Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[cigatron]

I got mine on Amazon from Temco, and the label says Annealed on it. I don't think there was a choice. Mac I've got a meter for working on my amps and pedals, I can check it.. I just cut a foot off and check end to end right??

Sent from my GT-P3110 using Tapatalk

Mono, measuring 12" won't tell enough. Clamp one end in vice or on the edge of a table and spool out 10ft. Pull wire tight to straighten it and place a piece of tape on wire at 10ft. Relax wire and measure res from clamp to tape. Divide by ten. Don't forget to subtract your meter lead res before dividing by 10!

cig

 

[MacTechVpr]

I got mine on Amazon from Temco, and the label says Annealed on it. I don't think there was a choice. Mac I've got a meter for working on my amps and pedals, I can check it.. I just cut a foot off and check end to end right??

Sent from my GT-P3110 using Tapatalk

Cigs right with info above but I'd be interested if you read what you got if that's all. As much as you can up to above. Keep the measurement as precise as possible. Been a while since I ordered through there. Give us a shout back. Don't forget to mention the gauge/s, vendor source, link (silly but absentminded here).

I just wanted to add that I wasn't trying to knock TEMCO's supply through eBay. It's an outstanding savings at times for many of us. But if hitting that res is critical the extra pennies is worth it. I'm sure there are quite a number of reliable vendors that source from TEMCO to repack or sell as their production.

Thx and good luck.

 

[Miss Chris]

MVS has been sold out of the v3 airflow bases for a while, so I thought I would post an FYI that they have them back in stock now:

Kanger Airflow Control 3.0 - Large

I ordered 1 thru Mt Baker Vapor during Columbus Day sale. It says it's a V2 but I received the V3. Selling for $5.99 but ECF coupon code knocks 10% off.

 

[Miss Chris]

I ordered 1 thru Mt Baker Vapor during Columbus Day sale. It says it's a V2 but I received the V3. Selling for $5.99 but ECF coupon code knocks 10% off.

Here's the link. The pic looks like it shows the V2 but mine looks like the pic from MVS

Kanger Airflow Control Valve v2 - Mt Baker Vapor - Electronic Cigarettes

 

[crg31953]

Good possible explanation for some instances of the coil being reinstalled after being set aside.

I've seen variations of as much as 1Ω or more for coils that have been static for a while and tested at wire spec.

I'm assuming you are referring to coils that are built and then sit for days prior to use.

The reason I ask is that at any one time, I can have 5 to 15 coils sitting in a pill bottle waiting to be loaded. I do torch them after the wind for that reason rather than pulse them at installation.

What is your opinion?

Vape On My Friends!

 

[MacTechVpr]

I'm assuming you are referring to coils that are built and then sit for days prior to use.

The reason I ask is that at any one time, I can have 5 to 15 coils sitting in a pill bottle waiting to be loaded. I do torch them after the wind for that reason rather than pulse them at installation.

What is your opinion?

Vape On My Friends!

Torching just preempts the optimal oxidation that's the target of adhesion. What I describe is typical of t.m.c.'s that tank removal or other handling may leave a coil not ideally sticky, imperfections in wire too. Basically they have more minute separations that need to be fused. I've said that better than half the time they fire micro first or second pulse. They're good, in the zone. The rest have these minute irregularities. These often only become evident after you've pulsed to micro and later go to use the coil whether 5 mins or five days.

The very purpose of winding to adhesion is to take advantage of electric pulsing to produce the most uniform oxidation possible.

The very product of the wind is to produce a continuous short. Some are not as perfect shorts as others.

I'd say crg pulse the coil to completion. If you're like me, if it's visually not symmetrical it's likely not going to give the best vape. Have time. Do another. Pulse them all until they make you happy. We're talkin' minutes here if you do a batch. Let nature do the job not us and the torch. She's better at it anyway.

Consider it a buffet.

Our job as vapers is to enjoy them, not solve the problems of the vaping universe. Can if you want to. But it's not all it's made out to be.



There's definitely a point of diminishing returns and increasing risks. And torching seems to be one of these.

Just sayin'.

Good luck.

 

[crg31953]

Thanks Bro!

Vape On My Friends!

 

[CMD-Ky]

Has anyone, other than me, become confused? I am going to use the coil jig, wrap 'em tight and vape 'em. If I think anymore about it, I will need to wrap my head in high resistance kanthal to keep it from exploding. To those of you who know "why", I appreciate the thought that goes into this; without the thought I would still be buying the same stuff from Kanger and being moderately satisfied. I understand a lot of things but when it comes to coils, I am just going to wear the watch and mix metaphors.

 

[rflash]

Has anyone, other than me, become confused? I am going to use the coil jig, wrap 'em tight and vape 'em. If I think anymore about it, I will need to wrap my head in high resistance kanthal to keep it from exploding. To those of you who know "why", I appreciate the thought that goes into this; without the thought I would still be buying the same stuff from Kanger and being moderately satisfied. I understand a lot of things but when it comes to coils, I am just going to wear the watch and mix metaphors.

lol To MAKE a coil you must BE the coil

 

[crg31953]

Has anyone, other than me, become confused? I am going to use the coil jig, wrap 'em tight and vape 'em. If I think anymore about it, I will need to wrap my head in high resistance kanthal to keep it from exploding. To those of you who know "why", I appreciate the thought that goes into this; without the thought I would still be buying the same stuff from Kanger and being moderately satisfied. I understand a lot of things but when it comes to coils, I am just going to wear the watch and mix metaphors.

Here is my take on the situation that you question.

There is an electrical science to build perfection. Do you have to follow it.......NO! Of the hundreds who have followed this thread, each one has developed a technique of his or her own. The technology is there to take you to a point where you know the possibility's, what you do with it is your choice and no ONE here will say your wrong.

Those with the proper background will explain to you why things happen the way they do and what you do with that knowledge is totally up to you! I imagine that there are people here who don't understand posts by cig and Mac, but they have science and education behind their theories. It gives you the tools to go as far as you want.

If you have a technique that works for you and you're happy with it, then I would suggest that you go with it. If you're not, the tools are here to achieve the goals you may desire.

I may not understand the science, but I do grasp what is trying to be explained. It's my choice whether or not to use it and no one here will condemn me for it. If I have a question as to why I have a problem, it is answered with courtesy and politeness.

So the bottom line is that you use what works best for you. If you have a problem, we will be here to help. If anyone gives you cr@p send them to me.

Good Luck CMD-Ky!

Vape On My Friends!

 

[cigatron]

Here is my take on the situation that you question.

There is an electrical science to build perfection. Do you have to follow it.......NO! Of the hundreds who have followed this thread, each one has developed a technique of his or her own. The technology is there to take you to a point where you know the possibility's, what you do with it is your choice and no ONE here will say your wrong.

Those with the proper background will explain to you why things happen the way they do and what you do with that knowledge is totally up to you! I imagine that there are people here who don't understand posts by cig and Mac, but they have science and education behind their theories. It gives you the tools to go as far as you want.

If you have a technique that works for you and you're happy with it, then I would suggest that you go with it. If you're not, the tools are here to achieve the goals you may desire.

I may not understand the science, but I do grasp what is trying to be explained. It's my choice whether or not to use it and no one here will condemn me for it. If I have a question as to why I have a problem, it is answered with courtesy and politeness.

So the bottom line is that you use what works best for you. If you have a problem, we will be here to help. If anyone gives you cr@p send them to me.

Good Luck CMD-Ky!

Vape On My Friends!

Thanks crg, appreciate your take on the tech discussions Mac and I share in. Even though it may seem at times that we dislike each other I can attest that we don't. Even though I think he sometimes lives in a land of mistical magical vaping where the laws of physics and material sciences take on new meaning! Lol. Lol. Lol

Seriously though I feel the subject matter we discuss is relevant to the OPs objectives even if slightly more comprehensive. No fear here of the moderator shutting down the thread as long as we play nice.

So sure folks, glean what you can, google the terms, or as sxd says "vape it like you $tole it". Whatever works for you. It's all good.

cig

 

[clnire]

I was a computer tech for many years. Not board level, I mostly was an on site board swapper. I do not understand all the technical details but I try to absorb all I can. I can build a decent coil by hand but I am eager to try other methods to make them better. I love to tinker and learn and I am more of a do and and learn than read and learn. So although some of the tech talk is over my head I keep reading and trying different methods. And funny thing is my coils just keep getting better.

Thanks to everyone who contributes (and perhaps seems to disagree sometimes) because it all contributes to my understanding.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Has anyone, other than me, become confused? I am going to use the coil jig, wrap 'em tight and vape 'em. If I think anymore about it, I will need to wrap my head in high resistance kanthal to keep it from exploding. To those of you who know "why", I appreciate the thought that goes into this; without the thought I would still be buying the same stuff from Kanger and being moderately satisfied. I understand a lot of things but when it comes to coils, I am just going to wear the watch and mix metaphors.

Here, here cmd. I tighten that head wrap every night.



Make it sticky and you're good.

Good luck.

 

[chanelvaps]

I can def relate. Sometimes I want a break from whatever and come to computer to read the forum. If I am pressed for time I do not come to this thread because I KNOW there will be information that is not always easy to understand.
I appreciate the ever so knowledgeable minds at work in here but I am the first to say a lot of it is hard to understand for the layman (or woman)
I do not want to bypass it so I force myself to try to digest it because I think it is an honor to be able to be spoon feed this information and I might not ever get the chance again. I am learning a lot of stuff I never knew and YES my coils are much better!

 

[cigatron]

Short answer: Only if contaminated with flavored juice. Many of you may have noticed that the winds of old gunky coils removed from tanks or drippers seem to be stuck together. Gently pulling on the legs reveals that they are indeed stuck together. Firmly adhered at that. But lesser so if the coil was recently dryburned. Raised my curiosity so I started some experiments a while ago.

Ran tests for adhesion on a dozen coils on a dripper where coils could be removed for testing without bending them. Some were pulsed only to achieving micro, some fired longer to achieve redish/yellow temps and some fired to bright yellow. Removed the coils after cooling and gently pulled on the legs. No aparent adhesion, sticking or fusing. All the winds(turns) just uniformly separated with similar effort for all 12 coils. (All 30awg).

Ran another test identical to the first but vaped them with unflavored 50/50 pg/vg 6mg nic base. Some for 1ml, some for 2ml etc and finally the last coil for 30ml. Same results as in the first test. No apparent adhesion, sticking or fusing together of the winds.

BUT WHY? It's a logical conclusion to believe they would. We're raising the coil temp (firing red/yellow) at or near the melting point (fusing temp) of the aluminum in the wire. And what about all those alumina crystals that are forming while the wires are touching? Surely they would grow together (adhere). Right? It's logical.

So I wonder. Could they still be adhering but at such a small level that I couldn't detect it? A possible conclusion without the scientific knowledge. But alas folks, it's not happening. The science prevents it from occuring.

For the answer why, and it will be slightly techie, see part 2.

cig

 

[cigatron]

Lets start by defining a few words in laymans terms.

Adhesion: bonding together of unlike substances (molecules in our case)

Fused: or fusing: joining together of like substances in the molten or near molten state.

Alumina: Aluminum oxide: the non-conductive and heat resistance coating formed on resistance wire when we heat our coils.

Covalent bond: the molecular alignment of atoms within alumina which hold it together as a material.

Diffusion: the phenomena by which alumina is formed. 2 aluminum atoms on/near the surface of the wire react with 3 oxygen ions in the air (or juice) when heated and a new compound is formed eg. Al2O3 ( alumina).

So lets start with alumina development. Aluminum is highly reactive. That is, it's much more willing to give up its atoms (diffuse them) than the chromium or iron in our wire. Alumina formation is parabolic. Having very fast formation at first then slowing as the aluminum atoms become less available at the surface of the wire. Alumina formation only occurs where oxygen ions and aluminum atoms are present. That is, primarily at the surface of the wire where the aluminum atoms are readily available. Alumina has very high adhesion to the surface of the wire where it is formed. Alumina which was previously formed is pushed outward by new alumina formation at the alumina/wire surface interface forming new covalent bonding.

So when we fire our new microcoils and alumina is formed between adjacent ( neighboring) winds two things happen very very quickly. A super high strength dialectric (high resistance) layer is formed and the coils are physically pushed apart disallowing the "fusing" together of the metals in the wire. And because the alumina is formed primarily at the alumina/wire surface interface where reactive aluminum atoms are most abundant, but very little at the outermost surfaces of the alumina crystals, you will not likely see any significant covalent bonding between the alumina of adjacent winds.

Sintering however is a common method for bonding covalent materials like alumina. Only problem is before we could reach the sintering temp for alumina (2000°f plus) our coils would likely be destroyed from excessive heat.

So imho neither adhesion of adjacent winds or fusing together of adjacent winds is happening. If anyone still has doubts and would like to see part 3 just say so. I'd love to talk on grain boundary migration, electron/proton relationships and atomic orbit radii!!!
Just kidding.........or aaaam I? Lol

Hope this gives those of you with inquiring minds something to google!

cig

 

[chanelvaps]

Very interesting Cig. When I remove a much used coil it seems that the outer part of the coil is less intact than the center part. Not something that happens when I remove it but it is like that BEFORE I remove it.

Lets start by defining a few words in laymans terms.

Adhesion: bonding together of unlike substances (molecules in our case)

Fused: or fusing: joining together of like substances in the molten or near molten state.

Alumina: Aluminum oxide: the non-conductive and heat resistance coating formed on resistance wire when we heat our coils.

Covalent bond: the molecular alignment of atoms within alumina which hold it together as a material.

Diffusion: the phenomena by which alumina is formed. 2 aluminum atoms on/near the surface of the wire react with 3 oxygen ions in the air (or juice) when heated and a new compound is formed eg. Al2O3 ( alumina).

So lets start with alumina development. Aluminum is highly reactive. That is, it's much more willing to give up its atoms (diffuse them) than the chromium or iron in our wire. Alumina formation is parabolic. Having very fast formation at first then slowing as the aluminum atoms become less available at the surface of the wire. Alumina formation only occurs where oxygen ions and aluminum atoms are present. That is, primarily at the surface of the wire where the aluminum atoms are readily available. Alumina has very high adhesion to the surface of the wire where it is formed. Alumina which was previously formed is pushed outward by new alumina formation at the alumina/wire surface interface forming new covalent bonding.

So when we fire our new microcoils and alumina is formed between adjacent ( neighboring) winds two things happen very very quickly. A super high strength dialectric (high resistance) layer is formed and the coils are physically pushed apart disallowing the "fusing" together of the metals in the wire. And because the alumina is formed primarily at the alumina/wire surface interface where reactive aluminum atoms are most abundant, but very little at the outermost surfaces of the alumina crystals, you will not likely see any significant covalent bonding between the alumina of adjacent winds.

Sintering however is a common method for bonding covalent materials like alumina. Only problem is before we could reach the sintering temp for alumina (2000°f plus) our coils would likely be destroyed from excessive heat.

So imho neither adhesion or fusing is happening. If anyone still has doubts and would like to see part 3 just say so. I'd love to talk on grain boundary migration, electron/proton relationships and atomic orbit radii!!!
Just kidding.........or aaaam I? Lol

Hope this gives those of you with inquiring minds something to google!

cig

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Lets start by defining a few words in laymans terms.

Adhesion: bonding together of unlike substances (molecules in our case)

Fused: or fusing: joining together of like substances in the molten or near molten state.

Alumina: Aluminum oxide: the non-conductive and heat resistance coating formed on resistance wire when we heat our coils.

Covalent bond: the molecular alignment of atoms within alumina which hold it together as a material.

Diffusion: the phenomena by which alumina is formed. 2 aluminum atoms on/near the surface of the wire react with 3 oxygen ions in the air (or juice) when heated and a new compound is formed eg. Al2O3 ( alumina).

So lets start with alumina development. Aluminum is highly reactive. That is, it's much more willing to give up its atoms (diffuse them) than the chromium or iron in our wire. Alumina formation is parabolic. Having very fast formation at first then slowing as the aluminum atoms become less available at the surface of the wire. Alumina formation only occurs where oxygen ions and aluminum atoms are present. That is, primarily at the surface of the wire where the aluminum atoms are readily available. Alumina has very high adhesion to the surface of the wire where it is formed. Alumina which was previously formed is pushed outward by new alumina formation at the alumina/wire surface interface forming new covalent bonding.

So when we fire our new microcoils and alumina is formed between adjacent ( neighboring) winds two things happen very very quickly. A super high strength dialectric (high resistance) layer is formed and the coils are physically pushed apart disallowing the "fusing" together of the metals in the wire. And because the alumina is formed primarily at the alumina/wire surface interface where reactive aluminum atoms are most abundant, but very little at the outermost surfaces of the alumina crystals, you will not likely see any significant covalent bonding between the alumina of adjacent winds.

Sintering however is a common method for bonding covalent materials like alumina. Only problem is before we could reach the sintering temp for alumina (2000°f plus) our coils would likely be destroyed from excessive heat.

So imho neither adhesion or fusing is happening. If anyone still has doubts and would like to see part 3 just say so. I'd love to talk on grain boundary migration, electron/proton relationships and atomic orbit radii!!!
Just kidding.........or aaaam I? Lol

Hope this gives those of you with inquiring minds something to google!

cig

No adhesion? Crazy talk. Tell that to the Alumina. Of course, adhesion is taking place.

 

[cigatron]

No adhesion? Crazy talk. Tell that to the Alumina. Of course, adhesion is taking place.

Hi Bill, good hear from you. Been a while.

If adhesion of alumina is occuring (helping to hold one wind affixed to another) then how are you detecting it?

cig

 

[cigatron]

Very interesting Cig. When I remove a much used coil it seems that the outer part of the coil is less intact than the center part. Not something that happens when I remove it but it is like that BEFORE I remove it.

Chanel, a couple of things can cause that. Twisting off of the leads after coil set instead of clipping them off. Also failing to ensure that the legs enter the grommet at the points that make them exit the coil at a perfect 90° angle to the coil axis.

The wire gets soft when heated and things can move around if all is not just right.

cig