Inhaling PG - perhaps not the great unknown after all

[Kate]

Great find Billster, here's the link - http://www.supersmokerjp.com/images/ToxicologylaboratoryTestResultsEnglishtranslatiion.pdf

I'm not sure what is being said about propylene glycol but the tests on glycerine are very promising, I'll mention this on the thread about glycerine.

 

[Kate]

This information might be of interest to some of you, it's about the hazards of propylene glycol in theatrical fogs. It says that pg might cause respiratory tract problems and eye irritation. It doesn't appear too worrying to me though, unless you're sensitive to pg I think the concentration required to cause problems would be higher than we could achieve by vaping it.

http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterat...ycol/pdfs/noreg/117-01659.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

 

[ApOsTle51]

i just found this quite extensive study into PG. bit of light reading for ya

Propylene Glycol excerpted from NTP-CERHR expert panel on the reproductive and developmental toxicity of propylene glycol - The Center For The Evaluation Of Risks To Human Reproduction (CERHR) NTP-CERHR-PG-03 May 2003

enjoy

 

[TropicalBob]

Killed this cause I was responding to an earlier post here (where a link took me).

 

[jigtg]

@prestontiger: MSDS is for handling not using.

Propylene glycol (PIM 443) contains much better info. It talks about ADI of 25 mg/kg and with e-cigs you would get 20(number of cigs)*0.1ml=2ml per day. Assuming 100% PG here. For a 75 kg person(me ADI would be 1875mg which is about 1.8ml given PG density of 1.036 g/cm³.
It is worth pointing out that you might already be receiving 1.8ml from food and other stuff per day. There is just no easy way to know. ADI recommendations do include safety factors, so I wouldn't personally be too worried about these limits exceeding.

adi "propylene glycol" - Google Search list plenty of good docs. http://www.health.gov.mt/fsc/fschome_files/afc_op_ej511_lauric_arginate_sum_en.pdf for instance talks about ADI of 0.5 mg/kg.

In practice, something like 50% of PG is exhaled so 2ml*0.5 = 1ml per day.
50% being a wild guess. 85% PG 2ml*0.5*0.85 = 0.85000ml per day and 50% PG 2ml*0.5*0.50 = 0.50000ml per day.

 

[Kate]

I was just having a look at what Wikipedia had to say about propylene glycol - Propylene glycol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia They say that "Propylene glycol is metabolized into pyruvic acid, which is a normal metabolite in the breakdown of glucose ..."

"... pyruvic acid is converted into lactic acid, but if oxygen is available it is converted to acetyl coenzyme A, which enters the Krebs cycle." - pyruvic acid: Definition from Answers.com

Lactic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Acetyl-CoA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's not much about lactic acid or acetyl CoA that caught my interest but I found this - EmphyCorp, Inc. - Pyruvate in Cancer Prevention & Treatment - pyruvic acid might help prevent and cure cancer. "Pyruvate will repair injured mitochondria to kill the tumor. Also we have discovered that pyruvate can “up-regulate” NO, which can kill viruses, infections, and tumors." [NO = Nitric Oxide]

"Alpha Keto Acids Including Pyruvate Increase Nitiric Oxide (NO) Levels Needed to Kill Viral Infections ..." - EmphyCorp, Inc. - Anti-Viral Effects of Nitric Oxide (NO)

It would be very cool indeed if it turns out that esmoking with propylene glycol can prevent or cure cancer.

 

[Kimmiegrif]

Kate, very cool. Thanks for sharing.

 

[gashin]

I was just having a look at what Wikipedia had to say about propylene glycol - Propylene glycol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia They say that "Propylene glycol is metabolized into pyruvic acid, which is a normal metabolite in the breakdown of glucose ..."

"... pyruvic acid is converted into lactic acid, but if oxygen is available it is converted to acetyl coenzyme A, which enters the Krebs cycle." - pyruvic acid: Definition from Answers.com

Lactic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Acetyl-CoA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's not much about lactic acid or acetyl CoA that caught my interest but I found this - EmphyCorp, Inc. - Pyruvate in Cancer Prevention & Treatment - pyruvic acid might help prevent and cure cancer. "Pyruvate will repair injured mitochondria to kill the tumor. Also we have discovered that pyruvate can “up-regulate” NO, which can kill viruses, infections, and tumors." [NO = Nitric Oxide]

"Alpha Keto Acids Including Pyruvate Increase Nitiric Oxide (NO) Levels Needed to Kill Viral Infections ..." - EmphyCorp, Inc. - Anti-Viral Effects of Nitric Oxide (NO)

It would be very cool indeed if it turns out that esmoking with propylene glycol can prevent or cure cancer.

I noticed the lactate acid buildup my first week (i.e. muscles felt tired) but seems to have gone away.

 

[ApOsTle51]

It would be very cool indeed if it turns out that esmoking with propylene glycol can prevent or cure cancer.

lol ...how ironic would that be ...

 

[TropicalBob]

Couple this thread with the one on "germ-killing vapor" and we might just conclude that what we're doing is not only NOT HARMFUL, but is BENEFICIAL. We are medicating with every inhalation of vapor. And to think that some in power want to ban this practice ...

 

[Kit]

all this information is allready in TB's thread A germ killing vapour!

 

[Savantster]

animals are animals- give it a rest- Animal testign has saved billions of lives of humans- a MUCH more valuable species than simple animals- Cripes- cry me a river!@ intentional meaningless animal abuse is one hting- animal testign to save the lives of a much more valuable higher form of creation is quite another. your comment shows that you know absolutely nothign abotu addiction or psychology, and therefore you are unqualified to comment one way or the other as to whether or not we are smart or otherwise- (emphasis added)

Some might disagree with you. You have no more right to life than any other living thing. You certainly have no right to cause pain and misery and disease to other living things so you can attempt to make an easier life for yourself. If you want to use a better acne cream, then test it on yourself and your kids; the rest of the planet shouldn't suffer because of Human arrogance and ignorance.

I've met a lot of humans I'd let die in the street, but I go out of my way to save spiders and other bugs in my house. Humans supposedly have free will and sentience, so when they engage in heinous behaviors, they are safely blamed; animals don't act like we do, they aren't capable of abstract thought like we are, so they can't be blamed for their "behaviors".

Besides, humans are over populating the planet as it is.. and there will be MASSIVE suffering of a LOT (billions upon billions) of humans because the unwashed masses are about as ignorant as you and don't mind breeding beyond the capacity of their environment, nor soiling their own nests (the entire planet).

90% of humans are a disgrace; thanks for exemplifying why.

 

[Savantster]

Sorry for my first post out of the shoot being a shot across the bow, but I have a distinct dislike for people that feel humans are the "end all beat all" of the planet. Facts beg to differ.

Anyway, it seems that it has been well established (after 9 pages) that PG is, in fact, harmless in terms of e-cig usage. I was going to link the OSHA bit to contradict the posting that implied it was "very toxic" from the "deodorant" page.. but that's been taken care of.

Why did it take 10 pages to get around to this being safe? I'm here trying to find valid info on the subject, and weeding through 10 pages seems silly.

 

[Austintatious]

Some might disagree with you. You have no more right to life than any other living thing. You certainly have no right to cause pain and misery and disease to other living things so you can attempt to make an easier life for yourself. If you want to use a better acne cream, then test it on yourself and your kids; the rest of the planet shouldn't suffer because of Human arrogance and ignorance.

I've met a lot of humans I'd let die in the street, but I go out of my way to save spiders and other bugs in my house. Humans supposedly have free will and sentience, so when they engage in heinous behaviors, they are safely blamed; animals don't act like we do, they aren't capable of abstract thought like we are, so they can't be blamed for their "behaviors".

Besides, humans are over populating the planet as it is.. and there will be MASSIVE suffering of a LOT (billions upon billions) of humans because the unwashed masses are about as ignorant as you and don't mind breeding beyond the capacity of their environment, nor soiling their own nests (the entire planet).

90% of humans are a disgrace; thanks for exemplifying why.

I trust you are not in that 90% are you?

 

[taz3cat]

Savantster, I am not living with bugs in my house, and hold anyone that does in suspect. I don't beleive in cruelty to anamals but I am not going to take chances with my health either. No bugs, no spiders, nor mosquitoes either in my house or on my person. By the way I kill rats, they carry dieases.

 

[RBRat3]

Hmm I think its pointless to fight over subjects as animal rights, When you go againts someones moral belifs telling another person what is right and wrong all you are doing is picking a fight. This has been going on for years "catholics & jews, democrat & replublican" over and over it never stops you will never win this fight. Theres nothing wrong with expressing an opinion or questioning it but no one has the right or place to tell someone what is right or wrong if you want answers to what is right and wrong make a poll, take a vote, ask the masses theres no need to keep dragging it on pages later in this forum. Morals are what gives one his/her own personality its what seperates you from another so keep that in mind. (I sure hope that user got banned for his rude conduct rather than his expressive view)

Now that thats all kinda cleard up, What I would like to know is when they say "Long-term effects" how does one calculate that time period 1 year, 5 years, 100 years. How long is Long-term?

 

[RBRat3]

I need to clean that question up a bit, hard to understand and i have no edit function options.

What i ment is when they say the long term effects are unknown how long would it take before they would come up with the answer "there are no long term effects", I hope that makes it alittle more understandable.

 

[ftlum]

Can any medical doctors jump in here please!? I am a bit concerned about the effects of PG. I know I'm better off without the old cigs. (Got rid of that cough thank God.) But now I have wicked cotton mouth in the morning and I didn't even have any alcohol! I would like to know exactly what happens in the body to cause this dryness. It can't be good for you. Where does the water go? Is it just eliminated through the process of uh...elimination? Gotta go to work now and will be looking forward to an answer when I get back home.

While I'm not a pulmonologist, I am an MD (with asthma, BTW. Actually, I'm not a smoker either, but why I'm here at this forum's a long story). TropicalBob's early post was correct, IMHO. Vaping folks ARE the test subjects.

You can test all you want on lab animals and write this up as "safe and effective", as is done for drug products, but long term saftey is really an unknown... as it is for all drugs that get FDA approved. That's why the FDA requires companies to do "postmarketing" saftey monitoring.

Even though drugs get approved as "safe", the numbers of patients that have been actually in the studies is limited (part of this depends on how rare the disease being treated is, for instance). The larger the number of subjects, the more confident one is... but you can miss very rare drug-related side-effects when relatively small numbers of patients are studied. For instance, let's say there's a 1 in 100,000 chance of getting liver failure with a drug. If you only studied 10,000 people, chances are you missed this (or didn't realize it was the drug that did it). When the drug is released to the general public, the number of people exposed to it now becomes enormous and rare drug-related conditions are identified.

The other thing to realize is that the studies that lead to FDA approval of a drug usually don't last too long (in an individual study, the participants may be followed only on the order of months). So again, the long term effects of a medication that's just gotten FDA approval are unknown... especially with disorders such as cancer which take a long time to develop. The same issues hold true with vaping since it's a realtively new concept. Even though certain medications referenced earlier might contain PG, we really don't know if this is the same as atomizing the stuff and inhaling it for hours on end. Also, are you getting the same amount of nicotine in the blood, or are you vaping more compared to an analog cigarette and perhaps getting more nicotine in the system? It'd be interesting to measure nicotine levels in a person who's been smoking, then replaced it with vaping.

There are a lot of unknowns, to me. That being said, my non-pulmonologist guess is that these things are better than smoking analogs. Having asthma, I'm really sensitive to cigarette smoke and e-cigs actually don't bother me.

 

[ftlum]

Maybe folks were vaping in 1962 :

www dot chestjournal dot org/content/42/3/251.abstract

 

[okielady]

(but what I dislike is excuessive PG will casue lactic acid in body thus feel weak.)
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For those who have some conserns regarding PG causing excessive Lactic Acid, I found this in an artical put out by atsdr.cdc.gov/ATSDR

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Metabolic acidosis caused by large amounts of propylene glycol in injected medications should be treated with sodium bicarbonate. In severe cases, hemodialysis is effective in correcting hyperosmolality by removing propylene glycol from the blood (Demey, Daelemans et al. 1988; Parker, Fraser et al. 2002). Ethanol therapy, as described for ethylene glycol-poisoned patients, is unnecessary for patients having propylene glycol poisoning

Propylene glycol is used in various foods, cosmetics, and pharmaceutical products.
Propylene glycol toxicity is not expected in normal environmental or occupational exposures.
Propylene glycol toxicity is metabolized to compounds that are normal constituents of the citric acid cycle.
Large doses and unusual circumstances are necessary for the development of propylene glycol toxicity.
Propylene glycol poisoning is marked initially by CNS depression and an elevated osmolal gap and, later, by an increased anion gap.
Unlike ethylene glycol, propylene glycol does not produce nephrotoxicity in humans.
Treatment for propylene glycol poisoning is supportive. It may involve correction of metabolic acidosis using sodium bicarbonate therapy and, for severe cases, hemodialysis. ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps if anyone seems to be feeling tired from vaping PG, you might try drinking a little baking soda to bring your alkalinity back up.

This conserned me because I already have problems with this with my fibromyalgia.

I have also read in cancer research, drinking baking soda makes the body alkaline thus making the body inhospitable to cancer cells.

It might be a good idea for us vapors to drink an occational baking soda cocktail.