opinions on wick

[EddardinWinter]

Interestingly enough. I left my wicks on my desk last night after I posted the pic.

Here they are today...

What does this photo tell us? For one, the liquid most certainly does turn to gas at temperatures much lower than 150C. The temperature in my office is much cooler than that. I also started to look at it. It actually convinces me that very little of the black matter is scorched cotton...wanna know why? Of course you do. Because you can see where the coil buildup is smeared down the length of cotton. There is no way this all could have been burned...the spots where the coil could have burned the wick don't go nearly that far.

Now, I think Fulgarant's point that the entire wick doesn't have to reach temp is VERY important. What you are seeing bubble on the coil is the (relatively small) amount of liquid that is transferred by the wick to the coil. I bet the difference in temperature between the coil and the wick is very, very large. Are some portions of the wick being scorched? There must be some. The relevant question is, "Is the amount being burned significant enough to cause harmful levels of VOCs?" That, I think, is a very fair question.

I continue to believe that answer is, "no".

 

[Mark Anthony]

Same here, I've used alot of different wicking materials but I'm almost exclusively using organic cotton now.

Yep.... same here. You're limiting yourself extremely without cotton.

 

[Jumpin' In...]

Well, I, for one, find all of this fascinating and would like to see where this goes. Who'd have thought that we would have the expertise available right here on the Forum to get some of these questions answered?

The way I look at it, the more I know, the better decisions I can make. (Well, theoretically, anyway...)

I think using cotton wicks - as opposed to silica - results in better flavor, but I KNOW that I sometimes cause my cotton wicks to burn. I'm pretty sure that it's the taste of cotton just starting to burn that tells me when I need to drip more juice into my rda and when one of my clearos is completely empty and ready for cleaning. I also occasionally get a full blast of burnt cotton when I don't catch that taste coming on soon enough. Up to now, I've just sloughed it off as being insignificant, but I don't really know that for a fact.

In fact, a couple of days ago I looked at the back of the bag of "organic" cotton balls I got from Walgreens and saw "Contents: Organic cotton whitened with hydrogen peroxide".

Subscribed.

 

[_sidekick_]

This is why I always advise the use of sterile rolled cotton over the organic cotton balls. They must at least be boiled to get rid of the peroxide. It is dangerous to inhale hydrogen peroxide.

 

[EddardinWinter]

This is why I always advise the use of sterile rolled cotton over the organic cotton balls. They must at least be boiled to get rid of the peroxide. It is dangerous to inhale hydrogen peroxide.

How much Hydrogen Peroxide do you think is on a dry cotton ball?



Roaring thunderously via Tapatalk...

 

[Fulgurant]

This is why I always advise the use of sterile rolled cotton over the organic cotton balls. They must at least be boiled to get rid of the peroxide. It is dangerous to inhale hydrogen peroxide.

The beautiful thing about hydrogen peroxide is that it naturally degrades into water and oxygen. So the concern with bleached organic cotton, as I understand it, isn't so much the hydrogen peroxide (which will almost certainly be gone before you buy the cotton); the concern is that trace amounts of the agents used to keep hydrogen peroxide stable during the bleaching process might linger.

And that's a pretty small concern. If you're super risk-averse, you'd buy organic cotton and boil it in distilled water. That's the best of both worlds (organic and sterile). Pre-bought sterile cotton might contain trace chemicals that are safe for treating wounds, but not necessarily safe for inhalation.

Personally, I don't think boiling is necessary, but it does seem to make the cotton taste better. Probably just my imagination, but waddyagonnado?

 

[RebelGolfer72]

The beautiful thing about hydrogen peroxide is that it naturally degrades into water and oxygen. So the concern with bleached organic cotton, as I understand it, isn't so much the hydrogen peroxide (which will almost certainly be gone before you buy the cotton); the concern is that trace amounts of the agents used to keep hydrogen peroxide stable during the bleaching process might linger.

And that's a pretty small concern. If you're super risk-averse, you'd buy organic cotton and boil it in distilled water. That's the best of both worlds (organic and sterile). Pre-bought sterile cotton might contain trace chemicals that are safe for treating wounds, but not necessarily safe for inhalation.

Personally, I don't think boiling is necessary, but it does seem to make the cotton taste better. Probably just my imagination, but waddyagonnado?

Exactly H2O2 degrades rather quickly. Most likely the heat from drying process has that taken care of. I wouldn't use it to dilute my vape juice, but as a bleaching agent, or processing chemical in general, all things considered, it is probably the safest (compared to the oils and other havy metals in stainless production, and god knows what in silica)


and and unless people are boiling the cotton in true, clean distilled h20, in a glass beaker that is guaranteed void of any residuals on the glass, dried in a dust free sterile environment, think boiling may actually contaminating the cotton worse. Tap water/bottled water are loaded with chemicals. Even bottled distilled water may be more "sanitary" in regards to micro organisms, still leeches chemicals from the plastic. The cookware? Impurities embedded into the metal, left over soap residue? And ironically, many detergents and sanitizers that are used to clean home dishes, pharmaceutical, culinary and lab environments have peroxide in them

 

[Jumpin' In...]

Gotta love this place!

 

[treehead]

people get really upset when i tell them some very simple facts about cotton. do what you want. vape what you want.
just know to the best of your ability what it is that your are doing / vaping.
find me someone with a PHD in chemistry / material science, that can prove that using cotton for wick in an e-cig is just as safe as amorphous silica.
then i will consider cotton as a viable option for e-cig wick.

I have a bachelors in biological sciences, and have experience with material science (preface: NOT HATING ON SILICA). Amorphous silica believe it or not does fracture into microscopic shards that are sharp at either end (kinda like little toothpicks that splinter off), only when it's burned without much juice protecting it, which is something most silica users do because you can't really tell when your dry burning. I personally only use silica when rebuilding my carto-tanks now, because they suck at wicking to begin with and I need that protection. These silica shards are very similar to fiberglass (it's not likely that you'll ever be inhaling it though because the juice "holds it down", but it's possible with a powerful inhale and a fairly dry burn. I personally don't like to risk it because there is a "sharpness" that I don't get with ekowool or even better...cotton.

-If you've ever taken a chem class of any kind you'd know that decomposition does not mean destruction, it's like the "half-life" idea for cotton, meaning if cotton were to be in a an oven at the temperature you stated it would begin to bio-degrade, have you ever heard the nature commercials saying plastic bottles will take thousands of years to decompose? It's like that, the beginning temperature of cotton decomposition means it's ever so slightly starting to disappear atom by atom, which means it could be around for years, maybe decades at the temperature, I don't know I'm not looking up the MSDS on it BECAUSE cotton is totally harmless when inhaled (even when combusted!), however berkley did a study that 'petroleum' laden cotton burned gave workers asthma but that was the petroleum causing chronic obstructive pulmonary problems. Cotton is natural, it's only glucose (sugar) connected together via oxygen bridges, it's literally ok to inhale pure organic cotton, even the walmart cotton balls that are disinfected with hydrogen peroxide (fun fact: hp is actually good for the lungs, people inhale it to promote health, you don't need to boil your cotton, it's only creating moisture for bacteria and mildew to form.).

-This is almost not necessary to share because I think we should all be gentleman about what we like for wicks, however I'm a registered nurse and up-and-coming pharmacist so I like to research everything going into my body thoroughly, and as I said before silica can basically turn to fiberglass-like "dust", and that wouldn't be TOO bad if it weren't for it's positive charge that really messes with the lungs, you lungs won't accept anything with a positive charge so it keeps the silica shards there (mind you: IF it ever even makes it to your lungs, juice probably holds it down, but I personally don't want to take the risk ) and can cause something called silicosis (wiki it I don't want to go in detail), something that silica miners used to get because of the silica dust and it's charge, caused everything from asthma, bluish skin, and even small lung lesions. PARTICLE-IZED SILICA CAN CAUSE BRONCHITIS AND CANCER, and the vaporizer has been empirically proven to particilize silica (break it down through heat in microscopic shards), this is the fact that PUT ME OFF silica for good. I will be fair in saying that mostly factory workers get cancer from it, but I won't take that chance, as a vaper will also potentially be inhaling silica for their whole vaping life. Scary

-Again cotton combusts at 750F dry, and the dreaded dry hit from cotton tastes like .... but it's not at all harmful whatsoever, it also warns cotton users that their wick is losing juice and keeps it from catching on fire (which again wouldn't be harmful anyway as it's basically plant sugar derivatives), what you think is decomposition (breaking down rapidly, and not on an atomic scale) is right around 750f, as that's when cotton starts to turn brown and combust when dried, but no vaper in their right mind would EVER get the cotton near that temperature dry, you'd be inhaling cotton smoke long before it actually started to caramelize and waste away.

Again we should all be gentlemen here I'm just sharing my knowledge and past research on the topic
-Cotton is organic, is a harmless sugar made by a plant, and is harmless even if your stupid enough to combust it and inhale it.
-Silica is a chemical compound synthesized by man, and is basically unrefined glass, and can POTENTIALLY cause cancer, bronchitis, and silicosis.

(That's all I need to hear , however like I said it's probably extremely hard to have lung complications with silica, especially if it's always submerged in juice. But I'd rather stick with better wicking, no chance of cancer, and a wick mother nature gave us...go ahead and say it I sound like a hippie, maybe I am!)

SILICA: Silicon dioxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
COTTON: Cotton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[treehead]

This is why I always advise the use of sterile rolled cotton over the organic cotton balls. They must at least be boiled to get rid of the peroxide. It is dangerous to inhale hydrogen peroxide.

Why does everyone think hydrogen peroxide is dangerous to inhale?! People INTENTIONALLY inhale it for hollistic lung therapy, it can actually CURE chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Does anyone who is afraid of cotton balls (commonly used to dab skin lacerations btw, if you FDA regulated to enter your bloodstream, it's ok to use near your lungs) know what google is?! XD I've seen this alot.

Here's a guy who inhales 5-7 times per day on 5-6 sprays of hydrogen peroxide, one of millions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT1_Rkl0B1M
<iframe width="640" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/aT1_Rkl0B1M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Cotton balls are fine people, all your doing by boiling them is wasting money, and precious vaping time. In fact I asked a bio-chemist recently about the topic and he agreed with my theory:

-all it does is provide moisture for bacteria to culture, mildew to form (even worse in a plastic bag), and when you squeeze out the water with our relatively disgusting hands, it's like licking a doorknob. Let alone thirsty insects if you live down south. I think the idea of getting cotton wet, and attempting to dry it (most probably don't completely) is a little scary as those cotton balls will be moist and sitting around somewhere in a sealed bag for months.

 

[treehead]

air pressure?
so the boiling point of VG at 1 atmosphere or 14.7 PSI is 290°C
according to the FDA the temp inside of the e-cig that they tested was 40 to 65°C
lets say for example it was a constant 65°C
VG would need to be at 0.003157 atmosphere or about 0.04 PSI in order to boil at 65°C (roughly)
0.04 PSI is some where between 99.00 and 99.70 percent vacuum.
to give you an idea outer space is not 100 percent vacuum.
Vacuum Pressure - Converting Units
but lets just say for fun you some how are able to pull a %50 vacuum with your own lung power, the boiling point of VG is still 250°C.
a Dyson vacuum cleaner can not pull a %50 vacuum.

liquids and gases have a wonderful property known as Entrainment. i believe this is more or less what you are going for. i would say it plays a major roll in how an atomizer works. but this does not change that the fact that if you want to take a liquid and turn it into a gas you need to boil it.
Entrainment (engineering) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'd like to see your source for air pressure properties, I'm familiar with hundreds of eliquid msds's but I've never seen pressure variables. And I may be wrong but if my memory serves me correctly the boiling point for vegetable glycerine (the kind we use for food/vaping and not technical grade) is 290C which is a big difference.

-I'm not even sure what's being discussed just thought I'd chime in this looks interesting. But all vapor needs to occur is a drastic change in temperature, atmosphere's don't really have jack all to do with it on earth.
VG vapor pressure itself is: .0025mm HG @ 5, while the density is 3.17 (water, H2O is 1), with the heat produced in an average RDA being around 1000F conservatively, I think there's alot wrong with your math...

 

[Butters80]

I am intrigued by this thread but will admit I am biased as a cotton user. Boiling vs not, comes down to personal preference. I prefer to boil my sterile rolled cotton in distilled water and rinse in distilled water.... I do however dry the cotton in my oven at 150 degrees checking every few minutes until it is thoroughly dry so as not to promote growth of anything.

 

[_sidekick_]

Why does everyone think hydrogen peroxide is dangerous to inhale?! People INTENTIONALLY inhale it for hollistic lung therapy, it can actually CURE chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Does anyone who is afraid of cotton balls (commonly used to dab skin lacerations btw, if you FDA regulated to enter your bloodstream, it's ok to use near your lungs) know what google is?! XD I've seen this alot.

Here's a guy who inhales 5-7 times per day on 5-6 sprays of hydrogen peroxide, one of millions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT1_Rkl0B1M
<iframe width="640" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/aT1_Rkl0B1M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Cotton balls are fine people, all your doing by boiling them is wasting money, and precious vaping time. In fact I asked a bio-chemist recently about the topic and he agreed with my theory:

-all it does is provide moisture for bacteria to culture, mildew to form (even worse in a plastic bag), and when you squeeze out the water with our relatively disgusting hands, it's like licking a doorknob. Let alone thirsty insects if you live down south. I think the idea of getting cotton wet, and attempting to dry it (most probably don't completely) is a little scary as those cotton balls will be moist and sitting around somewhere in a sealed bag for months.

Umm... Is that why the MSDS for hydrogen peroxide says that it is toxic if inhaled?

 

[pt91]

I would have been on the cttn bandwagon most probably if I had ever got past the taste. Besides taste I will have to veer toward the testing on the silica side. I change my silica or readywick/ceramic and coils more often just to be on the safe side.

 

[Tbev]

Dave, treehead thanks for the input, much appreciated, I think it's great that we have some educated guys on here willing to spend their time and brain power working towards informing the rest of us clowns, again much appreciated, anyone who jumps down your throat, going on about irrelevant bs, air pressure, or the like, needs (MODERATED) IMHO.

 

[happydave]

I'd like to see your source for air pressure properties, I'm familiar with hundreds of eliquid msds's but I've never seen pressure variables. And I may be wrong but if my memory serves me correctly the boiling point for vegetable glycerine (the kind we use for food/vaping and not technical grade) is 290C which is a big difference.

-I'm not even sure what's being discussed just thought I'd chime in this looks interesting. But all vapor needs to occur is a drastic change in temperature, atmosphere's don't really have jack all to do with it on earth.
VG vapor pressure itself is: .0025mm HG @ 5, while the density is 3.17 (water, H2O is 1), with the heat produced in an average RDA being around 1000F conservatively, I think there's alot wrong with your math...

"VG would need to be at 0.003157 atmosphere or about 0.04 PSI in order to boil at 65°C (roughly)"

notice that i said (roughly) because this is not exact but rather an estimation.
this calculator is not exact but it will give you a general idea..
Boiling Point Calculator

 

[happydave]

I'd like to see your source for air pressure properties, I'm familiar with hundreds of eliquid msds's but I've never seen pressure variables. And I may be wrong but if my memory serves me correctly the boiling point for vegetable glycerine (the kind we use for food/vaping and not technical grade) is 290C which is a big difference.

-I'm not even sure what's being discussed just thought I'd chime in this looks interesting. But all vapor needs to occur is a drastic change in temperature, atmosphere's don't really have jack all to do with it on earth.
VG vapor pressure itself is: .0025mm HG @ 5, while the density is 3.17 (water, H2O is 1), with the heat produced in an average RDA being around 1000F conservatively, I think there's alot wrong with your math...

you are aware that i responded to another post without quoting it... right?

also "heat produced in an average RDA being around 1000F conservatively"... how did you come up with 1000 degrees fahrenheit?

 

[Fulgurant]

I'd like to see your source for air pressure properties, I'm familiar with hundreds of eliquid msds's but I've never seen pressure variables. And I may be wrong but if my memory serves me correctly the boiling point for vegetable glycerine (the kind we use for food/vaping and not technical grade) is 290C which is a big difference.

-I'm not even sure what's being discussed just thought I'd chime in this looks interesting. But all vapor needs to occur is a drastic change in temperature, atmosphere's don't really have jack all to do with it on earth.
VG vapor pressure itself is: .0025mm HG @ 5, while the density is 3.17 (water, H2O is 1), with the heat produced in an average RDA being around 1000F conservatively, I think there's alot wrong with your math...

Based on what little I could dig up on the subject, a human being sucking through a straw can create up to 1/4 of an atmosphere in negative pressure. Based on a little experimentation with a boiling point calculator (possibly even the same one dave linked to), that might reduce the boiling point of VG to as little as 273C, if I recall correctly (and assuming that both dave and myself are applying the numbers correctly).

Would that phenomenon make a night and day difference on its own? No. But it surely might help.

In any case, when I mentioned air pressure, I was just spitballing at Dave's request. In retrospect, I shouldn't have been so accommodating, because the air pressure thing's become an excuse for certain people, who've added nothing of their own to the thread, to mock me for engaging in non-constructive conversation.

By the way, here's a good info sheet on glycerin: http://www.sbioinformatics.com/design_thesis/Glycerol/Glycerol_-2520Properties&uses.pdf (vapor pressure's the fifth entry)

And here's one on Kanthal: Kanthal A-1

 

[happydave]

this is a 7.3 ohm Micro coil, please forgive the sloppy coil job because i can not get this coil to glow at all and that prevents me from getting it red lot and pushing the coils together...
this is 7.3 ohms at 5.0 volts... 3.42 watts! (to be exact)
the first number that appears on the mods screen is the "puff counter" that's is totally irreverent. the second number (5.0) is the volts.
it takes a long time for this thing to heat up...
the e-liquid is %20 PG, %80 VG.

 

[happydave]

i did change the wick out and did manage to get the coil to behave a bit.
this is the same 7.3 ohm coil at 4.0 volts... 2.19 watts.