I apologize if you thought that I was assigning that term to your comments to me. I was not.
I'm not spoiling for a fight at all, just stating my opinions ... but you do seem to be a mite defensive.
Jan
Please DO vap where you can't smoke!!!
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I apologize if you thought that I was assigning that term to your comments to me. I was not.
I'm not spoiling for a fight at all, just stating my opinions ... but you do seem to be a mite defensive.
Jan
Until BO and drenching yourself in cologne/perfume are only allowed in designated places, I have to respectfully state that your desire to not be exposed to someone else's odors is, well, expecting too much.
Jan
No, not at all. Vaping is legal, safe and non-disruptive. I see no reason why it should be prohibited by a private business owner. If they do prohibit it, they're making arbitrary rules that negatively impact me. That's not a trait I find worthy of supporting with further patronage.
I see why you might want to not vape and go to your Korean grill. I'm not suggesting everyone should either vape or leave. Just that I see it as a I described it above. I'm not exactly saying that no place SHOULD prohibit vaping - I'm very strong on private property rights - just that I find the idea of banning something because people freak out over it to be entirely stupid. I get enough of that when I open carry, if someone does the same thing over VAPOR... Yeah, not worth my patronage.
I assume you mean "open to the public". I do. I see no reason why I should ASSUME vaping would be prohibited. If I'm asked by the people who own or work at a place not to vape, I will not vape. But that is likely to be taken care of by my leaving the premises. But vaping is legal and safe. Kind of like drinking a soda. If I don't see a "No drinks" sign, I can and do assume that my Diet Pepsi is okay to have until I'm told otherwise.
I do not control other people's emotions. Everybody controls their own. Someone might be offended by my T-Shirt (I often wear provocative, political shirts), the color of my clothing or the style (I've been asked to leave a bar because I was wearing sweats). They might be offended by my cologne or the fact that I'm NOT wearing any (I know someone who is personally grossed out by people who lack scent entirely because she thinks it means they're not wearing deodorant, despite knowing they make unscented ones).
I can't live my live because someone MIGHT be offended. The person I am and the choices I make will LIKELY offend someone. I don't hurt others, but I don't really care if they choose to be offended by my actions, frankly. It's IMPOSSIBLE to live your life without offending someone, so I think it's best to live your life for you and adjust accordingly.
Here's a reason...
Because, like me, you chose to VOLUNTARILY go to a place where people with different perfume, cologne, dress styles, dietary and chemical dependence issues gather. If you don't like vaping, frequent establishments with no vaping policies. If you don't like cologne, find places that prohibit cologne.
I assume that places that haven't taken time to designate a policy simply do not have one. So when I go to a place with no policies on dress or decorum, I EXPECT to sit next to the super-fat lady who snarls when she eats and catch wafts of her too-numerous cats. Most of the time, that doesn't happen because most people aren't extreme (and by no means would I call vaping extreme! It gives off less odor than most chewing gums). But because I'm in a public place with no policy on it, I assume it's a possibility.
I wouldn't know, I'm not part of an e-cigarette lobby.
I'm a human being and I own my body. This is true FAR beyond the realm of personal vaporizers. I DO intent to (hyperbole, of course) shove THAT down people's throats and I DO expect them to respond with a "Please leave" if they don't like it.
My goal isn't to make everybody like vaping. I don't care if they like it or not. My life goal is to surround myself with and support people who respect my right to make my own choices.
The differance is that in the situation, with your reaction to a sexist/racist remark, you already have public opinion on your side. Go back 30 years, the same method you used to adress that sexist/racist remark would not have had such an effect because you would not have had public opinion on your side. It is the same deal with e-cigs now. eventually we will get to the point where you can react in a similar way to someone complaining about e-cigs... but we arent even close to that point yet.
What someone else does, and what i do are completely differant. Just because little suzie is chewing gum in class, it does not mean that i can chew gum in class. We all learned this lesson a long time ago.
Look I respect what you've said. At 44 my attitudes have mellowed considerably because, well because I've grown up and I realize that I am not the focal point of the universe. I am much more respectful of other people's comfort than I was at 20 because I want people in turn to be respectful of my, and my family's, comfort. I am all for fighting tooth and nail against anti-vaping legislation, but elsewhere I think we need to tread lightly until vaping has penetrated the mainstream mindspace.
My opinion, we aren't compelled to agree, provided we both actually listen to what the other person is saying.
My opinion, we aren't compelled to agree, provided we both actually listen to what the other person is saying.
And the only reason things changed was people standing up and making those comments then ... before they were generally accepted. If they hadn't done that, things would be vastly different today I'm afraid!
I'm not talking about being a Lemming and I think you know that. I'm talking about standing up for my rights and those of other vapers. You are exactly correct ... what you do and what I do are completely different. That doesn't make either one of us wrong.
Jan
I agree that we can disagree!
See that's one difference ... vaping has penetrated mainstream here where I live, and I helped to create that (having converted at least 20 and given out many, many more business cards). That penetration doesn't happen when people hide.
Jan
Shel said:
That's not the issue at all. It's a simple understanding of psychology and the subconscious mind. Many people have a negative association with anything that looks like smoke in an area where it's not allowed. When you blatantly shove it in their face, you trigger that association and put them on the defensive. People on the defensive tend to close themselves down to new information. You've created a situation where you're now fighting an up hill battle in successfully delivering the message that vaping and smoking are not the same thing. There are better ways to go about delivering the message and spreading the word than forcing someone to learn about it when they're in a defensive mental state.
I have no qualms about vaping in public and I don't go hide out with the smokers. I ask if it's OK first. Then I vape. Bars are about the only place I just go ahead and vape without asking first.
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If some had taken that approach, I fear schools would still be segregated, women would not be able to vote, and slavery would still be legal.
Jan
This quote actually makes me smirk because of the similarity between another group I'm part of.
Listen... There's no "one way" to change people's minds. And I know this works AGAINST me as well. There are as many different opinions as there are people, and as many ways to change them as there are people. Any that works is the "right" way, and they're not mutually exclusive.
Public opinion may not have been on my side 30 years ago (and it certainly was NOT on my side when I lived in a specific place in the Bible Belt as little as 7 years ago...) but racism is still destructive, collectivist and uncouth. I would still have said something.
And even though people might not have agreed with me or ostracized the racist around me, it MAY have inspired someone who feels the same way to speak up. And that is EXACTLY how the paradigm shifted over those 30 years. It will take some people setting a good example. It will take some people kicking people in the ... with common sense. It will take ALL of that in order to change how people see things.
That sounds like a good reason to do nothing but cow-tow to the insane demands of irrational people to me.
You said "we" but there is no "we". Just look at this forum. There are groups for people in all walks of life. There are people from just about every continent on this forum. There are men and women. Liberals and conservatives and anarchists. There are dark-skinned and light-skinned people here with degress in between. There are professionals with long-term careers and there are unemployed folks.
"We" aren't a cohesive group and we won't be.
We're the very quintessence of the diversity of individuals. Just as I said earlier that there's no one right way, there's no way that "we" can screw up. We're all individuals and we're all going to have to act like that. Indeed, there's no possible way that a different outcome will happen. So live your life for you and your value set. Stop worrying so much about "getting it right" or others "getting it wrong". You can be the lone vaper taking the charge or you can lay back and wait for a crowd following. I don't know I'll live to see tomorrow, so I'll live according to my values TODAY, even if that means I have to do it without the changing tides behind me!
I see all the arguing for and against vaping where you can't smoke, but all of us are trying to get to the same destination.
We all want to see vaping accepted by the mainstream. some believe that we have to educate the smokers, others say that everyone should be opened up to vaping.
I can understand the argument from both sides.
I personally believe education and communication are the keys
but how we go about teaching people and where we do it is a personal choice, and I will not try and make yours for you.
I think that vaping openly in public, especially in places where smoking is not allowed, opens up more lanes of communication and gives us the opportunity to tell more people about what we do.
While vaping in a place that smoking is allowed only gives us the opportunity to talk to smokers.
really how many non smokers do you know that like to hang out in the smoking area?
It is good to tell smokers about vaping, but the general public needs to know as well.
Those of you who want to introduce smokers to vaping feel free to step outside and talk to them.
I will stay inside and talk to everyone who asks, it doesn't matter to me if its the curious smoker or the offended (but soon educated) non smoker.
Hooligan
We all want to see vaping accepted by the mainstream. some believe that we have to educate the smokers, others say that everyone should be opened up to vaping.
I can understand the argument from both sides.
I personally believe education and communication are the keys
but how we go about teaching people and where we do it is a personal choice, and I will not try and make yours for you.
I think that vaping openly in public, especially in places where smoking is not allowed, opens up more lanes of communication and gives us the opportunity to tell more people about what we do.
While vaping in a place that smoking is allowed only gives us the opportunity to talk to smokers.
really how many non smokers do you know that like to hang out in the smoking area?
It is good to tell smokers about vaping, but the general public needs to know as well.
Those of you who want to introduce smokers to vaping feel free to step outside and talk to them.
I will stay inside and talk to everyone who asks, it doesn't matter to me if its the curious smoker or the offended (but soon educated) non smoker.
Hooligan
That is a ridiculous comparison. Vaping is a choice. Discrimination due to the color of one's skin, their sex, and the taking of their basic human right to freedom are not the same as discriminating because of a choice a person makes.
The point I'm making is that there are ways to communicate a message that are more effective than others. The saying "you'll attract more bees with honey than vinegar" comes to mind.
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I respectfully disagree. While the magnitude of the issue is definitely different, the comparison is valid. If everyone had waited until equal rights or suffrage was accepted as mainstream, they may have never come to be mainstream.
Jan
And how do you know that I'm not just exuding honey? Why assume I come across as vinegar, because I don't.
As I stated before, just because your approach is different than mine, it doesn't make either one of us right or wrong.
Jan
Like he said, vaping is a behavior and a choice. How is that a valid comparison to race and gender which are not?
Hi all.....as a newbie, just from a different perspective; I too don't smoke where traditional smoking is not allowed (Yet). I have found that, when I use the Ladies Room, I've probably converted and exposed more people to vaping than anywhere else. These are the best things EVER and also people are usually more open to the positive.
The fact that the consumption of nicotine for some of us isn't truly a behavioral choice is the difference. Some of us self-medicate for cognitive issues or for the easing of physical symptoms of a medical affliction (Chron's disease for example). This is not a choice in behavior ... it's the "choice" of function or not. That's the difference.
Look, I said that the magnitude of the underlying discrimination is completely different, and my intent was not to offend anyone. BUT I am going to stand by the comparison because to me they truly are in the same vein (with the caveat regarding magnitude that I've already stated multiple times.)
Jan
The problem with the "damn the torpedos" attitude is that it is much the same mindset as "a closed mouth don't get fed". A lot of people are going to perceive you as pushy, selfish, and unwilling to engage in productive communication (the kind where you make your point understood, actually listen to the other person's point, and compromise and/or change your stance on an issue when warranted).
I get what you're saying about not getting the word out if you're hiding in the shadows. That's not what I'm saying though. An intelligent person who is a good communicator can get the word out without stepping on anyone's toes. If you pay attention people let you know how to get what you need from them. You can't pay attention when you're dead set on bending people to your will.
I get what you're saying about not getting the word out if you're hiding in the shadows. That's not what I'm saying though. An intelligent person who is a good communicator can get the word out without stepping on anyone's toes. If you pay attention people let you know how to get what you need from them. You can't pay attention when you're dead set on bending people to your will.
Vape where you want, just be respectful of others and dont be an ... about it......there ya go problem solved.
When i made the decision that i would no longer smoke analogs, and vape instead, i told everyone i knew about it. Smokers and nonsmokers alike. I told my wife, my brothers, my friends, my mother. Most of them are very anti smoking. I truely believe that this is how non-smokers should be introduced to the PV's. It makes them happy i quit, and creates a positive relationship to the PV from the get go.
And that is what we are after, no?
We want to generate an environment where people will be more welcoming of someone using a PV. With ~20% of americans smoking (last i checked) most people know a few smokers. And when you see someone puffing away, you are much more likely to believe that person is smoking instead of vaping. Why you would set yourself up for making your own life difficult is beyond me.
Many want to point to ban's as evidence that we can't be passive, we should be going out and vaping in public areas where smoking is not allowed. And that ban's to vaping, that are surfacing, is mearly missinformation sread by the big bad pharma and big tobacco. Yet we do not acknowledge our own part in the issue. If people werent being so obstinant, if we didnt make people feel like we were being intrusive, if we dont vape where people are not allowed to smoke... there would be no need for people to even care about the PV's let alone start legislation to ban them. Public opinion has a big role to play here.
So why make your life more difficult?
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