of that is from the coil? How much is the gunk that builds on the coils? I dunno...the liquid was 80 VG 20 PG, Gaia from HHV.

 

[happydave]

Here are two of mine. Last changed on Sunday afternoon, so they have had extended duty on a 0.6 ohm unit. I estimate I have dripped perhaps 8 or 9 mls into them, as I vape multiple devices using between 8-10 mls/day.

So they are darker. How much of that is from the coil? How much is the gunk that builds on the coils? I dunno...the liquid was 80 VG 20 PG, Gaia from HHV.

are you using kanthal wire? do you change the coil when you change the wick? if not do you "dry burn" just the coil to remove the "gunk"?

 

[happydave]

this is a 2 MM silica wick that i ran on my Fogger v3 (similar in design to an EVOD / ProTank but the fogger is an RBA)
use about 12 mL of 6 mg of nicotine, Flavored e-liquid.
32 awg kanthal 5/6 wrap on a 2 mm drill bit. 2.2 ohm coil at a 3.9 volts.
i make my own e-liquid.
17 mL batch
0.3 mL of flavor concentrate, the flavor concentrate is "dark Devil" its a tobacco flavor from totally wicked USA.
1.24 mL of distilled water.
nicotine is dissolved in VG.
USP food grade VG accounts for the remainder of the batch.
the finished e-liquid has a light yellow color, i would not call it a "dark" e-liquid.




in my next test i will use a TON of flavor.
on a sub ohm RDA with a silica wick.

 

[EddardinWinter]

are you using kanthal wire? do you change the coil when you change the wick? if not do you "dry burn" just the coil to remove the "gunk"?

Kanthal, 30 gauge.

No, I don't change the coil each time I re-wick.

I dry burn, shoot it with a bit of 99% isopropyl, and blast it with the dust can aerosol. I wipe the deck with a Q-tip, too. It's clean when I am done.



Roaring thunderously via Tapatalk...

 

[happydave]

Kanthal, 30 gauge.

No, I don't change the coil each time I re-wick.

I dry burn, shoot it with a bit of 99% isopropyl, and blast it with the dust can aerosol. I wipe the deck with a Q-tip, too. It's clean when I am done.



Roaring thunderously via Tapatalk...

another important consideration is the aluminium oxide layer that forms on the surface of the kanthal wire after its been heated. this layer is brittle and flakes off. i will see if i can get a close up of this layer.

through the 30x loop you can see that a wire that has been dry burned is covered in a fine gray substance. but my camera is not good enough to pick it up :/

 

[happydave]

subohm rig is done.
twisted 30 awg
you can see the twists!
View attachment 324933
dropper top for scale
View attachment 324932
2 strands of 2 mm silica 4 wraps around the silica strands. 0.8 ohms.
the Rig! 18650 mech
View attachment 324934
17 mL batch
going to use 2.5 mL of various dark flavor concentrates
Lorann cotton candy 1.0 mL
lorann blueberry 1.0 mL
lorann raspberry .5 mL
the other 14.5 mL will be USP food grade VG.
2.1 mg of nicotine per mL.
i will run it until it tastes burnt then pull the wick and coil and post pictures.
here is the finished batch
with back lighting to get a good idea of the color.
UPDATE: this test was botched because i could not remove the wick and coil with out damaging them. may try this one again later.

anyone with questions, comments or observations please feel free to chime in.

 

[vapdivrr]

here is my 2 cents, first why wasn't the thread just called " cotton, potentially harmful?" it just seems kind of funny that all this came about as an inquiry of an interest of optional wicking materials. anyways no questions or interests in any or all aspects of vaping is ignorant, I think the more info on what were all doing is the way it should be but imo every aspect of vaping is potentially harmful. I have heard it all, its the pg, its the vg, its the nicotine, then its batteries exploding from over charging, or melting from high amperage draw. also its the chromium from kanthal, I also have heard potential dangers of silica, ceramic wicks, potential leaching from the poly tanks, how about the copper positive post leaching into the juice. im sure there is more potentials out there that I forgot, oh yes now cotton! the bottom line is yes, im sure there is a potential for cotton as well and its great to figure out what it is if any but its just speculation and after a week or so this thread will be on page 10 just like all the other potentials that have come before. I know vaping has improved my health in the 3 years since quitting cigs but I also know that it has its own hazards as well, no matter what were vaping there will be potentials. I doubt very much that there is a such thing as a 100 percent healthy vape.

 

[serenity21899]

I've used hollow ekolwool. I like it more than silica. But I also use cotton, now.

ETA: That would be with a 28g Kanthal microcoil. I dryburn and rewick every few days, or when I make a drastic change in juice.