PEG a new ingredient, instead of PG and VG

[Nick O'Teen]

Pg was the one used in the New Zealand studies and there is reserch that shows it has some know good qualitys. I don't like the research on PEG. I feel PG is "safer" than PEG. PEG is probably cheaper than pg and as usual the makers are looking for cheapiest without regard to quality.

In fairness, the LD50 for mammals is actually ~50% higher for PEG than for PG, so it could well be argued that PEG is safer than PG (it is certainly less toxic):

PEG: http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Polyethylene_glycol_400-9926620

"Toxicological Data on Ingredients: Polyethylene glycol 400: ORAL (LD50): Acute: 30200 mg/kg [Rat]. 28915 mg/kg
[Mouse]. 26800 mg/kg [Rabbit]. DERMAL (LD50): Acute: >20000 mg/kg [Rabbit]. VAPOR (LC50): Acute: >13 ppm 8
hours [Rat]."

PG: Material Safety Data Sheet

"Oral, mouse: LD50 = 22 gm/kg; Oral,
rabbit: LD50 = 18500 mg/kg; Oral, rat: LD50 = 20 gm/kg; Skin,
rabbit: LD50 = 20800 mg/kg."

Either way, it's over 20 grams/kg for mammals - I'm not going to lose any sleep over vaping a few mg at a time, when it would take a quantity 1000s of times greater to be life-threatening. There is far worse in the food we eat, the water we drink, and the air we breathe.
Not to mention massively higher doses of PEG approved for medicinal ingestion in laxatives than you're ever conceivably going to accumulate from vaping it.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

I do believe it is-- I.E. 24 mg per 1,000 ml (.024mg per 1 ml) that is what i found on a chinese suppliers site, I cannot find it right now but i am almost positive, please correct me if im wrong.

that's a (not uncommon) unit translation error - it's 24 mg/ml. The base units of weight and volume are not equivalent - 1 litre = 1000 grams of water, not 1 gram (thus 1 g = 1 ml, and 24 mg/ml = a 2.4% solution.)

a solution of 0.024mg/ml nicotine would have no subjectively detectable psychoactive effect unless you drank it by the pint, assuming the commonly stated estimate that an average cigarette supplies 1mg of nicotine to the smoker.

 

[hason74]

that's a (not uncommon) unit translation error - it's 24 mg/ml. The base units of weight and volume are not equivalent - 1 litre = 1000 grams of water, not 1 gram (thus 1 g = 1 ml, and 24 mg/ml = a 2.4% solution.)

a solution of 0.024mg/ml nicotine would have no subjectively detectable psychoactive effect unless you drank it by the pint, assuming the commonly stated estimate that an average cigarette supplies 1mg of nicotine to the smoker.

Ty, for clearing this up for me, i appreciate it, then these products should be labeled poisonous as 60 mg of nicotine can kill, i was thinking of selling the liquid, and if i do it will have a childproof cap and a poison sticker on it, some of these flavors smell pretty good, and i could just imagine a kid drinking 30 ml of 36 mg liquid which would be 1080 mg of nicotine , wow even the lowest amount u could get without going no nicotine could be fatal, please correct me if im wrong once again on the fatal factor..

 

[hason74]

, assuming the commonly stated estimate that an average cigarette supplies 1mg of nicotine to the smoker.

here too i thought 1 cigarette supplied .1 mg of nicotine.

 

[jcoppers]

Just a few thought in random order on this thread.
(1) As far as the nic juice goes label it as poison, sell it in childproof bottles, whatever helps you sleep at night. Not to sound like an arrogant ... but in my opinion it is the purchasers responsibility to ensure that their kids don't get their hands on this stuff. I keep my juice in my gun safe, cool, dark and kids cant get it.
(2) As far as questions about the chemicals, If Exogenesis says don't use it I would recommend you listen. If you're not sure look for some of his other posts...If he's not a chemical engineer he should be.
(3) Exo, good work on the chemical breakdown of the gunk on the atomizers. Didn't understand halh of what you wrote, but if you want a gas chromatograph machine you are more on the ball than I am, good luck getting one , I can only imagine the stuff you would come up with then. I found them on Ebay as low as 1200 american

Thanks to everyone who makes this a great place to discuss these devices.

John

 

[exogenesis]

Cheers for the vote of confidence jcoppers,
I'm same as most here as regards most things e-cig,
but I'm learning.

Perhaps we should have a whip-round to raise $1200 to get
our own communal gas analyser, could be pretty useful.

 

[snubber]

You all do know that PEG is used as a laxative??? You can use it but you may be sh...tin like a goose before too long.
If you don't believe me, look at the label for MIRALAX

 

[gep]

You all do know that PEG is used as a laxative??? You can use it but you may be sh...tin like a goose before too long.
If you don't believe me, look at the label for MIRALAX

Yep.....go schedule a colonoscopy and see what they make you drink the night before.

4 liters of PEG...just to make sure they can see clearly.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

 

[-god-]

Yep.....go schedule a colonoscopy and see what they make you drink the night before.

4 liters of PEG...just to make sure they can see clearly.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

sweeet...not only will I be healthier by quitting the analogs, but I'll drop a few pounds too.


...I kid.

 

[katink]

Cheers for the vote of confidence jcoppers,
I'm same as most here as regards most things e-cig,
but I'm learning.

Perhaps we should have a whip-round to raise $1200 to get
our own communal gas analyser, could be pretty useful.

With you and/or our other wizzes as it's handlers, that sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Ty, for clearing this up for me, i appreciate it, then these products should be labeled poisonous as 60 mg of nicotine can kill, i was thinking of selling the liquid, and if i do it will have a childproof cap and a poison sticker on it, some of these flavors smell pretty good, and i could just imagine a kid drinking 30 ml of 36 mg liquid which would be 1080 mg of nicotine , wow even the lowest amount u could get without going no nicotine could be fatal, please correct me if im wrong once again on the fatal factor..

Indeed they should be, and at least one supplier (Totally Wicked) already use child-proof caps and fully CHIP compliant labelling and packaging on all their juices. I hope all suppliers come into line with this before there's a headline-hitting tragedy.

I don't have children, so I don't replace the child-proof cap between refills (the dropper cap screws in securely,) but if I did, I would definitely replace the childproof cap, and always keep the bottles securely out of reach.
Your math is quite correct - this stuff is as dangerous as any strong medications, garden chemicals or cleaning agents you might have in your house, and probably a good deal more palatable/attractive to children. Keep your juice secure, and your family safe (though as has been noted, that's ultimately the end-user's responsibility.)

Good luck if you're going to sell liquid - don't let the toxicity issues put you off, but do start out as you mean to go on, with the right safety labelling and packaging.
You can find an overview of the requirements here: HSE - Chemicals (hazard information and packaging for supply)
the latest detailed legal requirements here: New CHIP regulations
and you can see how they can be implemented with specific regard if you look over Totally Wicked's packaging


EDIT: whoops, I see you're in the US (don't know why I thought you were UK.)
You'll need to check the US requirements for packaging and labelling hazardous materials, as those links are for the UK requirements. But again, I imagine observation of TW's US operation is a good place to start.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

here too i thought 1 cigarette supplied .1 mg of nicotine.

Confusingly noone seems sure how much actually crosses the blood-brain barrier and gives you the hit - it's certainly only a small fraction of the 1mg that survives combustion and gets inhaled (the rest ending up elsewhere in your system, where an overdose would cause real damage, and being eventually excreted.)
But one way to keep units clear is to remember that 0.1mg would more commonly (and properly,) be referred to as 100 micrograms in technical usage.
It's good practice when dealing with SI Units to work within the specified ranges - that's why the prefixes are arranged in thousandfolds (gram/milligram/microgram/nanogram/etc.) so you can change the range when you need to quantify <1 or >1000

 

[MissVapor]

Seems PEG is a little safer especially since my daughters doctor tells her to drink it everyday (miralax) for her constipation..and she is only 7 yrs old.. hmmm

 

[Kate51]

Excellent post RjG. More than happy to support this challenge.

Suppliers, we NEED more clarity.

Kev

Excellent point everybody...self-regulation or imposed regulation???????

 

[kinabaloo]

Seems PEG is a little safer especially since my daughters doctor tells her to drink it everyday (miralax) for her constipation..and she is only 7 yrs old.. hmmm

The key for us is: is it heat stable. I looked into this a week or so back and found just one place that suggested that there might be some decomposition before evaporation, as with VG. Only one mention of this and no details. On the other hand heating PEG is unusual; more is known about heating VG because it can be used as a fuel or to make fuel. A heat-stability test as Exogenesis did for VG will show if there is a problem.

PEG is long chains of ethylene glycol (EG, which is toxic) but PEG does not form EG during metabolism.

In the longer term an alternative to VG is advisable for those with PG allergy.

 

[exogenesis]

Wanted to get some PEG for deposit/denaturation testing as done with VG/PG.
But couldn't get a sensible priced quantity.

Wonder if this US distributer (manufacturer?) will supply to a UK address ?


btw Miralax is PEG 3350 (solid) not PEG 400 (liquid).

 

[kinabaloo]

Wanted to get some PEG for deposit/denaturation testing as done with VG/PG.
But couldn't get a sensible priced quantity.

Wonder if this US distributer (manufacturer?) will supply to a UK address ?


btw Miralax is PEG 3350 (solid) not PEG 400 (liquid).

I know this could be a problem. How about the friendly Boots store? Long shot I guess.

Any on/over the counter product that s, say, 90%+ PEG 400 ??

I imagine PEG might not be metabolised at all but just 'passed out', like, say, plant fibre?

 

[exogenesis]

Tried Boots - no joy.

Might get some of that French juice that uses PEG instead.

 

[kinabaloo]

Tried Boots - no joy.

Might get some of that French juice that uses PEG instead.

That would give some indication, particularly if they have a 0 nic flavorless; maybe just ask them for a small sample of their PEG.

I can't think of anything else at the moment

 

[geeker]

Nasty.

This exactly why it annoys the HELL out of me that everybody buys juice from the same 2 or 3 or 4 factories and sticks their own name on it. I want to KNOW what I'm buying.
Exactly for this reason. Royalsmokers publishes an ingredient list too, and it's PG based. I want that. E-CIG juice kills whatever you put it in. I don't want that. PEG wrecks your kidneys and does something weird to your cells. I'll pass on that too.

You shouldn't have to GUESS if Rookie Yook, oRangiYan, Rippie Juice, etc etc etc is Royal Smokers RY4. And take your chances. With your equipment, or your life.

No store buys cases of Coca Cola and puts "Yippee Cola" on them. Because when you want to buy a Coke, you don't want to play "guess the contents". Stores don't do that. It's ridiculous.

And guess what, it is *OUR* fault for buying it, sight unseen, mystery contents, go ahead and let me stick that in my lungs. Whoops, there goes a kidney. OMG.

For a chemical that you are *ingesting* it is beyond reason for resellers to "relabel" this stuff as their own, and not provide documentation as to what it is. No other industry does this. And if nic-juice was an official food item, or pharma item, it would even be ILLEGAL every country I know of.

Here you go - challenge to resellers. TELL US WHAT YOU ARE SELLING US.

Repeat sales come from service, quality, and prices.... that's the magic formula.

Not by having the "coolest" name on your "top secret" juice. That's just wrong.

That's my opinion.... anybody agree?

I agree wholeheartedly.
Curioser and curioser...nobody cared to find out what was in their analogs. Maybe they were scared to find out.