Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[cigatron]

Hey folks, just how many of ya get a Mini yet. Or are ya already doin the Sub?

What's the skinny?

Good luck.

Picked up a Mini Subtank today. Unlike the subtank, the mini subtank doesn't lose airflow when configured in rba mode. As I suspected looking at the pics on kanger's website it does not require an airtube change to alternate between occ and rba modes as the sub does. Haven't tried the occ coils and likely never will due to inferior juice transfer technology compared to today's rtas.

Airflow on the mini sub is outstanding. When wide open it's about equal to an Atlantis set at its next to highest airflow setting. The base can be removed without draining the tank to service the rba or change occ wick heads.

The build deck is adequately sized for coils up to 3mm and has an innovated wire capturing system. Wire gets trapped under the screw heads which are tightly bordered on each side by metal protrusions. Once the wire is placed under the screw it cannot migrate out during tightening. Sweet. Coils must be wound so the legs are facing the opposite direction from one another and parallel. Easy peasy. Coil height can easily be altered by lifting or depressing an inserted mandrel without disrupting to coil geometry. Big bonus. Definitely the best rta build deck I have seen.

Must say I'm happily vaping at 25w with a light-medium draw effort but with an occasional dryish hit. Was in a hurry so I just lobbed kgd wicking into the factory installed .8 ohm spaced coil and vaped away. It has been laying horizontal for hours and no signs of leaking, flooding or gurgling.

I'll spend some time cracking the code on it over the next week and report back but right now vapor and flavor production are excellent and loving the 22mm form factor. I can hear my spool of 32awg calling....ciiiiig...twiiiiist me.......ciiiiig....twiiiiiiist me.


Ok, an update. Mounted up a 32awg, (27 twists/in), 8/7, 3/32" (2.38mm) 2.1 ohm, tensioned contact coil for the mini sub. Flavor is outstanding and vapor production is thick and juicy. Max power is only 20w chaining with 2-3 second pulls though. Tried wicking several different ways with same results. May be the capillary calculations for the juice channels are a touch off resulting in occasional dryish hits when chaining. Could be those calculations offer a lower juice level at the wicking deck and is a touch too low for sustained high power performance. Don't know, but with a few primer puffs raising power levels to 30w for two or three pulls is no problem, so it's not an airflow problem. Could be kanger's theory was this would help with flooding or leaking; guessing. That said, the largest airflow adjustment is rendered useless imo; not enough juice to suport it. At any rate it's annoying and not something I'm particularly happy with but with power level set to 18-20w I have confidence that I'll never get a dry hit vaping like a sane person.

Yeah, I know, I'm picky....but what the heck....this thing is supposed to be kanger's answer to the Atlantis? Guess I'll try the occ coils tomorrow just for giggles.

 

[brookj1986]

I just ordered a mini sub tank. I want to get the gf off of the 22mm carto tank.

 

[cigatron]

I just ordered a mini sub tank. I want to get the gf off of the 22mm carto tank.

If you figure out how to wick it for higher than 20w chaining do tell.

 

[brookj1986]

If you figure out how to wick it for higher than 20w chaining do tell.

My gf only uses a vv v3, she'll barely push 12 w. But I'll test it out.

 

[cigatron]

My gf only uses a vv v3, she'll barely push 12 w. But I'll test it out.

Brook, the mini works good at 11w. It's impossible to flood or overheat it there but not good for m2l hitting....too much airflow. Flavor seems best with lowest airflow setting at 11w. It really shines at 18w on the middle airflow setting though.....maybe it's time to upgrade the gf to a small box mod?

 

[MacTechVpr]

Brook, the mini works good at 11w. It's impossible to flood or overheat it there but not good for m2l hitting....too much airflow. Flavor seems best with lowest airflow setting at 11w. It really shines at 18w on the middle airflow setting though.....maybe it's time to upgrade the gf to a small box mod?

Whatcha talkin' 'bout cig?

Mines vapin' good at 30 half open (Xpro, CANA, SPVS).

(With your 1-sec tugs!)

Way less airier than the Subbie!

 

[brookj1986]

Brook, the mini works good at 11w. It's impossible to flood or overheat it there but not good for m2l hitting....too much airflow. Flavor seems best with lowest airflow setting at 11w. It really shines at 18w on the middle airflow setting though.....maybe it's time to upgrade the gf to a small box mod?

Been trying to convince her. May try an istick to convince her.

 

[cigatron]

Been trying to convince her. May try an istick to convince her.

An Istick 30 or 50w hopefully? The 20w has 510 probs. Stripping out threading. Just say'n

 

[MacTechVpr]

Updated a pic for ya cig. Now runnin' the Mini on the CANA 17.5W. Things off at least .125Ω in the read. Just a quick pocket fix for tanks but it powers pretty good out to 50w and reading .2Ω. I don't think it's doin any reg down there but it fires. The subbies run fine on it. In fact it's perfect in size for 'em. Too bad for Fasttech that the Smok's are way better, any of 'em. Still a nice little beast for a knock-off. Didn't hear whether EVOD finally (admitted) licensed any of them.

Anyway the OCC is an interesting concoction and a very airy dry vape on JC. So it was surprising to see some flavor detail in the sweeter high end with the Mini, right from the first fill. The wide open coil doesn't seem to diffuse vapor as severely as the much tighter packed duals in the standard coil assembly. The thicker wire seems a bit more forgiving for its asymmetry and will likely be a more stable ground. So performance should hold out towards the high side of that 4-7 window common to eccentric coils. And for many with lighter juices perhaps weeks. I've extended the stock OCC to about 10 days before saturation and diminished returns with prudent intermittent use of VG to purge the wick. As I've said they made some smart moves. But don't expect any miracles. The geometry is going to make running synthetics extremely difficult. There are a lot of RBA tanks out there and no doubt more coming with the proliferation of reg power alternatives. This needed to be good.

I'll go as far as to say this is the very best mass produced consumer clearomizer...and I hesitate to call it that anymore, so...consumer rebuildable tank I've tried so far because of the variability of airflow I'm seeing. It brings an unprecedented variability to the table for coiling alternatives.

I also picked up on how flavor productive it was on low power side. And that is a great attribute for building market share among new vapers and customer retention as well. Like I said, some small and large moves, good forward thinking. They're living up to the rep they've made and taken it a notch further.

I'm kind of pleased at this direction (Kanger don't look here) because I think despite the KGD a good number of users are going to run into that 4-7 day utility window on the eccentric wind. In the short term that's good return for Kanger and B&M's but it makes straightforward rebuilding the OCC far more attractive to beginners than ever before.

You know I applaud Kanger's guts here because I believe that's going to satisfy their customers. They in turn will exhibit the brand loyalty and desire to risk cold hard cash on further purchases. And that is going to drive something that's going to bring more money to the register than a few extra coils or margin…referrals, multiples.

Precisely as they're seeing here.

Good luck all.

 

[brookj1986]

An Istick 30 or 50w hopefully? The 20w has 510 probs. Stripping out threading. Just say'n

I'll probably get a 30 watt for her. Though I may go 50 just so I can steal it.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Ok, an update. Mounted up a 32awg, (27 twists/in), 8/7, 3/32" (2.38mm) 2.1 ohm, tensioned contact coil for the mini sub. Flavor is outstanding and vapor production is thick and juicy. Max power is only 20w chaining with 2-3 second pulls though. Tried wicking several different ways with same results. May be the capillary calculations for the juice channels are a touch off resulting in occasional dryish hits when chaining. Could be those calculations offer a lower juice level at the wicking deck and is a touch too low for sustained high power performance. Don't know, but with a few primer puffs raising power levels to 30w for two or three pulls is no problem, so it's not an airflow problem. Could be kanger's theory was this would help with flooding or leaking; guessing. That said, the largest airflow adjustment is rendered useless imo; not enough juice to suport it. At any rate it's annoying and not something I'm particularly happy with but with power level set to 18-20w I have confidence that I'll never get a dry hit vaping like a sane person.

Yeah, I know, I'm picky....but what the heck....this thing is supposed to be kanger's answer to the Atlantis? Guess I'll try the occ coils tomorrow just for giggles.

Well that was my impression too if I'm reading you right that the geometry favors a lower juice flow (despite the capacity for greater wicking). Hmmm, interesting proposition. It's a diffusion platform, not necessarily a flavor giant. That's why the Mini's a bit of a surprise. I haven't gotten the raw flavor output out of the Subtank that KGD is capable of. But the night's young cig, and the possibilities abound.



Good luck.

 

[cigatron]

Well that was my impression too if I'm reading you right that the geometry favors a lower juice flow (despite the capacity for greater wicking). Hmmm, interesting proposition. It's a diffusion platform, not necessarily a flavor giant. That's why the Mini's a bit of a surprise. I haven't gotten the raw flavor output out of the Subtank that KGD is capable of. But the night's young cig, and the possibilities abound.



Good luck.

Really? I think my rba is defective, and I'm not alone. More than a few peeps are getting the same results. Dry hitting above 18w in rba mode. The juice is not making it up to wick unless you draw really hard so some bubbles will rise and releave some low pressure in the tank.. Doesn't matter what wicking medium or wicking style used. That said, when the wick is wet the flavor is superb, just as good as my lemo adjusted to identical airflow and wattage.go figure.

Some peeps say no probs at all running at 20w, one says no probs at 27.5w. Either they are fibbing or kanger's design is marginal and greatly effected by small variances in machining tolerances. Take your pick.

 

[brookj1986]

Random thought -- could the wire gauge/build be affecting the dry hits. I know technically triple twist 32 gauge should hover somewhere around the diameter of 27-28 gauge; double twist around 29 gauge or so, but could that be the root? That thinner gauge wire will heat up purty darn quickly, even when twisted. Maybe heats up too quickly for the wicking to keep up?

I'm just spit-ballin' -- I've no scientific evidence nor a very good understanding of the science behind how these clearos actually work. Just throwin' something out there. Please correct me as needed.

 

[cigatron]

Random thought -- could the wire gauge/build be affecting the dry hits. I know technically triple twist 32 gauge should hover somewhere around the diameter of 27-28 gauge; double twist around 29 gauge or so, but could that be the root? That thinner gauge wire will heat up purty darn quickly, even when twisted. Maybe heats up too quickly for the wicking to keep up?

I'm just spit-ballin' -- I've no scientific evidence nor a very good understanding of the science behind how these clearos actually work. Just throwin' something out there. Please correct me as needed.

Good thought and true thinner gauge wire will heat faster. 20w is still 20w though, regardless of the wire gauge, right? Regardless I tried 26,28, and twisted 32. Also tried kgd and cc rayon with light, medium and heavy densities. No go.

Removed the chimney cap and put juice in the bottom where the wick could pick it up, put it back together and it vapes great until it runs out of juice. Not wicking, not coil. You just can't wick juice that's not there.

FWIW, I use the same twisted 32 at 20w in my itty bitty Joyetech Egrib RBA and it wicks great. No dryhits even with light draw effort. Hey....talk about a setup you can buy for the gf and steal later!....lol

I hope you have better luck with your rba . Apparently it works for some and not for others, even with similar builds.

Thanks

 

[brookj1986]

Good thought and true thinner gauge wire will heat faster. 20w is still 20w though, regardless of the wire gauge, right? Regardless I tried 26,28, and twisted 32. Also tried kgd and cc rayon with light, medium and heavy densities. No go.

Removed the chimney cap and put juice in the bottom where the wick could pick it up, put it back together and it vapes great until it runs out of juice. Not wicking, not coil. You just can't wick juice that's not there.

I hope you have better luck with your rba . Apparently it works for some and not for others, even with similar builds.

Thanks

Just was throwing it out there. 20 watts is 20 watts, but was just thinking the speed with which it hearts up may have an effect.

That said, your tests prove otherwise. Hoping it's not the case for the gf, though she likely won't be going higher than 14 or 15 watts

 

[MacTechVpr]

Not detecting any.of the dry hits you fella's mention. Did walk around and have three moderate vapers sample the Mini at 12-25W and all agree a very, dry diffuse vape at all air flow settings. But no dry hits.

Noticed no distinct restrictions of flow in general terms. Neither have I experienced this on the Subtank over 10 days but for few brief instances which resolved quickly (and may have been due to tank position). So I don't know if I can see your low pressure proposition applies here cig.

Note here both Subtank bases are outstanding and much drier than predecessors. Seems they've elevated the positive contact point so it stays above any moisture. The mated surfaces and threading also appear to be of a higher precision than the Mega or prior.

If we're talkin' about the stock OCC coils (can't speak for the RBA cig, need to run at least a few of these for a fair comparison)...

Brook considering heat up times is all well and good in consideration of flow and heat up time (too fast, jumpin' ahead of flow). But I would think the ratio of applied power (wire to wick contact area vs diffused to air) is far more pertinent. That is to say, multi-wire and thicker wire present a greater ratio of heat to air vs. contact surface than thin. Deflection with thinner wire is more pronounced particularly with a tighter wick like linear cotton or synthetics and a t.m.c. (contact is virtual). I believe that is what's happening here with the OCC in incorporating a thicker wire and less wrap counts. Hence, the drier output. Seems intuitive to me and I've heard all the arguments to the contrary.

So I gotta say both tanks exhibit pretty much the same and impressively very consistent behavior right up to 30 watts. Interestingly as noted earlier a better flavor result on the low end. Predictably. There's another way of expressing the above output description. Vaporization runs consistently ahead of the vape, i.e. slightly throttled, by design. Increasingly so with the application of power however not overwhelming the wicking. I don't believe that's incidental. That's my impression so far guys. Three coils, three variants of tobacco light, medium and dense offset by comparisons vs the monster build and standard 29AWG t.m.c. on both the Mega and Aero (PT3 heads). And the response is fairly consistent.

But again this is a snapshot.. I'd really like to run these stock coils through their paces a while. Actually quite impressed with what Kanger's done here.

This is the tensioned microcoil thread. We live and breathe contact.

(We'll be back to it momentarily.)

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Really? I think my rba is defective, and I'm not alone. More than a few peeps are getting the same results. Dry hitting above 18w in rba mode. The juice is not making it up to wick unless you draw really hard so some bubbles will rise and releave some low pressure in the tank.. Doesn't matter what wicking medium or wicking style used. That said, when the wick is wet the flavor is superb, just as good as my lemo adjusted to identical airflow and wattage.go figure.

Some peeps say no probs at all running at 20w, one says no probs at 27.5w. Either they are fibbing or kanger's design is marginaand greatly effected by small variances in machining tolerances.l Take your pick.

I'd agree with you tryin' the twisted for density to take advantage of the improved airflow. But I equate twisted with slower fire times and longer draws. So I wouldn't expect anything but insufficient vaporization trying to take short pulls. And yes, powering that up would probably dry you out if they're small Ø and hot. Kind of agree with brook there, 20W is only 20W if applied.

It's going to take some thought how to wring the density advantage out of the OCC. It should be more straightforward on the RBA. But isn't panning the design a bit premature?

<shrug>

Can we find a center? What works? Kanger did.

I draw a prelim conclusion not on my perspective but others I'm having sample the tank to gauge their experience. Happens to coincide with my own on the OCC. Didn't do much to relieve my skepticism of PB's video about the great flavor result with the OCC; yet "tastes like ayss" is more often residual lubrication rather than failed insulators that look perfect. My Mini came with the originals apparently and they're just fine.

I think Kanger's tried hard here to standardize the UE (user experience, lol) based on what (they believe) the average user wants.

As for the RBA, I'd try for first base if we want to make some sense of it. Finding it hard to understand how the draw or flow would vary to the extent noted (constrained) in RBA vs the OCC . Haven't examined it yet in any detail to be fair. Just doesn't make sense that Kanger would settle for a radically different performance criteria (UE) for one vs the other. And are the tolerances that much different for the RBA than the OCC? Then again, they want to sell more coils?

Why build the RBA at all then?

As much as I've been willing to pan Kanker over the last year this doesn't seem like a device that wasn't thought through, ready for prime time.

Can't speak for the peeps. Don't know their builds. But it would seem too much spec, not enough build.

Just sayin'. No hurries, no worries.

 

[brookj1986]

When I get mine Thursday or Friday, I'll mess around a bit. Now, it'll be a flavor I'm not that familiar with since it's my girlfriend's Wintergreen flavor, which I rarely vape. It'll be my standard protank build in the rba -- 29 gauge, shooting for about 1.4-1.6 ohm.

 

[cigatron]

Theory's are great guys but I'm living in reality. I have done too many rta builds to believe the wire or wick is giving me the dry hits at 20w. This ain't a protank with its design limitations. It's an rta with channels feeding the juice just like my egrip, lemo, billow, and kayfun.

Build the rba first, then get back to us and let us know how the vape is.

Brook, Mac, I reported my findings about the Mini Subtank here and on another dedicated thread. Some of the reports there are consistant with mine but here I know you two will build them with proper tensioned micros and wick them correctly and I sincerely hope your findings are contrary to mine.

Thanks

 

[MacTechVpr]

Theory's are great guys but I'm living in reality. I have done too many rta builds to believe the wire or wick is giving me the dry hits at 20w. This ain't a protank with its design limitations. It's an rta with channels feeding the juice just like my egrip, lemo, billow, and kayfun.

Build the rba first, then get back to us and let us know how the vape is.

Brook, Mac, I reported my findings about the Mini Subtank here and on another dedicated thread. Some of the reports there are consistant with mine but here I know you two will build them with proper tensioned micros and wick them correctly and I sincerely hope your findings are contrary to mine.

Thanks

What theory?

I think your's might be right. Bad RBA head, somehow, judging from the reports on Vap0rnomics thread. He went straight for the gusto at 27.5W RBA and reports finding flavor there. I look at his video and see no vapor. Can't get flavor without vapor. Where's the theory in that statement? I concur with my three samplers and what peep's are stating on the Mini thread. Draw is more relaxed than Atlantis and with a proper firing coil that should translate to more vapor. It seems it is from reports there.

Say your post there on the above thread…

I'm not able to run the mini above 20w without the wick going dry, unless I pull on it hard. Harder than any of the many rtas I own. A couple of primer puffs gets it wetted up nice but then the same thing happens. The dryish hits start after the first few draws when the vacuum draws the first bubbles after filling. Problem stops at near empty tank when vacuum breaks.

The build is a twisted 32awg KA1, 8 wrap, 3/32 dia, 2.1 ohm. KGD wicking is touching the juice deck but away from juice channels. Juice is 50/50. Airflow is set to middle positiion. Wicked this thing in every config I know but what the heck? Hearing reports here of peeps running 27w. Wazup?!

I'm not seeing any of the choked responses typical of previous Kanger tank's from vacuum issues. To be specific the resulting wetness at the base which reduced electrical efficiency and throttled vaporization (too wet for airflow). I seldom saw the dry out on Kanger's except for occasions of over-wicking or over-powered. The typical problem for any first generation 510 pin configuration. Even at 45W on four separate variables didn't see that on the OCC (.05Ω) so far. Hot, too diffuse to see flavorful as Vap0rnomics suggested, but no dry hits. Don't know where his vapor issue came from but there's a million reasons for it which we can't know without seeing his build and liquid.

Cig, not for me to say it's not there, if there is a difference in airflow for the RBA that would really be intriguing! And important to us all beyond a hundred peeps sayin' mine worked (or didn't). I'm trying to make the time but my eval process is a lot slower than the rest of you. Even as I haven't yet committed to expending my Kanger study and deploying a dozen of these honeys.

Real sorry bro you're having that first experience. Need your help if you've hit onto a problem or exception there so no criticism here. Just reporting the variation of what I'm seeing posted and in live demo. I wasn't planning on hitting the RBA for a while.

Good luck to ya, all.