Propylene glycol inhaling?

[TropicalBob]

Nazareth, you're on the right track. The point is that smokers are very likely to have precancerous conditions in their lungs as a result of years of inhaling a chemical stew of tars and nicotine and carcinogens. The flawed cells that could go on a cancerous rampage will likely die off, unless something prevents it. One "something" seems increasingly to be nicotine. It makes no difference whether the nicotine is from smoke. Smoke has its own set of problems, apart from nicotine. But nicotine is a chemical, a drug, and like other chemicals it has consequences for health, good and bad. We don't know them very well, because science has focused on smoking until fairly recently. Now science is free to see if smokeless is healthier, for instance. It might not be if nicotine proves a demon drug. Just stay abreast of developments and, if possible, aim to become a vapor smoker, like BananaDoc. Using nothing but extract for vapor is the second safest choice you can make.

 

[Mamba]

Man, TropicalBob, the nicotine issue could be a huge thread unto itself. There is a recent study (2007) which can be found on the site you linked to which states that nicotine may accelerate arteriosclerosis and be as bad as tar but the study used two low nicotine tobacco products (Quest 3 and Eclipse). I haven't seen studies with tobacco free nicotine replacement products that replicate these findings. But if anyone else has please post them.

I've done quite a bit of reading on nicotine replacement therapy (NRT) and it is considered much safer than smoking even in at-risk patients. It is probably contraindicated in unstable coronary syndromes but I know studies have shown that in general NRT doesn't contribute substantially to acute coronary events. Now whether e-smoking correlates to the NRT studies is unknown until somebody specifically studies this route of administration of nicotine. And your point of whether the ingestion of nicotine in individuals with a smoking history increases the risk of cancer is well taken. But all the studies I've read seem to indicate that NRT doesn't significantly increase the risk of cancer.

Now e-smoking in not an NRT product and since it simulates smoking so well my guess is that it is not an incredibly effective cessation product and isn't being marketed as one. A lot of NRT studies also are counting on the fact that NRT is used for a limited time. It is also supposedly easier to quit NRT than smoking but who knows if this applies to e-smoking. But even at that the following quote is interesting:

NRT is customarily used only for a limited time, whereas cigarettes are consumed for as long as the smoker continues to smoke—and for some that is the rest of their lives! While some smokers could find it hard to stop using NRTs because of the nicotine in these products, there are two important things to remember: first, even using a NRT for a very long time is much less harmful to health than smoking for the same amount of time; second, stopping an NRT is not likely to be as hard as stopping smoking.

What follows is a list of quotes. All the sources for these quotes are linked at the bottom.

n 1994, the FAA requested the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) assemble an expert panel to examine the effects of smoking and tobacco addiction and withdrawal on pilot performance and airline safety. As part of the panel's conclusion, they found NRT to be safe, effective treatment option for pilots who smoke. Those recommendations stand to this day.

Nicotine and NRT do not cause cancer. Studies show that NRT is a safe alternative to cigarettes for smokers, and DOES NOT cause cancer or heart attacks, even for smokers who already have had heart attacks or heart disease. Nicotine is not the dangerous chemical in cigarettes. Cigarette smoke contains many harmful chemicals, and it is these, not nicotine, that are responsible for the heart attacks, cancer, and lung disease. The risks of cigarette smoking are much greater than the risks of NRT. NRT packages come with many warnings and directions that can lead a person to believe that NRT is far more risky than it actually is. It is a mistake to think that any NRT product is as dangerous as cigarettes.

Obtaining nicotine from NRT is considerably safer than doing so from cigarettes, as the patient is not exposed to any of the many harmful products of tobacco combustion.

Long term use of NRT is not thought to be associated with any serious harmful effects. Concerns over the safety of NRT in circumstances in which nicotine might be harmful—such as in pregnancy, cardiovascular disease, or in adolescents—therefore need to be considered in relation to the safety of the likely alternative, which is continued intake of nicotine from cigarettes.

More than 110 studies involving approximately 40,000 smokers have demonstrated the safety of NRT even in populations with specific health conditions, such as diabetes, high blood pressure, lung disease, and existing heart disease.

These quotes from a Mayo Clinic article are interesting:

Nicotine-induced sympathetic stimulation may result in myocardial ischemia and arrhythmia potentiation. Nicotine
causes catecholamine release and increased heart rate and blood pressure that may result in myocardial ischemia,
especially if coronary stenosis is present. Several authors have analyzed the autonomic effects of transdermal admin-
istration of nicotine in long-term smokers and found that nicotine patch therapy produced only minor disturbances
of autonomic cardiac control. The previously cited single-blind, crossover, placebo-controlled study by Lucini et al found that high-dose transdermal nicotine along with cigarette smoking had no additional adverse effects on heart rate, blood pressure, fibrinogen levels, or lipid profiles in long-term smokers. These parameters were similar between doses of transdermal nicotine ranging from to 63 mg and smoking alone. Transdermal nicotine at the 21mg dose had less immediate hemodynamic effects and little or no procoagulant effect compared with smoking. The cardiovascular effects of nicotine seem to be less pronounced in long-term smokers as a result of apparent development of tolerance.

Use of the nicotine patch was found to result in reduced exercise-induced ischemia, despite significantly higher serum nicotine levels. Smoking cessation using the nicotine patch correlated to increased time to exercise-induced electrocardiographic ischemia.

What is known about the safety of NRT? Nicotine replacement products have been researched extensively and have
been found to be safe and effective pharmacological support for tobacco dependence. A meta-analysis of 34 ran-
domized controlled trials of tobacco cessation with NRT included 28 trials that specifically excluded participants
with cardiovascular disease or risk factors. The authors concluded that there was no difference in cardiovascular complications between smokers who were using nicotine patches (n=5501) and those who received placebo patches
(n=3752). However, the number of cardiovascular events in that study was low because of the population studied. An extensive population-based, case-control study also found no association between over-the-counter nicotine patch use and an increased risk of myocardial infarction. A small group of nicotine patch users in that study continued to smoke but had no increased risk of myocardial infarction.

Here are the sources:

Nicotine Replacement Therapy Is Safe, Effective and Can Help Reverse Mental Acuity Deficits in Smokers Who Are Quitting, Including Commercial and Private Pilots

Nicotine Replacement Therapy and Cardiovascular Disease

Acute myocardial infarction soon after nicotine replacement therapy

Nicotine replacement therapy

Dispelling the Myths about Nicotine and Nicotine Replacement Therapy

This is the study mentioned in the first paragraph that used tobacco products:

Nicotine May Accelerate Atherosclerosis, May Be As Dangerous As Tar

On the flip side are individuals who claim NRT is a vast conspiracy driven by profit and that NRT is ineffective and people should be encouraged to quit cold turkey. As much as I don't like Big Pharma, and even though some of his points are undoubtedly correct, in general I think this guy is (technically speaking ) paranoid:

Is Nicotine Replacement Therapy The Smoker's Last Best Hope?

 

[TropicalBob]

Nice post! But those quotes could have been written by Big Pharmaceutical itself. They address the failed products that Big Pharma has offered smokers to date. And many smokers say they failed to quit because the level of nicotine was insufficient in those products. I have no doubt that we e-smokers take in more nicotine, by far, than anyone using patches, gums, lozenges, nasal spray, in the prescribed manner. So lack of consequence from testing Big Pharma's NRT products doesn't impress me.

I'll try to keep abreast of nicotine as friend or foe, but I'm not buying into low-dose studies for Big Pharma products. I know, personally, that I've increased my nicotine tolerance and dependence since taking up e-smoking and snus -- at the same time. I would guess I'm on the nicotine level of a three-pack-a-day cigarette smoker. And, yes, I'm far more concerned with cardiovascular and circulatory consequences than nicotine as a cancer-promoter.

Gotta add one more thing: I think eventually the FDA will put a limit on the nicotine content allowed in an e-smoking device. If it gets regulatory power over cigarettes, the first action will be a strict (reduction) limit on nicotine content. Not sure what we can look for -- but our devices won't be allowed to outperform those from regulated Big Pharma. And our devices can't serve up more nicotine than a regulated tobacco product. Level playing field, you understand.

 

[Nazareth]

Gto some possibly bad news- although I'm not sure yet- but this is the second time I've got the uncomfortable burnign sensation in lungs when inhaling the E-Vapor & developped fever- the first time it happened I thought "O.K probably just a cold or slight lung bug or somethign- no big eal" so I let a day go by, then tried inhaling it again- seemed to go away- a few days went by, then late last night the burnign started again & got a fever which has persisted all throguh the day and gets worse when inhale the E-Vapor- but oddly enough not when I inhale regular tobacco smoke. Now, I do have Asthma, and do know what lung ailments feel like, but this is quite odd as it's not affectign my breathign any liek Bronchitis or a lung cold would. I really hope it's not hte PG or somethign else that is causing htis- but I'm goign to give it a few days, and start again and see what happens- if htis does happen again- I think I'm goign ot have to quit E-Smoking as thsi fever stuff is very unpleasant- Oe thign I've noticed is that my stomach gets rumbly and upset on this stuff too- but it was never really enough to disuade me from continuing, but the fever/burning in lungs I don't care for at all- I can take soem 'lung-burn' such as Regular Ciggs provide on inhale, but htis is beyond that and quite uncomfortable- Bleh- I am quite dissappointed as I was able to get myself down to 6-7 Real Ciggs per day by substituting & had hopes of even being able to do even better with hte help of E-Smokin.

 

[jasondavis48108]

nazareth, I could be way off base but my friends who have quit smoking tell me that they had an increase in chest congestion, colds and coughing of phleghm when they quit smoking. It may be possible that this is what is going on?(maybe thats just wishful thinking) I to have had a disconcerning pain in my chest today,(bee e-smokin for a week now) but I think It my just be a chest pain (i did smoke cigarettes heavy for 15 years). Have no idea if it would go away if I smoked a real cig and have no desire to find out. I just ordered a bunch of snus and stonewall (very excited) and my goal is to cut way back on the e-smoking. Another fact that may contribute to my (and possibly your) chest pains is that tend to smoke my e-cig way more than I smoked real cigs. (Almost constantly all day) I may start treating it more like a real smoke; i.e. not smoking in the house, not using it at the computer,taking several puffs and then disassembling it and putting it away for a period of time. Hope you figure this out, and good luck

 

[karenwest1961]

Some people still get "Quitter's Flu" even when using a nicotine replacement therapy.

If the symptoms seem to go away when you don't use your e-cig, then you might be allergic to the PG. If not, then you might be suffering from Quitter's Flu. I've had a couple of boughts with it myself. But it's all good now.

 

[TropicalBob]

Nazareth, if you keep at this, you need to determine first if your reaction is indeed to e-smoking, then whether it's to propylene glycol or nicotine. To find out if it's nicotine, there's an easy test: Use "low' or "no" nicotine fluid/cartridges and see if problems disappear. Or vaporize pure extracts like those from Bickford's. If it's PG, e-smoking is likely not for you. You might try home mixes using vegetable glycerine from a health food store in combination with extracts. But your lungs may protest all of these chemicals.

I've had a bit of the coughing-up stuff problem, especially after I first quit cigarettes. Smoking temporarily paralyzes the cilia (like itty-bitty hairs) along your breathing pathways. Those cilia wave in one direction, like a wheat field in a gentle wind, carrying out crap you inhaled - routing it from your lungs to your throat, where you swallow or spit it out. Either way, you want it OUT of your lungs. You need your little hairy garbage collectors.

If the cilia ceased working altogether, your lungs couldn't get rid of the estimated one teaspoon of dust you inhale just by breathing each day. After you quit paralyzing the cilia, by quitting cigarette smoking, they go on a growth spurt. Like workers handing off sandbags, they pass up the brown or black specks of crap you see in your coughed-up yellow blobs. (Ugh, but you know what I mean). That's healthy. That's your body ridding itself of a bad substance. And that's a really good thing.

If the problem lasts more than a week, however, it's probably related to something new in your life -- e-smoking. You might need to follow Jason's example and try alternatives to staying off cigarettes while obtaining needed nicotine.

Course, you might be coming down with a cold.

 

[dnakr]

When I quit - I had a major increase of chest congestion, I thought I was coming down with a cold or getting the flu. I was coughing up phleghm so bad at night that I could barely sleep. I was so bad my coughing would wake my husband up. My chest felt like something heavy was sitting on me. During the day it wasn't as bad, but when I would start coughing it seemed to last forever. This lasted almost two weeks.

I read everything the websites say you go through when you quit smoking and since I was seeing the brown specks, I took this to be normal.

Boy was I glad when it went away...

 

[jasondavis48108]

I wonder if we could do some sort of poll to see if those who have given up cigarettes entirely for e-smoking have had the symptoms of those who quit cold turkey (except for the horrible nicotine withdrawl that is) it seems to methat if once one has switched to e-smoking completly, they had these symptoms, it would be a fairly good sign that e-smoking is quite a bit healthier than regualr smoking.

 

[dnakr]

by jasondavis48108

I wonder if we could do some sort of poll to see if those who have given up cigarettes entirely for e-smoking have had the symptoms of those who quit cold turkey (except for the horrible nicotine withdrawl that is) it seems to methat if once one has switched to e-smoking completly, they had these symptoms, it would be a fairly good sign that e-smoking is quite a bit healthier than regualr smoking.

I agree.
Within 3 days of me switching over to e-smoking only is when my symptoms started.

 

[greensurf]

I haven't taken to e-smoking very well, and it's a big disappointment for me unfortunately. The first night I might have had overdose of nicotine because it's hard to really know how much your getting, unlike a Marlboro red where you can really feel it. The amount is obscure even if you know the mg amount in each cartridge, each puff ( I've read ) is much less. But I have a high tolerance of nicotine, shouldn't have hit me like that. I puffed away at different strengths and flavors ( only about 30 or so hits, my throat became very sore and dry, even drinking water didn't help. Felt sick, and a headache as well as lungs feeling uncomfortable and not healthy. Smoking regular cigs is not a problem but the E-cig is difficult. Is it all the PG? The sore throat decreased after 2 days and my immune system finally went back up after a LOT of night sweating. ( I have a pretty high immune normally, so this was a bad and unusual shock to the system ). Yesterday I was fine, so I tried smoking the E-cig again but this time on low nic, and only about 20 puffs or so. I got a sore scratchy throat, woke up with it also. It's not a cold, that's a different sore throat - but this time I didn't get sick, but then again I smoked only 1 brand of ecig this time - not the other which was from ecig.com. ( a friend also took about 20 hits the first night and got sick to his stomach, another person with high nicotine tolerance). Anyways... If the PG is making the throat so dry and sore, it would only seem normal that it might do the same to your lungs now and then depending on how much you smoke it. The idea of drying out my lungs with fog juice turns me off of this whole experiment. But many people are smoking this non stop without problem, so I don't know what to think. More tests need to be done on heavy long term PG smokers to see what happens every time it's inhaled. I could imagine that there might be some kind of natural moisturizer that could be added to stop the dry side effects maybe? Vitamin E? Maybe the solution is as easy as that.
I'm going to try the Brickford as a last attempt before I put this thing away. And then I'll just watch and learn and hopefully the future will bring great advancement and regulation with the e-cig.

 

[Mr.Darcy]

greensurf,it sounds like you could be one of the unfortunates who dont react well to PG mate.thats a real pity.

 

[Nazareth]

the wierd thing is that there's no real congestion (I do cough up clear 'globs' but I've always doen that with hte asthma) and hte other wierd htign is that it's easier now that I've cut down regular ciggs to cough it up, but the problem that is affectign me with the e-ciggs is the burning- like a Bronchitis burnign in the lings, but it only happens when I inhale hte ecigg- I will say that I used to have to 'clear my throat' for a long time at night- but that has drasticalyl reduced since cuttign down on real ciggs. the other hting is the sweats- I just smoked the E-cigg for about an hour, didn't get much of hte burning hte burning in the lungs htis time, but the sweating started again, a full body flushed type sweating- quite annoying- and hte stomach upset started again. After I finish off this high nico cart, I'll try a No nicotine cart and see what happens.

If it's just a cold, it hsould pass, but if it's the PG, then I'm out of luck I guess.

Bob, I tried the Glycerin by mixing it with homemade tobacco juice and a spot of extract, put it in dry cart- I didn't care for the glycerin & it really bothered my stomach- worse than the PG it seemed. I've supposedly got some PG coming from Bickfords, although it seems to have been lost in transit- been two weeks now- but I'll try some withj just extract & PG see what happens

If the problem lasts more than a we...f cigarettes while obtaining needed nicotine.

I have recently started practicing fire breathign, but I doubt it's that Yeah- I'm suspecting it's the PG, but further tests will help determine if it is- will keep everyone informaed

 

[TropicalBob]

There is an estimate that propylene glycol adversely affects 10% of users. That's a lot, when you think about it. If your symptoms continue, move to an alternative nicotine source for a week and see what happens. You may never be able to inhale PG without consequence. And, with health issues, listen to YOUR BODY first and foremost. You're not a lab rat to be sacrificed at the conclusion of this experiment.

I find I prefer the glycerol, since it's naturally sweeter than PG. I've had no problems using it. But that's a matter of satisfying my super sweet tooth.

 

[bishybob]

I think it would be a good idea to start a poll with people who've experienced

Yeah since I've switched to e-smokng I've noticed a few symptoms.

My stomach is always churning and grumbling. I also have more gas. Stomach doesn't really hurt just grumbles a lot. I had both of these problems slightly before, but now there's more of it and it's more constant. Not hard to ignore or get rid of with a gax-x pill and a Rolaid. I find if I take one of each in the morning my stomach is generally fine during the day.

This has happened 2-3 times so far: At the end of the day I've had slight kidney pain. I have a history of kidney stones, but this isn't that type of pain. Again it's not bad, just there... Seems like it's related to the e-smoking.

I had a couple headaches the first day or two but those went away.

I've had no dry mouth or throat problems.

Nazareth: I haven't experienced it with smoking, but a fever is pretty common when coming off an addictive substance, or replacing one substance with a similar one. I have experienced it with other substances. Hopefully it's that and not a PG sensitivity or something else.

 

[Nazareth]

TB And, with health issues, listen to YOUR BODY first and foremost.

Ah but what fun would that be?

There is an estimate that propylene glycol adversely affects 10% of users.

Leave it to me to probably fall into the minority- I've had Acromegally (Same htign Andre the Giant had- only mine didn't cause gigantism- know what hte odds of gettign Acromegally are? 1 in 3,000,000 - Also got Mitochondrial Dysfuntion & Crohn's disease- both quite rare diseases=- not sure how rare- never looked em up- but not many peopel get them- so yeah- it wouldn't surprise me if I'm in the 10% that can't tolorate PG lol

I find I prefer the glycerol, since... a matter of satisfying my super sweet tooth.

I don't mind the sweet taste so much, but it's a 'heavier' kind of vapor & leaves a bit of after taste (after the intititial sweet taste) that I don't care for- I find it also linger in the air longer than PG- it just seems heavier to me I guess- plus it made my stomach rumble worse thasn hte PG

Bishy I have a history of kidney stones,

Ughh- I've passed two sto0nes that were abotu hte size of a fleck of dirt & lemme tell ya- I was out of my mind with pain- literally- it took 4 1/2 hours to pass & I was totally spent when it was over. I'm not sposed to drink Pepsi- or caffeine soda, but I haven't been able to give em up yet- I'm a glutton for punishment I guess.

My stomach is always churning and g...mach doesn't really hurt just grumbles a lot.

Exactly what's hapenign with me- stomach doesn't hurt- just feels liek I've eaten Pop Rocks and drank soda at same tiem sorta-

I haven't experienced it with smoki...r replacing one substance with a similar one.

I've got a lot of testign to do- the thing that worries me a bit is that these fevers go along with my Crohn's, so I gotta kinda really make sure it's not affectign that & see if it's just the PG or somethign itself that is causign hte fevers- Been smoking the E-cigg all day, was doing good, but now that it's gettign on toward bedtime, I'm feelign a bit worse again- but we'll se what happens- migth just all be coincidence & might just be a mild cold or something. I do getcolds easily, so that coudl be it as well.

 

[TropicalBob]

Nazareth, your consideration is unique. Something in e-smoking could be aggravating a problem you already have. This board is not filled with others who share your stomach problems, for instance, or the regular fever after e-smoking a day. It happens sometimes to others, but it's hard to pin down a cause-and-effect. I think you should take a complete list of e-liquid content to your doctor and ask him if he thinks any chemical in the liquid conflicts with existing mediation you take or might aggravate some existing condition. Be sure he sees the complete list -- not just PG and nicotine. There are many chemicals in there -- the complete list is on this forum.

 

[Nazareth]

yeah, ill perobABLY just test differetn things liek no or low nicotine refills, try less PG if I ever get my order from Bickfords in, & just experiment for a bit, see what happens- worse coems to worse, I'll just quit E-smokin if I'm forced to- today seems a bit better- we'll see how hte day progresses & how it affects or doesn't affect.

 

[eternal]

I had some bad reactions as well. The PG made my stomach uncomfortable, body pain, and my kidneys felt uneasy.
I didn't want to risk it so i stopped. Since i stopped i feel no more symptoms. I really love the whole e cig thing ,unfortunately my body didn't think so. I used to wake up feeling like i got hit by a truck. I hope the quality control and chemical testing improve and we can get more conclusive info because i did enjoy it for the time i used it.

TB And, with health issues, listen to YOUR BODY first and foremost.

Ah but what fun would that be?

There is an estimate that propylene glycol adversely affects 10% of users.

Leave it to me to probably fall into the minority- I've had Acromegally (Same htign Andre the Giant had- only mine didn't cause gigantism- know what hte odds of gettign Acromegally are? 1 in 3,000,000 - Also got Mitochondrial Dysfuntion & Crohn's disease- both quite rare diseases=- not sure how rare- never looked em up- but not many peopel get them- so yeah- it wouldn't surprise me if I'm in the 10% that can't tolorate PG lol

I find I prefer the glycerol, since... a matter of satisfying my super sweet tooth.

I don't mind the sweet taste so much, but it's a 'heavier' kind of vapor & leaves a bit of after taste (after the intititial sweet taste) that I don't care for- I find it also linger in the air longer than PG- it just seems heavier to me I guess- plus it made my stomach rumble worse thasn hte PG

Bishy I have a history of kidney stones,

Ughh- I've passed two sto0nes that were abotu hte size of a fleck of dirt & lemme tell ya- I was out of my mind with pain- literally- it took 4 1/2 hours to pass & I was totally spent when it was over. I'm not sposed to drink Pepsi- or caffeine soda, but I haven't been able to give em up yet- I'm a glutton for punishment I guess.

My stomach is always churning and g...mach doesn't really hurt just grumbles a lot.

Exactly what's hapenign with me- stomach doesn't hurt- just feels liek I've eaten Pop Rocks and drank soda at same tiem sorta-

I haven't experienced it with smoki...r replacing one substance with a similar one.

I've got a lot of testign to do- the thing that worries me a bit is that these fevers go along with my Crohn's, so I gotta kinda really make sure it's not affectign that & see if it's just the PG or somethign itself that is causign hte fevers- Been smoking the E-cigg all day, was doing good, but now that it's gettign on toward bedtime, I'm feelign a bit worse again- but we'll se what happens- migth just all be coincidence & might just be a mild cold or something. I do getcolds easily, so that coudl be it as well.

 

[Nazareth]

Eternal- maybe if you tried making your own juice- it might help- there might be somethign in the prefilled Catridges that doesn't agree with us- the Carts have several ingredients besides PG - I've ogt some PG coming and iwll try a mix of just PG and tobacco juice- maybe a dash of flavoring but I'm goign ot be tryign a few different things-