Pre-vet workshop thread

[jj2]

In the last sentence of the 1st paragraph, the "I" in "as far as I know" should be changed to a "we". Don't want to randomly switch into 1st person singular.

"I think it's defined as" should be "we think..." in the "biggest issues" part.

Also, "I assume there is some form of grievance process" should be "We", or the sentence eliminated. (Doesn't provide any input).

I don't know that the summary was really intended for "formal submission to j0ker". It was a summary in this thread. However, I don't have problems including it as long as everyone reviews it thoroughly. I don't want to bias anything with the summary... it was just my way of organizing what I was hearing from the group.

The 1st sentence... change it to:
"The pre-vet thread (PVT) is for people that have not turned but will turn soon."

What about the "joined in 2011" that I saw you guys talking about before? I don't think it applies (I don't remember if we threw a party for anyone that scheduled one that didn't join in 2011 ... like for low post count people) but I'm not sure.

I'm beginning to like the "Operation Yellow Bird" option more and more.... find a way to include everyone. Or maybe we can create a "Post-Vet Thread" (not abbreviated PVT tho!) so that they could party with us too if they already turned. As explained, doesn't affect the contest as the contest people choose to define it.... they can still open it up or not... as they define the contest and don't necessarily tie it to us.

Okay trying to get a grasp on what is going on. Sorry haven't really been keeping up...got a family crises going on here. Aren't you all making this more complicated?

Not done yet jj. But see a few posts above and please comment....including my proposed changes. As far as "seeing" it... it's right there on the same page my dear!

Maybe early but I would like to request that when it's known that it is a welcome thread that the classifying marks are part of the title.
Reason: Once the software makes a link to it, and I change it, it messes that up. Or at least on the other server it did.

Like I said, I'm trying to get a grasp on things so I hate to mention this because I know I'm in for a bruising. I'm just remembering the problems we were experiencing and how so many didn't like the restrictions to the contest. How some got tired of opening those Welcome Threads for people just wanting into the contest. There were also complaints by other members who posted and didn't even get a thanks.

So to remind some of what's been said, "They should come to PreVet because they want to participate." The contest should be an extra reward, not a thing to strong arm them into participating. Nor should it require that they jump through hoops to get into a contest. I was guilty of the same thing but it soon became obvious we were going at this the wrong way. Wracked my brains to make the rules sound simpler and I hate seeing you guys go through what I've been through.

Then there was the confusion over the options. No matter how I tweak, it didn't get better.
I've heard from so many that it wasn't worth the hassle or it just confused the crap out of them.

You have a golden opportunity to use the contest as advertisement for PreVet. Like jOker said, keep it simple.
I'd rather see you require that they participate in a couple parties before their join date than throwing conditions at them. After participating in the parties they are in. Just because they didn't like it, doesn't mean they should be omitted. To pick up the one's from the past, make an exception and let them do it even if they have already turned vet. It's win win situation. Members come to you because of simple way to enter a contest and you get more people to come play.

Once they say they want to participate, put your rules into effect.

I do applaud your efforts, I know that it is trying on mind. Torture came to my mind a few times. 8-o

Now off I go because I haven't even had time for breakfast.

 

[tiburonfirst]

Before I repost I have to ask (logically):

Were there any welcome threads, created in the new-vet welcome sub-forum, by another vet outside of the PVT process (or even inside for that matter) that were created after the vet turned? If so, did/do they qualify for the G.P. drawing and/or monthly contests?

This pertains to the "how it works now" part.

as far as i know there were none. we've had some self-starters after the fact who were disqualified. as to started outside of vip, i have no idea. but jj keeps an eye on opening times in general and, i'm sure, would have disqualified any not meeting the time requirement

i'm going for my nap ......

 

[tiburonfirst]

and atty, leave ''operation yellow bird'' for next year, please! atm we are concerned about pvt and nothing else. or do i have to scrounge around for some of your earlier posts???????

 

[CES]

JJ,

we've added a lot of detail but this

the contest should be an extra reward, not a thing to strong arm them into participating.

really is where we are now. We're hoping all pre-started welcome threads in 2012 will be eligible for the grand prize drawing. we're also hoping for a bonus contest for those who attend and avatar party (that's the restrictions that we're discussing). We're not planning to ask anyone to change current thread titles.

Hope that helps

 

[AttyPops]

...snip....
Like I said, I'm trying to get a grasp on things so I hate to mention this because I know I'm in for a bruising. I'm just remembering the problems we were experiencing and how so many didn't like the restrictions to the contest. How some got tired of opening those Welcome Threads for people just wanting into the contest. There were also complaints by other members who posted and didn't even get a thanks.

So to remind some of what's been said, "They should come to PreVet because they want to participate." The contest should be an extra reward, not a thing to strong arm them into participating. Nor should it require that they jump through hoops to get into a contest. I was guilty of the same thing but it soon became obvious we were going at this the wrong way. Wracked my brains to make the rules sound simpler and I hate seeing you guys go through what I've been through.

The contest restrictions are up to you and j0ker. Not us. You can make it as open as you want, regardless of what we say here. We're only commenting on our pre-vet process. You don't have to tie the contest to the pre-vet celebrations at all. This is to keep your options very open, and is intended to help you.

Then there was the confusion over the options. No matter how I tweak, it didn't get better.
I've heard from so many that it wasn't worth the hassle or it just confused the crap out of them.

I don't know what to say here. Presentation changes may help a bit. May depend on what you and j0ker decide to do going forward.

You have a golden opportunity to use the contest as advertisement for PreVet. Like jOker said, keep it simple.
I'd rather see you require that they participate in a couple parties before their join date than throwing conditions at them. After participating in the parties they are in. Just because they didn't like it, doesn't mean they should be omitted. To pick up the one's from the past, make an exception and let them do it even if they have already turned vet. It's win win situation. Members come to you because of simple way to enter a contest and you get more people to come play.

Once they say they want to participate, put your rules into effect.

I do applaud your efforts, I know that it is trying on mind. Torture came to my mind a few times. 8-o

Now off I go because I haven't even had time for breakfast.

I don't know how to reply to all that either. I guess I'm as open as anyone from the contest perspective. Pre-vet is pre-vet, not contest. As far as requiring them to participate in pre-vet parties before we'd throw one for them... interesting idea, but adds just another restriction IMO. We often collect participants, even for a short while, before and after their party anyway.

Comments are in red above. Hope you enjoy your breakfast!

 

[jj2]

Comments are in red above

{Your comment from my post. "The contest restrictions are up to you and j0ker."}

Like I said Atty, I haven't been keeping up on this. I Thought you wanted this as the Contest. So carry on and I'll touch base with jOker. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[AttyPops]

Summary so far

The pre-vet thread (PVT) is for people that have not turned ECF veteran and will turn soon. Hence "PRE-vet". It was that way before there was a contest. It's still that way. We do often post congrats messages if someone pops in after turning (like a polite "congrats to you!") but we don't schedule any parties or, as far as we know, open any PVT welcome threads for them.

That's why we're writing this up this way.... it's from a pre-vet perspective.
If you want to "open the contest to anyone turning in the current month, or whatever you define" go ahead. We cannot comment on what you do with the contest. We can comment on what we do with pre-vets and how it may relate to the contest... giving our opinions.

So, you could decide to open up the contest by using something other than a pre-vet welcome-thread. However, our pre-vet welcome threads are used for our purposes within the thread.

There are others who open their own welcome threads. Still others have threads opened by other vets. (We think.) OK. jj2 may accept those (with whatever conditions if any). We're not sure we need to comment on it much. We have, as points of discussion, considered how we could make welcome threads after the fact and/or hold an avatar party after the fact. Out of fairness to those we have already turned down in the last 5/6 months....we'd like to keep PRE-vet thread creation (by us, by request of the pre-vet) as "prior to turning" for what we do.

However that doesn't limit the contest... unless you tie it to our process exclusively. So if you want to open it up ...fine by us.

Things that created the most problems for us:
Grand Prize entry requiring pre-vet presence at a particular turning time (we think it's defined as earliest-possible-turning-time = 365 days after their join date/time at the next 25 minutes after the hour)...and it could not be rescheduled without penalty.

We've suggested that Grand Prize not be tied to avatar parties. A new end-of-year bonus drawing is added as an additional "perk" for those that attend an avatar party in the PVT. It's a small incentive to encourage participation and get people to check out the PVT. We're still clarifying that one. The Avatar Party scheduling is more open. Our understanding is that the forum won't "turn" them if they don't log in. So we use that to re-schedule the turnings with the pre-vet's help (by their not logging in until a mutually agreed upon prearranged time).

We'd like to know what the complaints are now, if any, so we can make sure we attempt to address them if they pertain to us.

how we think it works now....

1. welcome thread - (entitles the prevet to an entry in the monthly contests.) All that is needed to get a welcome thread is to ask for one or have an ecf vet start it in the new vets forum prior to turning. (In practice it has always come through PVT. )

2. avatar party- must request and be present on the PVT thread at the exact time they will turn into ecf vets (365 days after their join date/time to the minute, at the next 25 minutes past the hour...since that's when the checking process runs), times for our published list are provided by a moderator due to the pre-vet's request for participation, any deviations from the original timing or absence during the turning results in disqualification from the entry for the grand prize.


what we want
1. welcome thread - entitles the prevet to an entry in the monthly contests and the year–end grand prize drawing.This is not the only way they could enter, depending on what the contest people decide to do (out of our scope). Eligible threads are started in the new vets welcome forum prior to turning, either by us or a sponsoring vet. The welcome thread request should come through the PVT, in the form of 1 post minimum in the PVT either by the sponsoring vet or the prevet . Threads must be started prior to turning in the new vets' welcome forum and thus cannot be self-started, since they don't have access to that sub-forum until they become an ECF veteran.

2. Avatar parties: the welcome threads of those who schedule avatar parties in advance and attend them are eligible for entry into a bonus drawing at the end of the year. The party can be rescheduled from the forum default time without penalty. However, the new vet MUST be present at the time of their turning to be eligible for the bonus drawing. (mechanics not yet defined, but may require posting within a give time frame prior to and after the scheduled turning time) Also note that the welcome thread is marked ++ if they showed up within whatever time frame is decided upon.

(in practice this means that threads marked -- are now eligible for the GP drawing, assuming they were eligible for the monthly entry, however only those marked ++ are eligible for the bonus drawing. We'd like to have an amnesty, meaning that all that welcome threads started from from Jan1, 2012 posted in the contest entry thread, but marked with -- are eligible for the grand prize drawing, and all welcome threads, from Jan1, 2012 posted in the contest entry thread, marked with ++ are eligible for the bonus drawing

(if adding a bonus drawing is not an option, then a bonus entry into the GP drawing would be the second choice).

Red = I think it needs to change/be worked on/clarified/may have issues or logic conflicts.
Blue = my changes this THIS version (Blue from previous version incorporated).

 

[AttyPops]

Yes, jj. However, note that we have added a "bonus drawing" so.... it has an effect on you guys.

Also, to the PVT comments:
Just a thought: From the "what we want" section on down, we should probably avoid any mention of the monthly contest or Grand Prize drawings... since it's up to jj and j0ker. The only thing we care about is .... the bonus drawing. If they want to tie monthly drawings and/or G.P. to.... IDK, the phases of the moon, the sun spot activity, the exact mass of the Higgs-boson, whatever, it doesn't matter to us. Does it?

And I repeat though....we're in a similar "tight spot" with the bonus drawing... in that it could have complaints for people that don't qualify and still requires jj or whomever to mark stuff with ++. Although they can have much more flexible scheduling, we still have that nasty "turning timing issue" to define and work with.

Also, just to confirm, what we're all saying here is Pre-vet is Pre-vet and if they have turned already they "missed their chance" to party with us specifically in the PVT. So I need to clarify the other side of that coin...If they have not logged in for two years, and are not a vet, then come and talk to us before they turn.... what then? Scramble?

 

[whiskey]

Yes....scramble(IMO)

 

[CES]

If they have not logged in for two years, and are not a vet, then come and talk to us before they turn.... what then? Scramble?

it's only happened a few times, and what we've done is talk them through it- and getting to know them in the process. the few times we've done it has worked quite well. the people have still "turned" in 2012, which IMO is the point of the thread - not which year they joined. My thinking is if they turn in 2012 they're eligible for the 2012 contest.

Yes, a bonus contest will still require threads to be marked.

I'm really confused about this part Atty:

we should probably avoid any mention of the monthly contest or Grand Prize drawings... since it's up to jj and j0ker.

um, wasn't the point of this to get our input into how PVT and the contest could fit together? If we don't have any input into eligibility and how the two go together then we've wasted a bunch of time on this discussion.

at this point, i would like to see j0ker's feedback, on the general points of what agreed we'd like: all (pre-started) welcome threads eligible for both tiers of the contest, with an extra bonus drawing for avi partiers.

 

[whiskey]

Yes...I think its time to see now, what J0ker thinks

 

[AttyPops]

Yes, I think it defines potential overlap CES. Good point. However, their contest could be broader than PVT stuff.
That comment, CES, comes from the fact that we keep saying "they can do whatever they want with the contest, that's up to the contest people... like opening it up for the month or whatever" and then we go on to get all specific about contest stuff we said we didn't care about going forward. We've given opinions though, so they could stay I guess... as long as they know it's opinions from PVT perspective (see jj's reply above).

I don't think any of it is a waste of time. Also, I pointed it out earlier, to be fair......

This is what I was saying earlier about it's hard to comment on this stuff and leave the contest stuff out.

 

[AttyPops]

J0ker can see it right here and now. The red needs to be commented upon... at least how you define the timing "being present" for qualification of bonus drawing.

You guys put the "may need mechanics here" comments in, not me, so ....?????.....????

 

[tiburonfirst]

yup - maybe it's best to send joker a link to this last page.
as per joker, the contest and pvt are tied together, at least for the remainder of the year. we've made our choices how we want to structure it going forward.
joker seems to be inclined to add less-restrictive categories. this, imo, would have nothing to do with pvt and are out of the scope of things we looked at.
imo, such drastic changes would wreak havoc and if it were me i would leave that till 2013. at which time pvt can decide if we want to be connected to the contest or revert back to our original mode of operation.

 

[jj2]

Yes, jj. However, note that we have added a "bonus drawing" so.... it has an effect on you guys.

Also, to the PVT comments:
Just a thought: From the "what we want" section on down, we should probably avoid any mention of the monthly contest or Grand Prize drawings... since it's up to jj and j0ker. The only thing we care about is .... the bonus drawing. If they want to tie monthly drawings and/or G.P. to.... IDK, the phases of the moon, the sun spot activity, the exact mass of the Higgs-boson, whatever, it doesn't matter to us. Does it?

And I repeat though....we're in a similar "tight spot" with the bonus drawing... in that it could have complaints for people that don't qualify and still requires jj or whomever to mark stuff with ++. Although they can have much more flexible scheduling, we still have that nasty "turning timing issue" to define and work with.

Also, just to confirm, what we're all saying here is Pre-vet is Pre-vet and if they have turned already they "missed their chance" to party with us specifically in the PVT. So I need to clarify the other side of that coin...If they have not logged in for two years, and are not a vet, then come and talk to us before they turn.... what then? Scramble?

Atty since I realize what is gong on, when you get this done and about to have jOker look at it, I will take a good look at it.
All I ask is to keep the editing down in the New Welcome Threads. Example: If you know it's just for the monthly drawings, put -- at the end of the title. Saves me work and any way it might miss with the link.
That way all I have to do is the Jan. 1, 2013 threads and those not qualified (if applicable).

And sorry for any misunderstanding---I really thought you wanted the rules to be the contest when overall it needed to be simplified. I"ll have jOker help me do that.

 

[whiskey]

Excuse me.....but why should we take over and start doing the job you were doing re: contest markings???

 

[tiburonfirst]

@ jj - vapingturtle's thread needs to be marked - thank you

 

[tiburonfirst]

Atty since I realize what is gong on, when you get this done and about to have jOker look at it, I will take a good look at it.
All I ask is to keep the editing down in the New Welcome Threads. Example: If you know it's just for the monthly drawings, put -- at the end of the title. Saves me work and any way it might miss with the link.
That way all I have to do is the Jan. 1, 2013 threads and those not qualified (if applicable).

And sorry for any misunderstanding---I really thought you wanted the rules to be the contest when overall it needed to be simplified. I"ll have jOker help me do that.

thread titles can only be edited for a few minutes, not 2 days

 

[whiskey]

45 minutes to be exact per Classy, I'm not doing the markings

 

[tiburonfirst]

at this point, i would like to see j0ker's feedback, on the general points of what agreed we'd like: all (pre-started) welcome threads eligible for both tiers of the contest, with an extra bonus drawing for avi partiers.

true - and that would not alter the previous marking system in any way!