Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[MacTechVpr]

Good post Mac. You may want to reconsider this statement however:

"The longer the section of wire the harder you must spool as the strain you're applying is distributed over the entire length. The shorter that lead the less you must pull."


It may seem that way because as your hands/fingers move further apart you lose leverage however the stress (tension) required to achieve compressive tension (adhesion as you call it) is identical no matter what length the wire is. Physics bro!

cig

You have said it…so you have to compensate. I agree the (applied) strain must be constant. And the longer that the lead is made, the harder it is to do so. I described it earlier being akin to trying to juggle with your hands at your hips. Both ends must be anchored and the closer together they are the easier it is to maintain a constant strain. Hope, that's clearer.

I use the edge of the spool in a manner of a fulcrum to minutely compound the force being applied. It's an axis of rotation at that point on the spool edge which allows for adjustment of both tension and bias angle to the bit. Many I've taught just intuitively get that you can use the shank or bit like a fishing pole to add or slightly release tension by its angle. Or that by changing the point of pivot of the shank or .... of the vise you can vary the angle to the wind, releasing or adding tension to the bias angle (off axis or perpendicular). All this becomes useful and necessary as the lay of the wire on the spool may vary.

(The absolute worst is badly wound coarse wire. I'm struggling through that right now and it's constant adjustment. This is when a mechanized winder comes in handy but I don't use one in the field.)

Good luck.

 

[cigatron]

You have said it…so you have to compensate. I use the edge of the spool in a manner of a fulcrum to minutely compound the force being applied. It's an axis of rotation at that point on the spool edge which allows for adjustment of both tension and bias angle to the bit. Many I've taught just intuitively get that you can use the shank or bit like a fishing pole to add or slightly release tension by its angle. Or that by changing the point of pivot of the shank or .... of the vise you can vary the angle to the wind, releasing or adding tension to the bias angle (off axis or perpendicular). All this becomes useful and necessary as the lay of the wire on the spool may vary.

(The absolute worst is badly wound coarse wire. I'm struggling through that right now and it's constant adjustment. This is when a mechanized winder comes in handy but I don't use one in the field.)

Good luck.

You have really developed a great technique to overcome the forces required to achieve proper tensioned coils when using screwdrivers or pin vises. Very inginuitive thinking Mac.

cig

 

[crg31953]

I'm still trying to find the d..n grassy knoll!

So, I went back and tried the RBA 2mm ceramic and I'm sorry to say that it failed.
I used a flavor wick and I couldn't keep it wet enough, dry hits at 10 to 15 watts.

I am going to order some from SnG before I surrender. I honestly believe the wick was possibly over kilned.?.?.?. The shell is way to dense to wick a 50/50 juice.

I am not blaming Nextel, just the 2ft. I purchased.

Mac you'll be getting a PM soon!

Vape On Friends!

 

[MacTechVpr]

I'm still trying to find the d..n grassy knoll!

So, I went back and tried the RBA 2mm ceramic and I'm sorry to say that it failed.
I used a flavor wick and I couldn't keep it wet enough, dry hits at 10 to 15 watts.

I am going to order some from SnG before I surrender. I honestly believe the wick was possibly over kilned.?.?.?. The shell is way to dense to wick a 50/50 juice.

I am not blaming Nextel, just the 2ft. I purchased.

Mac you'll be getting a PM soon!

Vape On Friends!

Funny sh!!t C. Welcome back.

It's practically impossible to get a dry ceramic wick. Even in a dripper you have to hit it repeatedly, aggressively to dry it out. You have a feed issue I surmise. You can however dry it out by wetting it with water. Then evaporation happens swiftly.

Have they all suddenly forgotten how to kiln this material?

 

[chanelvaps]

Bill I guess you are right. What I should have said is they leak LESS!

Bernoulli would disagree with the NEVER LEAKING part, as would I.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Bill I guess you are right. What I should have said is they leak LESS!

Darn it, I think I lost you again chanel. Hope not. But give me credit I'm persistent.



Good luck chanel.

 

[cigatron]

I'm still trying to find the d..n grassy knoll!

So, I went back and tried the RBA 2mm ceramic and I'm sorry to say that it failed.
I used a flavor wick and I couldn't keep it wet enough, dry hits at 10 to 15 watts.

I am going to order some from SnG before I surrender. I honestly believe the wick was possibly over kilned.?.?.?. The shell is way to dense to wick a 50/50 juice.

I am not blaming Nextel, just the 2ft. I purchased.

Mac you'll be getting a PM soon!

Vape On Friends!

Crg, so you've tried it in a kanger with no luck? Well actually anything upwards of 10watts is pretty good. I was unable to reach 10watts with my 2ft. section of rxw. Have you tested it in a dripper or genny yet? I'm still waiting for a coil change in my dripper to try it.

cig

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Bill I guess you are right. What I should have said is they leak LESS!

Few devices today leak like the devices of just a couple of years ago. The Bernoulli principal is as important as any issue you will read about in vaping on this thread, or any other thread, as it is fundamental to how our devices work. However, what I don't understand is that since it is such an important aspect of not only the Protank, but every tank, why more is not written about it. Seems like if we discuss anything other than tensioned micro coils, the prima donna's won't even acknowledge it, as if fluid dynamics is not at least equally, if not more important, to a good vape, as the heating element. I know what you meant and what you intended, but I never pass up a chance to recommend State O'Flux's marvelous treatment of the subject.

 

[chanelvaps]

I had to Google "The Bernoulli Principal" to see exactly what you are talking about. Not that reading what Wikipedia had to say made it any more clear but I get what you are saying...somewhat...could never explain it to someone else and hope I don't ever have to

Few devices today leak like the devices of just a couple of years ago. The Bernoulli principal is as important as any issue you will read about in vaping on this thread, or any other thread, as it is fundamental to how our devices work. However, what I don't understand is that since it is such an important aspect of not only the Protank, but every tank, why more is not written about it. Seems like if we discuss anything other than tensioned micro coils, the prima donna's won't even acknowledge it, as if fluid dynamics is not at least equally, if not more important, to a good vape, as the heating element. I know what you meant and what you intended, but I never pass up a chance to recommend State O'Flux's marvelous treatment of the subject.

 

[cigatron]

Few devices today leak like the devices of just a couple of years ago. The Bernoulli principal is as important as any issue you will read about in vaping on this thread, or any other thread, as it is fundamental to how our devices work. However, what I don't understand is that since it is such an important aspect of not only the Protank, but every tank, why more is not written about it. Seems like if we discuss anything other than tensioned micro coils, the prima donna's won't even acknowledge it, as if fluid dynamics is not at least equally, if not more important, to a good vape, as the heating element. I know what you meant and what you intended, but I never pass up a chance to recommend State O'Flux's marvelous treatment of the subject.

Well yeah Bill, the Bernoulli principle is real. As air or fluid travels from a larger orifice through a smaller orifice it's speed increases and thus its pressure decreases. Its a fundamental of energy exchange. Works great in carburetors allowing for the venturi effect.

But what about inside our kangers where the air travels from a smaller orifice (pos pin hole) to a larger orifice (assembly cup)?The lowest pressure the device experiences in the airway is in the pos pin hole, airtube and drip tip; not in the assembly cup where we need it the most for juice flow. So the Bernoulli effect is limiting juice flow from the tank during a draw in that sense. Thank goodness the Bernoulli effect applies to the entire device as well and it is as you say an essential element to the creation of low enough pressure to overcome the low air pressure in the tank and force the device to flow juice.
Speaking of which, the low air pressure in the tank and the wicking density both control leaking during vaping or at rest.


cig

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Well yeah Bill, the Bernoulli principle is real. As air or fluid travels from a larger orifice through a smaller orifice it's speed increases and thus its pressure decreases. Its a fundamental of energy exchange. Works great in carburetors allowing for the venturi effect.

But what about inside our kangers where the air travels from a smaller orifice (pos pin hole) to a larger orifice (assembly cup)?The lowest pressure the device experiences in the airway is in the pos pin hole, airtube and drip tip; not in the assembly cup where we need it the most for juice flow. So the Bernoulli effect is limiting juice flow from the tank during a draw in that sense. Thank goodness the Bernoulli effect applies to the entire device as well and it is as you say an essential element to the creation of low enough pressure to overcome the low air pressure in the tank and force the device to flow juice.
Speaking of which, the low air pressure in the tank and the wicking density both control leaking during vaping or at rest.


cig

I know Cig. You are missing something. Did you read State O'Flux treatise on the subject? He's an engineer, a friend, and has written about it on ECF to some length. Long before you got here, the Veterans talked about this all the time. Doesn't surprise me that you might not have read about it yet. Sounds like a great project though. Good luck!

 

[crg31953]

Crg, so you've tried it in a kanger with no luck? Well actually anything upwards of 10watts is pretty good. I was unable to reach 10watts with my 2ft. section of rxw. Have you tested it in a dripper or genny yet? I'm still waiting for a coil change in my dripper to try it.

cig

You are absolutely right, I have not had any luck at all in a Kanger with the 2mm (slim) I purchased from RBA. Bad batch! Poor kilning! I can't honestly give you an answer.

My current sweet spot with KGD is 10watts, so I didn't go much below that with ceramic, 8.5 watts was low enough for me. At the high end, if you see no change at 15watts, going to 20 isn't going to make a huge difference. We are talking 2mm here, so what is 20watts going to achieve? My opinion only!

If you can't wick in a Kanger, at least with the batch I purchased, I don't believe this batch would work in a dripper. Both rely in it's wicking ability. If it doesn't saturate in a Kanger it surely won't saturate in a dripper, vacuum or not.

Regarding a genny style (wicking from bottom to top), I did actually do some wicking tests on my batch of 2mm. This again was a no go on the 2mm. My testing and opinions that I've heard suggest the same. I suspended a piece of 2mm in a bottle of 50/50 blend for more than a half hour and found that it didn't wick more than 1/16 above the liquid level. So if your looking to wick from a tank up to a coil, the batch that I had would not cut it in the least.

Please, for those of you considering ceramic wick (Nextel) this is my experience with only the two feet I purchased! They may be different at another time or from another vendor. My next test will be a purchase from SnG. I will let you know then, I am not in any way condemning Nextel, everyone can have QC issues!

My tests on the 3mm are non-conclusive at this time, I haven't been able to give it a fair chance, so I won't say anything until I have.

Once again friends, these are my opinions on a single 2ft purchase that I made!! Try it and please share your experience's. They are always welcome here, and I definitely don't know everything!!

Vape On Friends!

PS: I know Mac!!!!! This is just with my batch, I do not condemn Nextel!! Mine is not working like it should!

 

[cigatron]

I know Cig. You are missing something. Did you read State O'Flux treatise on the subject? He's an engineer, a friend, and has written about it on ECF to some length. Long before you got here, the Veterans talked about this all the time. Doesn't surprise me that you might not have read about it yet. Sounds like a great project though. Good luck!

Yeah Bill, I read his blogs as soon as you posted the link here. Good info and accurate on the elements he spoke to.

Thanks for that, always good to get reassurance.

cig

 

[crg31953]

Well fella's I can't promise you perfection. But I can give you the best tools I know how to get there.

First on wire let me say there are quite a few good vape vendor's out there that handle Kanthal resistance wire. However, few have and I know of none presently that sell it on 7mm spools except for TEMCO. I count them as a vape company because they are a major service to the community and Sandvik's (the maker) rep routinely makes presentations at vape shows. I recommend them because of this and the very important fact that they're the only ones that sell the product on a rigid spool. This is an essential tool for tension winding. Other vendors are either unaware of the increasing number of users winding with tension or ignore us.

Here's the Kanthal product page and you may find 29AWG in as small a batch as 25 ft. for $2.72 on a proper non-collapsing spool (rather than spools for jewelry winding or some such bobbin). Save the spools when empty. They're great for splits on large buys or for spooling up small quantities acquired elsewhere. Don't think TEMCO has an MOQ and freight is the straight applicable 1st Class PP. They ship reasonably fast, within a day or so.

Once you've achieved assembling a t.m.c. expect a marked smooth coolness reflecting the increased effectiveness in heat transfer. You can always adjust temperature later to the warmer or cooler by increasing or decreasing turns, bit diameter or both. But uniform oxidation mostly cures the phenomenon of heat loss caused by gaps in oxidation which makes standard winds unpredictable and so ensuring a more complete transfer of energy to the wick. You won't be wasting power cooking your juice rather than vaping it so less of the inclination of your Protank to leak and gurgle as well.

These days I'm winding with a pin vise rather than the screwdriver in the above pic last Fall. I'm also resting the spool more directly on a surface and rotating my wrist so that the thumb pushes away from the coil rather than straighter down as above. I'm using much thicker wire I might add. So there's a slightly longer distance from the spool to the bit but not much. It's only about 1.5-2" is all. The longer the section of wire the harder you must spool as the strain you're applying is distributed over the entire length. The shorter that lead the less you must pull.

If you run into a problem in the wind hail us here. But basically, start with a consistent lightly taught wind the first few turns then gradually step up the tension. It's all in the distance from the spool to the bit. Keep slightly increasing that strain every turn and you will soon, within a very few wraps, see the point at which the turns will not release when you ease off. That is the point of adhesion. It will probably take you a few winds to find that spot consistently. Then it will become intuitively Memorex. Even if you end up winding pretzels for a living you'll always have it in your repertoire to fall back on when you need a good vape bad. And you'll be glad to have it.

Wish you luck guys.



p.s. Not to overlook or endorse but Kidney Puncher who is of great support to rebuilders did start early this year to sell Kanthal on rigid spools, to their credit. Kudos and thanks KP. Hope you get the XS silica back.

There's that da.n pry-driver again Mac! Time for a new one!!!

Vape On Friends!

 

[cigatron]

You are absolutely right, I have not had any luck at all in a Kanger with the 2mm (slim) I purchased from RBA. Bad batch! Poor kilning! I can't honestly give you an answer.

My current sweet spot with KGD is 10watts, so I didn't go much below that with ceramic, 8.5 watts was low enough for me. At the high end, if you see no change at 15watts, going to 20 isn't going to make a huge difference. We are talking 2mm here, so what is 20watts going to achieve? My opinion only!

If you can't wick in a Kanger, at least with the batch I purchased, I don't believe this batch would work in a dripper. Both rely in it's wicking ability. If it doesn't saturate in a Kanger it surely won't saturate in a dripper, vacuum or not.

Regarding a genny style (wicking from bottom to top), I did actually do some wicking tests on my batch of 2mm. This again was a no go on the 2mm. My testing and opinions that I've heard suggest the same. I suspended a piece of 2mm in a bottle of 50/50 blend for more than a half hour and found that it didn't wick more than 1/16 above the liquid level. So if your looking to wick from a tank up to a coil, the batch that I had would not cut it in the least.

Please, for those of you considering ceramic wick (Nextel) this is my experience with only the two feet I purchased! They may be different at another time or from another vendor. My next test will be a purchase from SnG. I will let you know then, I am not in any way condemning Nextel, everyone can have QC issues!

My tests on the 3mm are non-conclusive at this time, I haven't been able to give it a fair chance, so I won't say anything until I have.

Once again friends, these are my opinions on a single 2ft purchase that I made!! Try it and please share your experience's. They are always welcome here, and I definitely don't know everything!!

Vape On Friends!

PS: I know Mac!!!!! This is just with my batch, I do not condemn Nextel!! Mine is not working like it should!

Yeah, I'm not condemning rxw slim either Crg. Maybe we got pieces from the same batch. I received mine May 21, 2014. When did you receive yours? Have you measured it's outer diameter? Mine averages about .060"

Also going to soak test in 50/50 juice as you did. I know from Macs experience that rxw doesn't come to fruition until break in but a soak test seems like a good way to compare our samples.

Thanks Crg

cig

 

[MacTechVpr]

Yeah, I'm not condemning rxw slim either Crg. Maybe we got pieces from the same batch. I received mine May 21, 2014. When did you receive yours? Have you measured it's outer diameter? Mine averages about .060"

Also going to soak test in 50/50 juice as you did. I know from Macs experience that rxw doesn't come to fruition until break in but a soak test seems like a good way to compare our samples.

Thanks Crg

cig

The soak won't do much in water, VG or PG. And that diameter is somewhat compressed. The nominal raw diameter of Nextel 1/16" i.d. (slim, XC-132) is ~2.3mm o.d. and internal should be about 1/16". Kiln times and method can reduce this substantially. I posted on this recently looking back through my notes. Don't have time tonight. Overall Ø that falls substantially below 1.67 and coupled with a sliver thin weave have been overly kilned in my opinion and perhaps manipulated to try to expand the o.d. Such will not perform and breaking them in is a bear, if it happens at all.

Maybe one would want to ask a producer why that is?

The tip off is flexibility. If the braid is stiff, as one might encounter in some types of men's shoe strings, the processing did not go well.

I remember one of the worst mistakes I ever made with Nextel very early on was to boil it…I think, based on a recommendation I read here on ECF. The extended hot boil just ended up turning it into useless cardboard. It got skinny too (after drying). And it was a very fine long section of 132 from the defunct BTV (about the finest I've seen).

Just sayin'.



LA VIDA TE DA SORPRESAS SORPRESAS TE DA LA VIDA, ¡AY DIOS!

 

[cigatron]

The soak won't do much in water, VG or PG. And that diameter is somewhat compressed. The nominal raw diameter of Nextel 1/16" i.d. (slim, XC-132) is ~2.3mm o.d. and internal should be about 1/16". Kiln times and method can reduce this substantially. I posted on this recently looking back through my notes. Don't have time tonight. Overall Ø that falls substantially below 1.67 and coupled with a sliver thin weave have been overly kilned in my opinion and perhaps manipulated to try to expand the o.d. Such will not perform and breaking them in is a bear, if it happens at all.

Maybe one would want to ask a producer why that is?

The tip off is flexibility. If the braid is stiff, as one might encounter in some types of men's shoe strings, the processing did not go well.

I remember one of the worst mistakes I ever made with Nextel very early on was to boil it…I think, based on a recommendation I read here on ECF. The extended hot boil just ended up turning it into useless cardboard. It got skinny too (after drying). And it was a very fine long section of 132 from the defunct BTV (about the finest I've seen).

Just sayin'.



LA VIDA TE DA SORPRESAS SORPRESAS TE DA LA VIDA, ¡AY DIOS!

Mac, Crg, sent an email to Jeremy at RBA supply describing the restricted flow issues I'm having with the slim product I received. Offered to send it back to him for eval. Hopefully there's a positive response. We'll see.

cig

 

[cocacola31173]

I have a question. I have just started thinking about rebuilding protank coils. I am familiar with building coils on my kayfun .

But how many wraps of 32 guage kanthal on a 1/16 bit would I need to get about 1.7 to 1.8 ohms?

Thanks!

 

[MacTechVpr]

I have a question. I have just started thinking about rebuilding protank coils. I am familiar with building coils on my kayfun .

But how many wraps of 32 guage kanthal on a 1/16 bit would I need to get about 1.7 to 1.8 ohms?

Thanks!

Hi cc, mornin' and welcome. You really want more coil contact surface (wick coverage) with 32 AWG or it's a hot and inefficient vape with more than a third of the energy being released via the leads. You'd want something like this tensioned microcoil result from steam-engine.org...

32AWG, 18/7 1/16" 1.5875mm i.d., t.m.c. = 2.245Ω

On a variable PV you should be able to up the power level to find the temperature that you like.

This will fire fast with good warmth. However, 32AWG is fiddly. Not as sturdy and you need to build a hi res to get more than just a little vapor. About the middle ground is 1.8Ω as you suggest but you'll get a far better result with 29AWG for this target and sturdier cool as well.

Try to build a tensioned micro asap cc, you'll get more consistent and satisfying results. Play around with the base numbers above to find your best vape. Put as many turns in the wind as you can to enjoy both flavor and vapor; as, the more contact surface you have, the more efficient the transfer of current as heat to the wick.

That basically is going to depend on how much room you have to play with. Width and length are important in a Kay or a KPT. Second is the resistance target you want to achieve. So size and resistance.

The more turns you can introduce the more efficient the build is in electrical terms.

For the Protank for example you'd like to put 12-turns in there but you're limited if you go thick gauge by shorts and 32 reduces your coverage area (reduced coil length) so one would rather go thicker. Think about this, in three dimensions, the physical size of these winds.

The same principle applies to the Kay. You want to put as much dimensional length as you can into the space. That is, taking both the turns and the diameter into consideration.

That's where the tables I published and a tool like steam-engine.com are invaluable. One to set the goal post, the other to validate that the spec's are what's needed.

I hope this is helpful cc and saves you oodles of time as you analyze what your device needs. 'Cause after all that's the question we're really trying to answer.

Good luck.

 

[crg31953]

Yeah, I'm not condemning rxw slim either Crg. Maybe we got pieces from the same batch. I received mine May 21, 2014. When did you receive yours? Have you measured it's outer diameter? Mine averages about .060"

Also going to soak test in 50/50 juice as you did. I know from Macs experience that rxw doesn't come to fruition until break in but a soak test seems like a good way to compare our samples.

Thanks Crg

cig

Hey cig,

My slim and my 3mm were both purchased in October? I'm not sure how much they kiln at a time, if it's a large amount.....we could be from the same batch, don't know for sure.

My RBA slim measures at approx. .064 O.D., our touch may be slightly different so I'm guessing we are looking at the same dimensions.

Doing a clean cut on the slim and looking at the end with a magnifying glass, the hollow core is equal to if not slightly larger than the walls combined. To round numbers, if we have a .060 O.D. and at least a .030 hollow core, we are only looking at a very dense .015 thickness wall. IMHO .015 doesn't allow much for saturation, it has become way to dense to absorb properly.

I have put a drop of juice on the outside of my slim and it will just sit there, 5 minutes later it soaks in. 15 thousandths' isn't much for a supply line, x twice the wall thickness we are looking at 30 thou. worth of wicking. I have never tried a 1/32 wick before, something is definitely wrong here!!

My findings only, and my opinions only!

Vape On Friends!