Perhaps, A Better Way

[sailorman]

Don't worry about it.

Extreme, inflexible and sometimes unreasonable point's of view are inevitable on public forums.

The fact that you mentioned that a cig style model could possibly be effective is too much for some to bear.

Like i said, don't worry about it. Watching someone blow their top when something doesn't fit into their neat little black and white box where they keep the rest of their reality can be entertaining.

I think that holding the view that a beginning vaper is only fit for a cig mimic PV is pretty much the definition of inflexible.

It's a tight little box that holds the view that since someone is a beginner, a cig mimic is the most suitable device for them.

I also find it interesting that the vast majority of people who hold this view are newbs who, a few months later, end up posting about how they want a "real" e-cig.

Over and over and over again, the same thing gets posted. "I started with a Blu (or whatever cig mimic). Then I got this or that. I wish I had gotten it in the first place and skipped the Blu. I wasted $200, but it really wasn't a waste since it got me off cigarettes."

Well guess what.. It WAS a waste, because there is no law that says you have to throw away $200 before you get a decent PV that you'll might well be happy with for years. Nobody likes to admit wasting money. Nobody likes to admit making a newb mistake. But many people do anyway, and you see it right here, time after time.

Have you ever heard anyone with some experience say that they spent $200 on a cig mimic before they got an eGo (or whatever) and they were glad they did because they could never have figured out how to use their ego? No, you haven't.

I'm afraid there is some projection going on here. Again, it's not me that insists reality is shoved into little boxes. Far from thinking in black and white, I see the potential for every beginner to get a good start, from the start. I'm sorry that any argument unsuitable for a bumper sticker seems to you like someone blowing their top. But I'm glad you're being entertained.

 

[sailorman]

This was ME,lol
Only after i had charged my 808 standards for the hundred thousanth time and wore out my 300 W converter in my deisel truck. I think i got tendenitis from switching batteries, I was charging two at a time.
Dont know how many pre-filled carts i went through
Still made it smoke free, 7 months on those 808's, so i dont regret it. I guess my biggest problem was realizing just how much i really smoked in a day....then finding out i needed much bigger hardware. Nic level help alot also. ECF has helped me sooo much, really has made my journey much easier, glad i found it before i burnt my rig down with all my chargers running 24/7!
And considering i was spending 4500-6500 $ a year on stinkies, i have plenty of room for error

Thank you for making my point. How would you feel if, instead of choosing it yourself, based on limited knowledge, some veteran on ECF had suggested that you start with the kit you started with?

How would you have felt now, after 7 months, if it had been an ECF veteran who had told you that, since you are a beginner and must have certain concepts and a certain mindset, the 808 is the right kit for you?

Do you think there would have been any advantage to you if you had started with the kit you have now, right from the get-go?

If you had it to do all over again from the start, would you have done it the very same way?

I don't know about you, but there are lots of things I have no regrets about, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have been better for me if I hadn't done them in the first place. I have no regrets about my first car. But I'd have been way better off if my second car had been my first car.

 

[sailorman]

Just my thoughts...........

I think that some newbies come to the forum with the idea that PVs are a magic bullet. A lot of them come in, don't bother to read any of the stickies or basic info. They say that 50.00 is all they ever want to spend on this thing and they want it to work flawlessly the first time without buying anything more, and inspite of not having even basic knowledge of the different parts of a setup. They don't care that they've been spending 300.00 or 400.00 a month before they ever heard of PVs. It must be cheap, it must let them quit smoking without any effort, and it must work forever. They want us to recommend the perfect kit for them.

That's not going to happen. PVs ARE a magic bullet, HOWEVER, you have to be willing to invest some time, effort, and money to make it work. Listen to the vets. They are trying to help you and save you money.

Veterans can't do everything for you. Make an effort, read the stickies, and read lots of threads. Watch You Tube, but please be selective in who you watch. Follow the recommendations of ECF members to find knowledgeable YT videos to watch. Not everyone on YT is knowledgeable, or has the best info on different PVs.

No, it won't all make sense to you right away. You have to persevere, read more, and listen. You didn't go in the first grade and come out with a college education. You have to put in the time and effort. It will be worth it and save you lots of money, time, and frustration in the long run.

This is the way things usually go..........

You will buy a slim ecig that for 90% of smokers will not satisfy them. It will cost you around 50.00, plus as many prefilled cartridges and extra batteries as you want to buy. You will have spent around 100.00 by now. You will be frustrated, and tempted to throw it out the window. However, it will give you a taste for vaping and show you that it is possible for you to quit smoking. The Volt is one of the best slim ecigs to start out with if that's the way you decide to go.

Next you will buy a Kgo, E-Power, or Ego and be happy for a time. It will cost you about 50.00 plus bits and pieces, and eliquid. Buy extra blank cartos and some eliquid. Start with a 80%PG/20%VG eliquid at either 12mg, 18mg, or 24mg. If the vendor does not tell you what the PG/VG percentage and nic mg is, go to another vendor. You will try lots of different eliquid until you find some you like. We can't help you with this as taste is subjective.

The most cost efficient way to start vaping is to start with the second option. You will want to try every carto, atty, and many other delivery systems. This will be expensive and may, or may not work for you. Stick with Boge single coil cartos until you have been vaping a couple of months so you will at least have a baseline to compare other things you might want to try later.

You may be very satisfied with the second option and never want to try any other PV. This is fine. It's a nice middle ground that works for a lot of people. At this point, you will only have to spend about 50.00 a month, probably less, on replacing disposable bits and pieces, and buying more eliquid.

Congratulations. All the hard work paid off, you are an ex-smoker, improving your health, and saving lots of money.

Thank you. Excellent post. There are only one or two e-cig models that are even worth discussing and the volt is one of them. But even they suffer from the limitations of anything with a tiny battery.

I keep seeing people posting that they started with a Blu or something, spent $200, went on to step #2 and felt that the first $200 they spent wasn't a waste because it got them off cigs. I guess it depends on your definition of "waste". Did the Blu actually teach you anything useful that you didn't get from elsewhere? It bought you a month or three of not smoking while you learned from other sources, but is that why you bought it?

If I my options are to fly across the ocean for $5000, or spend $5000 to get halfway across on a barge, and then fly the other half for another $5K, what option makes sense? If I choose to take the barge first, is it a waste? I won't have any regrets, because I still get to the other side. But was it necessary to spend $5K to go halfway first? Maybe if I needed the first leg to get over my fear of flying, it was. Otherwise, no. It was not necessary. Just like it's not necessary to spend hundreds of dollars figuring out what a few hours of research or anyone with experience tell you for free.

 

[andyman97]

You make a good point, sailor, but you're talking a $200 initial investment, that's a far cry from $50-75 which is much easier to stomach. Of course, this is for people that know the ego/kgo/big battery mods exist and know there is a difference. When I picked up my 808 kit, I had no idea what an ego was. I had no idea what an 808 was, I had no idea what a mod was. For me, all I had ever seen/heard of were the slim e-cigs. I didn't even realize this forum existed or that people made video reviews on youtube. It took me several weeks to get bored with the same flavor and start looking for bottles of juice. That's when I found the forum, reviews, youtube, etc. That's when I went for an ego.

Granted, I know you're talking about people who come in and ask questions and don't want to do the research or take the advice they are given, but for argument's sake, using your analogy, it's more of an issue of hindsight, at least for me. Had I known when I picked up my 808 that there was something so much better, such as an ego, or a nice big battery mod that had variable voltage, I probably would've moved straight into that from the start.

But then again, I had nobody to mentor me whatsoever. I knew e-cigarettes existed and that was about all I knew at the time.

The bigger issue at hand is the investment. Again, a $50 starter kit is easy compared to a $150 mod that doesn't include batteries or a charger or cartos/attys. People who are just starting out haven't necessarily quit yet and don't know if they'll even like vaping but are looking to move away from analogs. We can shout at them all day that they need an ego or a mod because it's the best but if doesn't appeal to them, it just doesn't appeal.

 

[imsoenthused]

I think sailorman's point is that recommending better product for new vapors in the long run is more responsible than recommending some mini PV that they will likely not be satisfied long term just because "that's where they're at right now". In spite of any good intentions, it is a condescending and demeaning thing to do to another human being. I think mini PVs have their place, and anyone who wants one should be able to get it, but I also think they should be doing so with eyes wide open to all the traits of such a system, good and bad. I think if every new vapor started on an ego style battery, you'd see far fewer of them buying minis than we currently see people who started with minis buying egos, IMHO.

 

[Caridwen]

Perhaps I have the wrong idea entirely, but somehow I don't think so. There has to be a better way to show beginners without endorsing any one product and yet warning them of the bad ones. It also has to be separated somehow from all the rest of the information.


While I still consider myself the newest of the new, I have been down an expensive learning curve. To say I have over purchased would be the understatement of the year. This board has some people that are really wonderful in how far they will go to help someone else out – but even with that, it is really confusing to learn about E cigarettes.


You start out thinking that you will just buy a small Ecig, then you learn about constantly having to buy Cartomizers, then extra batteries, then Chargers – snicker. Then you learn those small batteries don't last long, so you go for the next larger size and all of a sudden you realize, you should have bought something bigger. Snicker – is this sounding familiar?


We have Steel Jen, Grimm Green and others making videos and yet no one making a video saying "welcome to the wonderful world of E cigarettes – let me explain the basics to you"!

I am now the proud owner of four mods that I will probably hardly ever use, plus battery and Chargers. All of these are great mods but they are really not for me. I am still stumbling when it comes to E juice and especially the suppliers.


Perhaps someone could convince Steel Jen or Grimm Green to make the most basic video there is! I know Grimm Green has two that touch on the very beginning but not really in the depth that it needs to be and a sticky pointing toward the videos here.

Many people spent a lot of time and hard work putting the tutorials and Info pages together. Most of the information you're talking about is available here for anyone that cares to read it. If not, all they have to do is start a post and ask. Most of the members here are happy to help.

When it's all said and done it's an individual thing because everyone has different needs and different levels of addiction. Buy a reliable kit from a reputable vendor and try it. If you love vaping, it won't be your last pv. If you don't like it, pass it on. None of it is a waste of money the way a carton of cigarettes were. And most basic pv kits are cheaper than I paid for a carton of cigs.

Some people 'think' they need a cigarette-like pv. Many long time vapers go back to mini's when their addiction is gone. If your first pv doesn't work, try something else. Just don't give up. I was fortunate that my very first pv worked for me and I used it excusively for a year. Others need different set-ups to completely quit smoking. Whatever works for you is the right pv and a video isn't going to give you that information.

 

[ctourtelot]

I think sailorman's point is that recommending better product for new vapors in the long run is more responsible than recommending some mini PV that they will likely not be satisfied long term just because "that's where they're at right now". In spite of any good intentions, it is a condescending and demeaning thing to do to another human being. I think mini PVs have their place, and anyone who wants one should be able to get it, but I also think they should be doing so with eyes wide open to all the traits of such a system, good and bad. I think if every new vapor started on an ego style battery, you'd see far fewer of them buying minis than we currently see people who started with minis buying egos, IMHO.

I understand Sailorman's point exactly and I agree that most vapers will upgrade. The problem that I have is that not every slim ecig is crap and not every slim ecig costs $200.

I find that telling a new vaper that they basically don't have a clue about what they need and pushing something else on them is as condescending as assuming they can't handle a bigger unit and should stick with the slim ecigs.

Why can't we just give them in the info on the different types available and show them enough respect to make the decision themselves about what will suit them best. I've been on the frontlines of dealing with a LOT of first time users and for some, it can take hours of instruction just for them to get the draw correct without choking.

There has been a lot of talk about being salesmen vs mentors and telling new vapers what they "need" vs what they "want". Who are we to tell them what they need? Unless they specifically state that they need a battery that will last for 2 days, who are we to tell them they won't like one that lasts for 1/2 a day? I had several customers that could get a days worth of vaping out of a 180mah 4081 because they didn't vape as much as they smoked.

I've had many people who were interested in vaping tell me that even my 808 XL batteries were too much for them. If they feel that strongly about it, I'm not going to tell them "you're going to regret it!" I will tell them that by going with a smaller battery unit, they are going to be sacrificing the time the battery will last between charges. I'll explain the mah ratings and the size of the carts or cartos and estimate how often they will have to refill and then let them decide which route they want to go.

Personally, I don't know much about cars, but I'd be rather put off if I wanted to buy VW Bug and someone told me it was stupid and that I "needed" to have a Hummer. Now if I said that I planned on doing a lot of off-roading and that I often hauled a bunch of equipment around, I'd also be put off if they tried to sell me that same VW Bug, when I needed a Dually.

My point is that we all know how individual ecigs are. Not every heavy smoker is a heavy vaper and visa versa.

To me, if someone wants a slim ecig, I'll warn them about the battery life and then I'd suggest the Volt because I know it performs well.

If someone says they don't want to fuss with it or change batteries often, I'll advise a mod or ego style. But to just automatically assume that they aren't going to be happy with a slim ecig is, IMHO, just as bad as the big advertisers telling them they will only be happy with a slim ecig.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Horseman9]

Why can't we just give them in the info on the different types available and show them enough respect to make the decision themselves about what will suit them best.


To me, if someone wants a slim ecig, I'll warn them about the battery life and then I'd suggest the Volt because I know it performs well.

If someone says they don't want to fuss with it or change batteries often, I'll advise a mod or ego style. But to just automatically assume that they aren't going to be happy with a slim ecig is, IMHO, just as bad as the big advertisers telling them they will only be happy with a slim ecig.

I hope that makes sense.[/QUOTE]

Very well put, agree totally. Its all about what works for YOU, not the next-door neighbor.

 

[imsoenthused]

As I said, minis and super minis have their places. As long as the person buying it is aware of its short comings then they get to vote with their wallet same as anyone. I don't think there is anything wrong with telling someone that minis, super minis, and auto batteries are often a trap that new vapers fall in to with out being aware of their considerable downsides. If they still choose them after being informed of those downsides, atleast they are doing it with their eyes open.

 

[Fyre904]

i can agree and disagree with this for one reason. when you get away from just telling people of a good product you get into numbers, ok would it be easier for me to tell you go out and buy an eGo (any version) and some eGo visions for a good solid vape. Or i could tell you your gonna be looking for a pv that has a battery life of 1000+ mAh and some 1.5ohm cartomizers and a 70/30 pg vg blend ejuice. ok now which would you rather attempt as a new comer to the game?

 

[ambition]

Slim ecigs (omg I used that evil word) have a place.
Some believe that place is the garbage can, but most believe that minis are useful for certain people and certain situations, and won't pretend to know everything about a new users preferences and future direction.

Super minis, for me aren't all that useful for reasons we're all too familiar with, but who here would ever recommend a super mini as the answer?

*sound of crickets chirping*

Yeah ok, people get ripped off at the mall. People get ripped off every day. Preaching to the choir isn't going to stop that.

The attitude that minis like 808's are just for newbs is not only ignorant, but a little insulting as well. Especially since a good portion of the naysayers have never owned one. It's like comparing an ego 650 to a kgo 1100. They look similar, but they're not.

Ugh why did I just try to reason? Really, what the use? (rhetorical)

I am old enough to recognize extreme bias when I see it and I'm wise enough to not bother debating with these characters as they'll get off on making "points" but will rarely concede. It's not debating, discussing or anything else other than trying to reason with a broken record.

Clearly I'm not suggesting that these people should moderate their views, that won't happen. However having said that, consider how when someone acts like an ...... you're more likely to resist their views, whatever they may be.

Their views are often not based on saving people money, but something far deeper. And not born out of concern for the new vaper. Read the signature lines if you don't believe me. Personal-vaporizer-forum.com anyone? Puh-leeze.

What I will suggest is for people with less extreme views to not get sucked into the monologue, the more you resist, the more you'll find yourself being barked at and put down because you don't see the problem if someone chooses a small ecig (uh oh). It's their freakin choice.

 

[djwyman]

OK so I just read all of the ranting and raving about calling these things ecigs or vaporizers. The shop I work at we sell "tobacco" smoking accessories. In that includes items we call vaporizers that use real tobacco not e-liquid. We also sell one brand of the e-cigs but if we were to call them vaporizers it would cause a lot of confusion as they can't be used for what the people come in here for vaporizers are looking for. So if we expand our ecig selection they would have to remain called electric cigarettes not vaporizers.

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

 

[sailorman]

You make a good point, sailor, but you're talking a $200 initial investment, that's a far cry from $50-75 which is much easier to stomach. Of course, this is for people that know the ego/kgo/big battery mods exist and know there is a difference. When I picked up my 808 kit, I had no idea what an ego was. I had no idea what an 808 was, I had no idea what a mod was. For me, all I had ever seen/heard of were the slim e-cigs. I didn't even realize this forum existed or that people made video reviews on youtube. It took me several weeks to get bored with the same flavor and start looking for bottles of juice. That's when I found the forum, reviews, youtube, etc. That's when I went for an ego.

Granted, I know you're talking about people who come in and ask questions and don't want to do the research or take the advice they are given, but for argument's sake, using your analogy, it's more of an issue of hindsight, at least for me. Had I known when I picked up my 808 that there was something so much better, such as an ego, or a nice big battery mod that had variable voltage, I probably would've moved straight into that from the start.

But then again, I had nobody to mentor me whatsoever. I knew e-cigarettes existed and that was about all I knew at the time.

The bigger issue at hand is the investment. Again, a $50 starter kit is easy compared to a $150 mod that doesn't include batteries or a charger or cartos/attys. People who are just starting out haven't necessarily quit yet and don't know if they'll even like vaping but are looking to move away from analogs. We can shout at them all day that they need an ego or a mod because it's the best but if doesn't appeal to them, it just doesn't appeal.

Please dont' misunderstand. I'm not referring to people who buy a drugstore e-cig, then come here to research alternative. They have what they have and they should simply be informed that when they get tired of the constant battery changes, or they feel dissatisfied with the performance, the reason is simply because of the choice they made when they had no information.

My comments are directed toward veterans who, when newbs come here asking what is a good starter, recommend some cigarette look alike. Economy is not a justification. From the stories I've read, plenty of people have paid $100-200 already for a V2 or Blu starter kit and a months worth of cartridges, not to mention the mall and "Free-Trial" deals.

A kGo can kit with 2 batts, charger, atty, 10 cartos and juice can be had for ~$75. My one and only objection is to those veterans who insist that a kit like that is not suitable for a newbie because he has a "mindset" or "concept" that his first e-cig should look like a cigarette. That's my only point. It does a disservice to newbs, puts them on the path to what they will likely soon feel was an unnecessary first step and might even turn them off to vaping altogether. No matter what anyone says, no matter how many times certain posters call me closed-minded or whatever, you can't deny physics and chemistry. A small battery does not and cannot perform like a larger one. That's simply a fact, not an opinion.

If a newb is hellbent on a cig lookalike, that's one thing. I still believe that it is only responsible to discourage them from going that route and, yes, making that mistake. Because the chances are very high that that is what they will consider it. Thousands of testimonials on this forum bear that out. And there is certainly no justification for assuming that it's the way they ought to start or that they'd be confused with something else. To take that attitude is simply patronizing them.

 

[sailorman]

OK so I just read all of the ranting and raving about calling these things ecigs or vaporizers. The shop I work at we sell "tobacco" smoking accessories. In that includes items we call vaporizers that use real tobacco not e-liquid. We also sell one brand of the e-cigs but if we were to call them vaporizers it would cause a lot of confusion as they can't be used for what the people come in here for vaporizers are looking for. So if we expand our ecig selection they would have to remain called electric cigarettes not vaporizers.

I don't care what you call them in your store. In public, I've never had anyone object when I call it my vaporizer. People don't object to vaporizers. They hate cigarettes. If you want to debate the power of language to influence public opinion and public policy with me, you best come well armed. Meanwhile, consider how many low and middle income people had no opinion of the Estate Tax until Frank Luntz decided to rename it the "Death Tax". Now you have millions of people who would never in 100 lifetimes be subject to the Estate Tax sitting there bemoaning it under the delusion that their children will have to pay a "Death Tax".

And I won't even go into the impact upon public attitudes and policies of co-opting the word "gay" or creating the Orwellian phrases "gov't run healthcare" and "healthy forests initiative" or dozens of other examples of how merely re-labeling something has made the acceptable unacceptable, or the unacceptable acceptable.

A demonized word like "cigarette" is not exempt from this sociological phenomenon. Some here seem to think the whole idea is funny and worth snickering at. Go ahead and snicker. People laughed at Frank Luntz when he invented the term Death Tax, but it turned the public against a tax they formerly supported and that was the objective and now he makes millions from manipulating language to manipulate public opinion.

The FDA and the antis love nothing better than to spit out the word electronic CIGARETTE to the public during their propaganda campaigns. They know what they're doing. They use Luntz's techniques all the time. They know how to create prejudice. It's only a new concept to those who are unaware of the extent to which language shapes ideas and affects public opinion.

 

[sailorman]

i can agree and disagree with this for one reason. when you get away from just telling people of a good product you get into numbers, ok would it be easier for me to tell you go out and buy an eGo (any version) and some eGo visions for a good solid vape. Or i could tell you your gonna be looking for a pv that has a battery life of 1000+ mAh and some 1.5ohm cartomizers and a 70/30 pg vg blend ejuice. ok now which would you rather attempt as a new comer to the game?

Exactly. They aren't looking for specifications to go hunt down. If they indicate they're looking for something little and that looks like an analog, inform them of the drawbacks and limitations and if they still insist, name one of the handful of models that at least aren't a complete joke. Of course it's their choice. But, by then, it'll be an informed choice. A choice informed only by mass media advertising is not a "free choice".

Otherwise, recommend a model based on what they tell you or what they answer when you ask them questions. What I think is ridiculous is the newb-to-newb advice that's given with no experience or frame of reference. Some newb likes the 808 mini-cig they got last month, so they figure it'll be just dandy for other newbs, never anticipating that they'll be hunting down something better in three or four months. Worse is when a veteran does this under the assumption that all newbs are too dumb, confused or brainwashed to handle anything else.

 

[djwyman]

I don't care what you call them in your store. In public, I've never had anyone object when I call it my vaporizer. People don't object to vaporizers. They hate cigarettes. If you want to debate the power of language to influence public opinion and public policy with me, you best come well armed. Meanwhile, consider how many low and middle income people had no opinion of the Estate Tax until Frank Luntz decided to rename it the "Death Tax". Now you have millions of people who would never in 100 lifetimes be subject to the Estate Tax sitting there bemoaning it under the delusion that their children will have to pay a "Death Tax".

And I won't even go into the impact upon public attitudes and policies of co-opting the word "gay" or creating the Orwellian phrases "gov't run healthcare" and "healthy forests initiative" or dozens of other examples of how merely re-labeling something has made the acceptable unacceptable, or the unacceptable acceptable.

A demonized word like "cigarette" is not exempt from this sociological phenomenon. Some here seem to think the whole idea is funny and worth snickering at. Go ahead and snicker. People laughed at Frank Luntz when he invented the term Death Tax, but it turned the public against a tax they formerly supported and that was the objective and now he makes millions from manipulating language to manipulate public opinion.

The FDA and the antis love nothing better than to spit out the word electronic CIGARETTE to the public during their propaganda campaigns. They know what they're doing. They use Luntz's techniques all the time. They know how to create prejudice. It's only a new concept to those who are unaware of the extent to which language shapes ideas and affects public opinion.

I get your point and see you are looking at it threw a law perspective. However from a marketing perspective calling them electronic cigarettes makes more since as you are trying to get people to buy these over regular cigarettes as a less harmful alternative. This is also why many companies make them to look like analog cigarettes. If I am trying to sell this to a 10+ year veteran analog smoker. I am not going to call it a vaporizer i am going to call it an electronic cigarette then explain to them that you are inhaling vapor as apposed to smoke and that it contains less harmful stuff than burning tobacco and inhaling it.

I do how ever see your point of view to a certain extent as the place I work for had a long winding battle with another product that I will not mention that would get called one thing and sold as that one thing though it was being used as something else. Once it would get banned the manufacturers would change a few ingredients (usually the ones that were banned) change the name and sell it again until that one was banned also. In the end no matter what you call it if the goverment or FDA or who ever is going to ban it, it will get banned. There will be others who will find loop holes and such but in the end they will ban it if they fill they want to ban it that bad.

 

[sailorman]

I get your point and see you are looking at it threw a law perspective. However from a marketing perspective calling them electronic cigarettes makes more since as you are trying to get people to buy these over regular cigarettes as a less harmful alternative. This is also why many companies make them to look like analog cigarettes. If I am trying to sell this to a 10+ year veteran analog smoker. I am not going to call it a vaporizer i am going to call it an electronic cigarette then explain to them that you are inhaling vapor as apposed to smoke and that it contains less harmful stuff than burning tobacco and inhaling it.

I do how ever see your point of view to a certain extent as the place I work for had a long winding battle with another product that I will not mention that would get called one thing and sold as that one thing though it was being used as something else. Once it would get banned the manufacturers would change a few ingredients (usually the ones that were banned) change the name and sell it again until that one was banned also. In the end no matter what you call it if the goverment or FDA or who ever is going to ban it, it will get banned. There will be others who will find loop holes and such but in the end they will ban it if they fill they want to ban it that bad.

Yep, marketing considerations are the reason people know them as e-cigs and think they ought to look like cigarettes. I totally understand that. In a shop environment, I'd have no problem calling them e-cigarettes. That's not where the potential opposition live. Like here, I call them e-cigarettes or e-cigs out of convenience. But in the outside world, we are in a battle for the support of people who don't smoke and don't vape. Those are the people who cannot be allowed to conflate the terms cigarette and e-cigarette in their minds. If we let them do that, we hurt ourselves every time one of those referendums comes up that tries to lump e-cigs into the same set of laws and restrictions that cigarettes are in.

I would love to see a poll among the public.
Who would favor taxing personal vaporizers?
Who would favor taxing e-cigarettes?
I'd bet the farm that you can get a lot more support for taxing (or restricting) e-cigarettes than you can for taxing personal vaporizers, even if people knew they were the same thing.

In polls, people support the idea of "Publicly funded health care"
They oppose the idea of "Government run health care"
Even when they are exactly the same thing.

I think I can guess what the product was you are talking about. That was a little different situation. The FDA isn't going to ban e-cigs. They can restrict the products, but the real threat is the states and local governments that slap all kinds of restrictions on the use of e-cigs and who will try to tax them as if they are as harmful as cigarettes. Trying to fight those kind of laws is a lot harder if Joe Public equates cigarettes and e-cigs in his mind.

 

[imsoenthused]

Ugh why did I just try to reason? Really, what the use? (rhetorical)

I am old enough to recognize extreme bias when I see it and I'm wise enough to not bother debating with these characters as they'll get off on making "points" but will rarely concede. It's not debating, discussing or anything else other than trying to reason with a broken record.

Funny, I'm old enough to recognize high handed hypocrisy when I see it. But that's ok, hope you "got off" on making your "points".

 

[ambition]

Funny, I'm old enough to recognize high handed hypocrisy when I see it. But that's ok, hope you "got off" on making your "points".

No point. Just trying to prevent the conversation becoming more of a battle of will than it already was.

People need to recognize that others have points of view that cannot be changed. Whats the use of trying unless all you want to do is fire someone up for entertainment. Which sometimes is funny, but only to a certain extent.

Me? Biased?

Sure I am, just like you are.
But I'm not naive enough to think that everyone thinks as I do.

Making points becomes less and less important when it becomes less about the newbies preferences and more about being right.

 

[imsoenthused]

I understand that you think this thread has veered off topic, it definitely has. I understand that you think some people are too vociferous in their insistence that mini and super mini e-cigs are useless, I disagree but will accept your point of view. I don't understand why that makes the discussion involving different points of view useless, and I don't understand why you veered off into a personal attack. The last especially bothered me. I guess I'm saying, it's offensive to come in a forum designed for discussion and call any ones contribution a broken record that's not worth wasting your time arguing with with while at the same time and with no basis calling their reasons for voicing those opinions in to question. Your post #91 made me wish we had a dislike button in these forums, and I don't feel that way very often here.