Please explain to me: those who died, what were they vaping?

[bombastinator]

I’ve read these two articles, and what’s noteworthy is that the CDC doesn’t know what causes this illness. Like in Wisconsin, they think it’s because of THC pods, but only 77% of the victims have used THC pods. What about the other 23%?

there are two issues.
1: the CDC seems to be relying entirely on self reporting by victims as to what they were using.
2: there are a whole lot more e-cigarette users than THC vape users so the 23% doesn’t accurately portray equivalent numbers.

Also, in NYC they think the culprit is vitamin e oil, but not all of the pods used by the victims contained a lot of that oil.

“A lot” is a vague term. A more useful word would be “enough”.
The problem is there is several ways a vitamin e oil can kill. One is by being vitamin E, and another is by being oil. I don’t know what toxic levels of vitamin E oil are but I’m suspecting they are quite small. Was there enough vitamin e oil to cause problems? Also there is the oil issue. The amount of oil necessary to cause problems is, at least to me, unknown.

standard practice is to use NO OIL AT ALL in ecigarettes. Zero is a mighty hard number to actually achieve of course, but whatever amount does wind up being common it is likely still far less the “a lot”

 

[Punk In Drublic]

The list of pesticides found from the testing lab are in this news article, give the video a watch and then there is an embeded document further down the page.
Tests show bootleg marijuana vapes tainted with hydrogen cyanide

Myclobutanil (fungicide) is what turns into hydrogen cyanide when combusted. Introduced sometime in the 90’s and has been known to be in use with marijuana growers given its effectiveness in combating fungus. Canada has recalled legal pot due to the use of Myclobutanil (it’s banned in Canada), but stated hydrogen cyanide levels were below US safety regulations.

The video within that article has been edited since its initial release. The original video had Mr CannaSafe state even the legally acquired THC cartridges had levels of pesticides and fungicides. Not sure why they would remove that statement. No doubt pesticides and fungicides are in use with crop growers, legal and or illegal. The question is, at what level and how harmful. What is the probability of multiple different causes, Vit E acetate, pesticides and fungicides, all causing similar illnesses across the US at the same time?

To my knowledge (from what I have read on the interwebs), hydrogen cyanide poisoning does not cause lipoid pneumonia as seen with the cases in the US, but attacks the nervous system shutting down vitals

Cigarettes and combustible flower (smoking weed) also contain hydrogen cyanide.

 

[KurtVD]

2: there are a whole lot more e-cigarette users than THC vape users so the 23% doesn’t accurately portray equivalent numbers.

The 77% was how many of the people who fell ill used THC pods. It doesn’t matter that there are lot more nicotine vapers, if 23% of the victims didn’t use THC pods (and don’t lie about it), but otherwise have exactly the symptoms, you can’t really conclude that THC pods is the cause of all that. There must be an explanation which explains all of the cases, not just 77%.

“A lot” is a vague term. A more useful word would be “enough”.

Yes, they used a term like ‘a lot’ or something similar to describe the vitamin e content of the THC pods. I agree that this is a bit strange, but they seem to say that some people have fallen sick while vaping THC pods with a very little vitamin e.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

The 77% was how many of the people who fell ill used THC pods. It doesn’t matter that there are lot more nicotine vapers, if 23% of the victims didn’t use THC pods (and don’t lie about it), but otherwise have exactly the symptoms, you can’t really conclude that THC pods is the cause of all that. There must be an explanation which explains all of the cases, not just 77%.


Yes, they used a term like ‘a lot’ or something similar to describe the vitamin e content of the THC pods. I agree that this is a bit strange, but they seem to say that some people have fallen sick while vaping THC pods with a very little vitamin e.

And what is the probability of nicotine use and THC use causing the same illness at the same time? There are millions who consume both products world wide, with little to no reported illnesses. The US is the only region that I am aware of that has introduced Vitamin E acetate into the THC market as a cutting agent. As stated in my first post, it was introduced late last year. Give it a few months to gain popularity and distribution and you now have your current epidemic.

The 23% is either lying, has an unrelated illness (which I kinda doubt), or the CDC is not giving us the full details.

 

[Uncle Willie]

While I agree with the sentiment, the problem is the same one seen with many utopian concepts. It assumes perfect instant action at least at some point. These perfect action points are in practice impossible.
All of the lawmaking behaviors were very very fast. Too fast for information gathering to catch up.

I'm still wondering what your solution would be had you been Legislating ..

 

[KurtVD]

The US is the only region that I am aware of that has introduced Vitamin E acetate into the THC market as a cutting agent

Plus, and I don’t have any numbers, but I’m quite sure about it, vaping THC is a lot more popular in the US than anywhere else in the world.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Plus, and I don’t have any numbers, but I’m quite sure about it, vaping THC is a lot more popular in the US than anywhere else in the world.

Don’t be so sure on that. Half of Canada is stoned and given it is legal to smoke in public, the other half is getting stoned from second hand smoke! One can have a great time walking the streets of Toronto….just bring your own munchies!

 

[bombastinator]

The 77% was how many of the people who fell ill used THC pods. It doesn’t matter that there are lot more nicotine vapers, if 23% of the victims didn’t use THC pods (and don’t lie about it), but otherwise have exactly the symptoms, you can’t really conclude that THC pods is the cause of all that. There must be an explanation which explains all of the cases, not just 77%.

“Can’t conclude”? Who is concluding? Only you. I’m merely saying that assumptions that the problem is shared even 77-23 is grossly inaccurate.

Here’s the thing: a certain tiny percentage of people just get sick, and scientific instrumentation and practices can only be so accurate. That 23% was taken from a much much larger population than the 77%. You have a tiny population with a larger percentage and a large population with a much smaller percentage.
The problems being seen aren’t just bigger with THC vapes, they’re hugely bigger. So much bigger that it is not impossible for the 23% to be statistical backscatter. They might not be. I don’t know how accurate the testing is, how often these things come up randomly, or if there is another factor to be looked at that produces a better connection than “vaping linked”.

there are a lot of pieces of missing information.
1. How many e-cigarette users are there compared to THC vape users? Also how many vape users reporting these problems compared to non vape users? These are critical numbers. If it was one-to-one the 23% number would be accurate. There are a lot more ecig users than THCvape users though. The question is how many? If the disparate was is large enough that 27% rapidly turns into less than 1%. 1% may still be statistically significant. I just don’t know. I’d like to though.

2. What actual devices and materials were used?
We’ve got some information on that but it is by no means complete. For one all ecig devices are being considered equal here but this is not the case.

3. How actually uniform are the problems? Should separate subclassifications be made? “Lung injury” is vague. Not as vague as “vaping linked” but causality is still possibly being assumed.
Some are apparently suffering lipid pneumonia symptoms, but others appear to have totally different problems.

Yes, they used a term like ‘a lot’ or something similar to describe the vitamin e content of the THC pods. I agree that this is a bit strange, but they seem to say that some people have fallen sick while vaping THC pods with a very little vitamin e.

Enough is the word. “Very little” is as bad as “a lot”

 

[KurtVD]

Don’t be so sure on that. Half of Canada is stoned and given it is legal to smoke in public, the other half is getting stoned from second hand smoke! One can have a great time walking the streets of Toronto….just bring your own munchies!

Ok, I didn’t know about Canada (that it’s legal there)

 

[bombastinator]

I'm still wondering what your solution would be had you been Legislating ..

I’d do what most states seem to be doing: wait for the actual scientific results. The problem is the groups that did act did so on preliminary results that were misinterpreted to begin with. Garbage in garbage out.

what I find quite disturbing is which groups acted when. The amount of action was not widespread, but does seem to have other factors that weigh more heavily. Domestically, action seems based primarily on tax revenue and bond holdings.
internationally it seems to be quite directed at producing maximum damage to the non BT e-cigarette industry. Very few countries declared bans, but all {a very disparate number} of them produce critical components.

 

[TrollDragon]

To my knowledge (from what I have read on the interwebs), hydrogen cyanide poisoning does not cause lipoid pneumonia as seen with the cases in the US, but attacks the nervous system shutting down vitals

All of the samples that tested positive for pesticides contained vitamin e acetate.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Ok, I didn’t know about Canada (that it’s legal there)

That’s not a maple leaf on our flag, but some stoners poor attempt at drawing a cannabis leaf

 

[TrollDragon]

Ok, I didn’t know about Canada (that it’s legal there)

It's not legal to walk down the street smoking a joint here.

 

[Eskie]

It's not legal to walk down the street smoking a joint here.

It’s not legal in NY either but doesn’t seem to stop folks.

There is no chemical identified to date that explains the chemical lung injuries being reported. The finding of Vitamin E was and still is suspicious, although the pathology of the lung injuries are not consistent with exposure. The whole Hydrogen Cyanide thing is not causing the lung injuries. Whether other byproducts of the pesticides and maybe vitamin E may be responsible it’s simply unknown.

It appears to be occurring in people using THC cartridges. Some of those people also vape nicotine as dual users. Some have not fessed up to vaping THC.

That’s the whole story. To my knowledge there is no other information released identifying the cause. For now it looks like vaping THC isn’t a good idea. There has been nothing to date to suggest the legitimate nicotine solutions we vape are an issue. I would avoid buying a cheap Juul nic cartridge off the street. Those are typically counterfeit and contains who knows what.

 

[bombastinator]

It’s not legal in NY either but doesn’t seem to stop folks.

There is no chemical identified to date that explains the chemical lung injuries being reported.

which is why I think there is more than one separate problem, and whether or not they are even necessarily all even vaping related seems implausible. This whole “everyone who ever vaped no matter what and how must all have a similar issue” thing just seems tremendously assumptive to me.

The finding of Vitamin E was and still is suspicious, although the pathology of the lung injuries are not consistent with exposure. The whole Hydrogen Cyanide thing is not causing the lung injuries. Whether other byproducts of the pesticides and maybe vitamin E may be responsible it’s simply unknown.

It appears to be occurring in people using THC cartridges. Some of those people also vape nicotine as dual users. Some have not fessed up to vaping THC.

That’s the whole story. To my knowledge there is no other information released identifying the cause. For now it looks like vaping THC isn’t a good idea. There has been nothing to date to suggest the legitimate nicotine solutions we vape are an issue. I would avoid buying a cheap Juul nic cartridge off the street. Those are typically counterfeit and contains who knows what.

 

[KurtVD]

Some have not fessed up to vaping THC.

While that’s certainly a possibility (that these people have also been vaping THC), it’s only an assumption, right? And it’s fair to assume that there’s a lot more nicotine vapers than THC vaping people out there.

 

[Eskie]

While that’s certainly a possibility (that these people have also been vaping THC), it’s only an assumption, right? And it’s fair to assume that there’s a lot more nicotine vapers than THC vaping people out there.

I have no idea of the numbers of THC users vs. Nic vapers vs. dual users of both. And yes, it is only a possibility, although the correlation appears high.

 

[Eskie]

which is why I think there is more than one separate problem, and whether or not they are even necessarily all even vaping related seems implausible. This whole “everyone who ever vaped no matter what and how must all have a similar issue” thing just seems tremendously assumptive to me.

While it is possible there are separate problems going on, the evidence to date has found vaping something seems to be the only activity or exposure the cases appear to have in common. In all cases, other medical causes to explain their illness have been essentially eliminated. There have been no reports made public of any cases of otherwise healthy young adults falling ill with an acute respiratory illness of this magnitude of unknown origin. Given the degree of attention this has received, and the dramatic presentation of the illness, I would expect reports to exist if this were not related to some inhalation injury related to a vaping product.

As to the possibility there may be more than one substance as the cause, that cannot be ruled out from what has been made public. But it seems unlikely two separate agents are causing the same types of illnesses described. Maybe if there were two different syndromes being reported then they could be attributable to different agents, but that does not appear to be the case here.

 

[jandrew]

The 77% was how many of the people who fell ill used THC pods. It doesn’t matter that there are lot more nicotine vapers, if 23% of the victims didn’t use THC pods (and don’t lie about it), but otherwise have exactly the symptoms, you can’t really conclude that THC pods is the cause of all that. There must be an explanation which explains all of the cases, not just 77%.
...

You aren't going to get 100% cases explained. Period. It almost never happens in any outbreak. Dr. Siegel (1) gives the example of 2017 Salmonella outbreak in 7 states plus one province: 19 cases overall, of which 12 (63%) reported eating pre-cut coconut pieces from a particular grocery chain. This did not stop the CDC from concluding that the cause was a bad lot of coconut pieces imported from Indonesia. Also noted was that on re-interviewing patients, at least one who claimed not to have had coconut pieces, did, in fact, have a grocery receipt that showed the purchase of said coconut pieces. So, as Dr. Siegel says, if under-reporting happens with grocery store purchased coconut pieces, one would certainly expect it when it involves illegal THC carts purchased from drug dealers on the street.

(1) The Rest of the Story: Tobacco and Alcohol News Analysis and Commentary: The CDC is Still Misleading the Public about the Cause of the Respiratory Disease Outbreak: Why?

 

[AvaOrchid]

In order to properly prognosticate, keeping up with the latest info is essential .. those unwilling to do so are not an informed Citizenry and abide by "old News" .. which, in many cases, can bolster their own agendas ..

As far as the knee jerk State reactions, people died .. what else would you have expected and what alternatives would you have considered had you been in a Legislative position .. ??

People died but from the very beginning nobody suggested that it was related to Flavors and that is the primary focus so these knee-jerk reactions are not relevant to anything that has come out. Imo reactions from Governors have a different motivation, what that is... I'm not entirely certain but usually these motivations are based on two things with politicians money and reelection with money factoring in higher because money leads to re-election or at least a higher chance. You have to appear to have done "something" whether it was based on any sort of fact is irrelevant in their opinion because the average citizen is not concerned whether or not people have the right to vape they don't care whether it's healthy or not they take a very puritanical stance on everything that they don't personally do so if it's a vice that they don't indulge in they don't care about that person's right to do it. I would expect in a perfect world for Governors to not have knee-jerk reactions based on absolutely nothing especially when said knee-jerk reactions could actually lead to more of what they're reacting to buy forcing a black market or do it yourself of uninformed people.