Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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crg31953

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I have a question. I have just started thinking about rebuilding protank coils. I am familiar with building coils on my kayfun .

But how many wraps of 32 guage kanthal on a 1/16 bit would I need to get about 1.7 to 1.8 ohms?

Thanks!

Hey cc,

You have come to absolutely the best place for Pro Tank rebuilds! Mac has given you honest answers as to what works best for these great devices.

As MacT stated and when finances allow, please invest in 30 gauge at a minimum and 29 gauge optimal to get the most out of your Pro Tank. The more coverage you have over the wick, the better the flavor and vapor. Most of us here are not cloud chasers IMHO, flavor first clouds second.

I am still using my original PT2's and love them! I tend to base all of my other devices off of them, if they don't produce equal flavor I don't use them. Simple as that!

My current builds use 30 gauge (my last purchase was 500ft), I build on a .073 dia. drill bit t.m.c. of course and do a 8/7 wrap. This puts me at approx. 1.8 ohms and I use KGD for wick (although I am experimenting with Nextel), at 10 watts this is my sweet spot, yours may be different depending on your tastes.

There are a lot of people here that will help you in any way they can so don't be afraid to ask questions, we are all friends here!!!

I wish you luck my friend! :)

Vape On Friends!
 

cigatron

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Hey cig,

My slim and my 3mm were both purchased in October? I'm not sure how much they kiln at a time, if it's a large amount.....we could be from the same batch, don't know for sure.

My RBA slim measures at approx. .064 O.D., our touch may be slightly different so I'm guessing we are looking at the same dimensions.

Doing a clean cut on the slim and looking at the end with a magnifying glass, the hollow core is equal to if not slightly larger than the walls combined. To round numbers, if we have a .060 O.D. and at least a .030 hollow core, we are only looking at a very dense .015 thickness wall. IMHO .015 doesn't allow much for saturation, it has become way to dense to absorb properly.

I have put a drop of juice on the outside of my slim and it will just sit there, 5 minutes later it soaks in. 15 thousandths' isn't much for a supply line, x twice the wall thickness we are looking at 30 thou. worth of wicking. I have never tried a 1/32 wick before, something is definitely wrong here!!

My findings only, and my opinions only!

Vape On Friends!

Crg, we have the same stuff! Remeasured a 1ft. long piece with 20x magnification and the OD ranges from .057-.061(it's not perfectly round). Wall thickness is dead nuts on .015.

Appearance is silvery like fish scales under bright lighting. Is yours?

Remeasured a used piece and OD is .061-.063 roundish. It didn't swell hardly at all. Not even enough to fill a .063" coil.

Placed a 2 inch long piece in 1-1/2 inches of 50/50 unflavored nic base dyed red with food coloring. 15 min later the juice had barely left the surface. Maybe 1/8". The piece of kgd I had in with it soaked all the way to the tip.

Thanks for help comparing Crg,

:)cig
 

cigatron

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Hey cig,

My slim and my 3mm were both purchased in October? I'm not sure how much they kiln at a time, if it's a large amount.....we could be from the same batch, don't know for sure.

My RBA slim measures at approx. .064 O.D., our touch may be slightly different so I'm guessing we are looking at the same dimensions.

Doing a clean cut on the slim and looking at the end with a magnifying glass, the hollow core is equal to if not slightly larger than the walls combined. To round numbers, if we have a .060 O.D. and at least a .030 hollow core, we are only looking at a very dense .015 thickness wall. IMHO .015 doesn't allow much for saturation, it has become way to dense to absorb properly.

I have put a drop of juice on the outside of my slim and it will just sit there, 5 minutes later it soaks in. 15 thousandths' isn't much for a supply line, x twice the wall thickness we are looking at 30 thou. worth of wicking. I have never tried a 1/32 wick before, something is definitely wrong here!!

My findings only, and my opinions only!

Vape On Friends!


Crg, we have the same stuff! Remeasured a 1ft. long piece with 20x magnification and the OD ranges from .057-.061(it's not perfectly round). Wall thickness is dead nuts on .015.

Appearance is silvery like fish scales under bright lighting. Is yours?

Remeasured a used piece and OD is .061-.063 roundish. It didn't swell hardly at all. Not even enough to fill a .063" coil.

Placed a 2 inch long piece in 1-1/2 inches of 50/50 unflavored nic base dyed red with food coloring. 15 min later the juice had barely left the surface. Maybe 1/8". The piece of kgd I had in with it soaked all the way to the tip.

Thanks for help comparing Crg,

cig
 

MacTechVpr

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Mac, just watched a video of a women making coils with a wireless drill, my question is, is it a tension Coil?

It looked so easy!

They may be coiling for jewelry where this technique is common.

A tensioned contact microcoil is an element created with uniformly balanced strain resulting in adhesion, or the most proximate turn-to-turn contact possible. This is what perfects the microcoil in practical terms.

It's certainly possible to apply motorized tension though. What's extremely difficult to accomplish is consistency. Even for automated equipment. In industry there is specialized equipment and monitoring for strain. Where the calibration is critical it can be quite expensive. Human tension winding makes it possible for us to achieve levels approaching very high precision because of the accuracy of our own on board super computers. And to be honest all the hardware is way far more fiddly than it's worth when you can get those results by hand in seconds.


313893d1394460029-protank-cotton-rebuild-way-i-do-img_0535a.jpg



Without the consistency of tensioned contact you have an imperfect coil that will go hot in spots and cold in others. For those that haven't seen better, what looks like a micro may seem like heaven. But it won't perform much differently than what they're already winding and purchasing.

I'm looking at all these new jigs and tools and feel bad for the folks buying them. It'll be more months or perhaps years for them before they realize that their vape can be improved. Do those that sell this stuff care? What do you think?

You know I really don't have to spend too much time making the case. It's so darn cumbersome to break out all the gear for most of us that it's just not an issue. I'd rather see folks go ahead and try it. There will certainly be few that resort to it routinely. For most of us, it's too much work for the return. But by all means try a pin vise. Most I'm certain continue using one if they're going to wind at all when they discover the difference brought by this kind of accuracy and repeatability.

I'm still here confidently contributing because I know for a fact most of us will see the plain and obvious truth. I've witnessed it countless times. And it's gratifying to me to see that kind of satisfaction in people. That in great measure is my reward.

The ones who stick with it are the ones who actually take the time to try to understand what's being said here. This is not a different kind of winding it's a method that results in the application of a different aspect of science to the solution. Motorization not necessary, it's a natural process you can do handily on vacation, at work, the boat or a camping trip...

Bottom line, It's simply easy, and it works.

Good luck dan.

:)
 

cigatron

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Mac, just watched a video of a women making coils with a wireless drill, my question is, is it a tension Coil?

It looked so easy!

Hi Dan, tensioned coils can be created using different methods but all should be based on the same principle. That is, imparting enough stress on the wire to bring it to a state of compressive strain(referred to as adhesion by some). Compressive strain is what makes a spring snap back to original shape when released. Like a slinky; remember those?

When the tension (stress) appied during winding is even enough, and strong enough, the wire appears to adhere to the winding mandrel. The outcome will be a tensioned coil that is not only diametrically consistant but one that wants to stay in a compressive state; winds touching. You don't want to use any more tension than necessary to achieve this outcome though. Doing so will stretch the wire, thinning it, and cause problems with symmetry and resistance irregularities.

I've successfully used pin vises, drills, the gizmo, vice grips and various other methods to create tensioned microcoils. My all time favorite is the DIY "Cigamajig". See my blog for info.

:)cig
 

Danrogers

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Thanks Mac and Cigatron for your input, I will most likely use a pin vise to make my t.m.c but when I am comfortable with that method I think I will try the drill just as an experiment to compare. Yes the women was making coils for jewelery but the coils looks on camera at least to be good, at least to my uneducated eye.
 

Danrogers

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Hey Cig, do you know if there is such a thing as a 1.75mm drill bit? I know it am asking a lot of questions I just want to make sure I have all the info. Christmas is almost here and like most am really busy, my plan is to buy everything in the new year and start building. I have basically changed my approach since finding this forum, tension is the way to go, but I am only on page 60 and more reading is still required...otherwise I would be making coils with 32 instead of 29g and still using tweezers and a torch. The guys on the forum like yourself and Mac have already taught me so much, it's almost like going back to school.

At this point this is my goal: 29g kanthal, 1/16 or 1.75mm drill bit, cotton wicking for now for a t.m.c. ( 1.8 - 1.9 ohms)

Thanks again it is appreciated
 
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cigatron

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Hey Cig, do you know if there is such a thing as a 1.75mm drill bit? I know it am asking a lot of questions I just want to make sure I have all the info. Christmas is almost here and like most am really busy, my plan is to buy everything in the new year and start building. I have basically changed my approach since finding this forum, tension is the way to go, but I am only on page 60 and more reading is still required...otherwise I would be making coils with 32 instead of 29g and still using tweezers and a torch. The guys on the forum like yourself and Mac have already taught me so much, it's almost like going back to school.

At this point this is my goal: 29g kanthal, 1/16 or 1.75mm drill bit, cotton wicking for now for a t.m.c. ( 1.8 - 1.9 ohms)

Thanks again it is appreciated

Yes 1.75mm is .069". .070" bits are available on ebay for about a buck a piece. .070 coils will work great for your kanger heads. Better than 1/16" because they allow for more wicking to fill up the wick slot in the head to reduce the potential for leaks. But even that size can leak without a flavor wick placed on top or by using the "wick tuck" method (page 135 & 136 of this thread) Sooooo

I moved up one size to 5/64". Available at Walmart or any hardware store. No flavor wick required. No wick tuck required. buuuuuut.....requires you to mod the head by enlarging the wick slot with the drillbit. Easy really. Takes 5 seconds.

My go to kanger single coils these days are 29 or 30awg, 9/8 wrap, 5/64", tmc, kgd wicked, for clean juice. Still use tensioned micro-spaced coils ( coils almost touching) for dirty juices like NETs.

Targeting a specific res is important for our builds within reason but anything between 1.8-2.2 ohms will perform great with twist style vv batts. What kind of batts are you planning on running?

Please ask all the questions you like Dan. Someone here will have an answer for you. We're all happy to help and glad you have found us!

:)cig
 
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cigatron

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Cigatron, just took a look at your jig, I like it, easy to make, can use the tension method, and the 1,2,31. 1,2,3,2 for each wrap is great!!! For myself I have some difficulty seeing such small things and not having to count the number of coils is a HUGE boon.


Thanks Dan, appreciate your having a look at it. My eyes are bad too! Another benificial feature is how both leads come off the coil at 90° degrees to the coil axis. With pin vises and the like the starter lead always comes off parallel to the coil. This requires you to bend it to 90° or unwind a few wraps to produce a usable coil. Don't care for that at all. The cigamajig does put a 90° kink in the wire about 3/8" from the coil but is easy to straighten without inducing unwanted stress into the winds. 3/8" is also far enough away from the coil for PTs and most RBAs that it doesn't interfere with functionality or aesthetics.

But wait! I must give credit to Mac. His introduction to the vaping world of tension winding directly from the spool and turning the tool, not the wire, were the driving forces behind the innovation.

Thanks Mac!

:)cig
 
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Danrogers

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Thanks again Cig for the timely reply, I am not the handiest guy around but I think I might be able to construct your jig. I also agree that Mac's contribution has been invaluable to many like myself who are just beginners, but he doesn't do it alone, you and many others also do more than your share and thanks for that.

The batteries I use are the basic evod (on the road) because they fit into any pocket, at home the Vision Spinner 2. I run the spinner mostly at 3.8 volts.
 

cigatron

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Thanks again Cig for the timely reply, I am not the handiest guy around but I think I might be able to construct your jig. I also agree that Mac's contribution has been invaluable to many like myself who are just beginners, but he doesn't do it alone, you and many others also do more than your share and thanks for that.

The batteries I use are the basic evod (on the road) because they fit into any pocket, at home the Vision Spinner 2. I run the spinner mostly at 3.8 volts.


Right, all regulated to 3.8v. To achieve optimal vaping temps for those batts 1.8-1.9 ohms build is good. They will work nicely, providing at least 1-1/2 times as much vapor as the factory coils if wicked with KoGenDo cotton. In fact if wicked with kgd cotton you may not recognize your juice! The flavor should be outstanding! On your Spinner I'd keep upping the voltage setting to see how far you can push it without burny hits. You'll know when you hit the magic voltage when the flavor pops. Should be somewhere around 4.1-4.2v. To really fire up these kanger builds though you need a battery with a little more wattage output to realize all the benefits. I started with the same style batts as you Dan so I'm with ya bro!

For a pocketable vv/vw batt I went with the Innokin VV3. 11watts and not much longer than your Evods. I run my Mini PT2 without the drip tip for that lowpro look.

:)cig
 
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Danrogers

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Hey Cig, you were right 4.2v and the flavor popped! Just watched a video and SuperX raps a t.m.c. with a Gizmo Jig, so easy even I could do it.

I have a couple of questions, after the coil has been placed and the insulator and positive pin are back on, do you pulse and squeeze it with tweezers? I thought it wasn't a good idea to pulse fire your Kanger tanks because the insulator might burn, just askin...

The only tank I have owned is the Protank 2 Mini, I like it a lot, never have had any issues. You have much more experienced with gear , what do you think of the PTM2?

edited: SuperX says he is going to do a vid of your jig in action, can't wait. Wish I was handier, I usually buy rather than build, oh well...
 
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cigatron

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Hey Cig, you were right 4.2v and the flavor popped! Just watched a video and SuperX raps a t.m.c. with a Gizmo Jig, so easy even I could do it.

I have a couple of questions, after the coil has been placed and the insulator and positive pin are back on, do you pulse and squeeze it with tweezers? I thought it wasn't a good idea to pulse fire your Kanger tanks because the insulator might burn, just askin...

The only tank I have owned is the Protank 2 Mini, I like it a lot, never have had any issues. You have much more experienced with gear , what do you think of the PTM2?

edited: SuperX says he is going to do a vid of your jig in action, can't wait. Wish I was handier, I usually buy rather than build, oh well...

Dan, I'm always a supporter of "whatever works for you". Talents and tastes differ from one to another and that's what makes us "us". The gizmo works. I'm a "run whatcha brung" kinda guy though; probably because both of my folks grew up dirt poor and instilled in me the virtue "why buy what you can build? And "necessity is the mother of invention". Probably why I hold 3 US Patents. If I was going to buy a winder it would be a pin vise. They are useful for more than one purpose; like drilling out the air holes in your MPT2 base.

I never squeeze coils. Never have to when wound on the cigamajig. The winds are held in compression so well that nothing is required after install (during pulsing) except raking the coil to help it fire center-out. Pulse...rake. pulse...rake. pulse.....rake. Short pulses just until something glows. Could be a hot leg first, could be part of the coil. Doesn't matter. Just fire it until something starts glowing, let off the fire button and gently rake the top of the coil with a screwdriver, tip of needlenose pliers or whatever. All you're trying to accomplish is to let oxygen get in there to help speed up the oxidation. Two or three times is all it usually all it takes for it to fire center-out.

I dryburn my kanger too. Heating the coil to cherry red to burn off gunk before wick changes. With today's silicone insulators you may see a little heat tanning but not like older urethane ones. Still need to limit the dryburn time to only what is necessary.

MiniPT2's are great little tanks for MouthToLung hitters in their stock configuration but can easily be modded to lung hitting by drilling out the airholes in the base.

I also hope RXD posts a vid on the Cigamajig. It would make my day!

Good luck and post pics of your build!!!

:)cig
 

Danrogers

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Cig, if I buy the pin vise it will be to drill the air holes not wind on, your jig is superior in my mind because 1,2,3,1 (don't see well close) and I think the grip will be easier for me to apply tension on, the pin vise is a little small for my hands I think.

I have read so much I cannot believe I missed racking, in the vid I watched SuperX runs a needle through his coil but I wasn't sure you could do that on a mini, thanks so much I now understand why he was doing that, rake top of the coil, I would never have thought of that.:)

You are the man!
 
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clnire

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This may be old news to many, but I am going to mention it. Last night I was cleaning/rewicking coils and could not thread the wick for the life of me. Perhaps it is the cold dry air (only in winter in Florida) but I could not get the darn wick in the coil. Finally, in frustration I got out some pg and put a drop on my finger tip. Twisted the end of the wick and bingo! Slid right in there! I was so excited I removed the silicone wicks from 2 Iclear 16s I have (I so prefer Kanger bottom coils but these came with an Itaste) and rewicked them with cotton. Man what a difference in flavor. Don't know why I never read this tip before but I now have a small bottle of pg in my kit
 
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Danrogers

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Thanks, loved your video on the Gizmo, you made it look so easy.

Has anyone else used the KangerTech Mini Aerotank Base on their Protank 2 Mini, I would interested to hear how it performed. Wondering if it might improve the Mini's vape?

I have ordered all the gear for rebuilding my Kanger heads and will start building in the new yr. I would normally be a little apprehensive about something like this but I'm not, I am excited and cannot wait to experience what the vape will taste like from a tensioned coil with cotton.
 
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