Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[EL Pistoffo]

I did my wrap on a 1/16 drill bit. Question about torching the wire. Is it best to torch the wire before wrapping or after it has been wrapped and is compressed with pliers or tweezers?

The coil glows from the center outward when current is applied so I don't see a hot spot myself.

Thanks guys

 

[MacTechVpr]

A quick search on ebay for "1.75mm steel" came up with all kinds of interesting things to use to wrap coils on. My favorite that I saw in my quick search was US size 2-0 knitting needles. They are nice and long and can be cut down to any length. You could also do multiple wraps on it before you pull them all off, I would assume. I know a lot of cheap knitting needles are made out of aluminum and I dont have any clue what burning on thin aluminum (or if you can even get that size in aluminum because of the strength factor) would do but there were quite a few of them on ebay that were stainless steel or other kinds of steel. I am assuming at that diameter they would also be solid instead of hollow like many knitting needles.

Just an idea.

Excellent notion.

But avoid aluminum. It can burn at high temperatures. The melting point is 1,221°F (660.3°C). Most common butane torches can easily exceed that. You're having a bad hair day long before that.



I simply use an instrument screwdriver. Tape one small strand to the grip and buttress the winds against head of the grip. But multiples…naah. Can't easily do that on a small driver shank unless you're goin' really small. You're right. Probably more manageable on a longer spindle. Use your thumb to hold the strand separating winds with your thumb and tape. Remember that long section is two legs. Next!

The important thing here is not what you use but to know the precise diameter. Right now I'm posting specs for winds on popular hot zones. These specs…

30AWG, 11/10 1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 2.1Ω √

are sign posts but to hit 1.68 you've got to measure and do a bit of math. In the near future I'll be posting a few calculators. But you'll need to know two things. The first is how long the legs are for the atomizer. Well I know what they are for the Protank. You can too. Just measure it coming out. The second thing is…the diameter that you're winding on. If you know the diameter you can know the eventual resistance if someone has reported it on the forum, or you can calculate it. That's why I recommend it. So once you want to move beyond, between, above, below you can know how to get there.

The 1.75 Ø is great because it's the largest that will fit in the slot and allow a thicker wick while permitting a solid installation. A longer bit is sometimes helpful. A darning or knitting needle certainly fits the bill.

Enjoy fiddle, Happy Holidays.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I did my wrap on a 1/16 drill bit. Question about torching the wire. Is it best to torch the wire before wrapping or after it has been wrapped and is compressed with pliers or tweezers?

Torch the wire until it lightly glows for the section you're going to use. This is only to remove lubricants and other contaminants. If your not going to tension build but compress, get a good pincers or tweezers (Tweezerman, good sharp). Compress the coil gently as you torch. I prefer no more than 5-6 seconds, others longer. But torching can literally burn off some of this narrow material weakening the wire. I like to quench between torchings, up to three times or more even, to reinforce a specific change in shape I'm trying to encourage. Like at times correcting a narrow separation from the wind. Until it's good. The quenching builds in additional rigidity. High and low points, out of round, should go back on the shank. Sometimes I burn it there under tension to reinforce using a forceps to apply tightness. Careful as you can burn the legs right off doing that. Short bursts.

The coil glows from the center outward when current is applied so I don't see a hot spot myself.

You definitely have a contact coil (microcoil). But there can still be lapses. The more of these you clear by compressing, either when torching or by pulsing the mod, the tighter, the better more precise the resistance minimum for that wind and your vape. And yes, sometime separations can be quite small and difficult to see in the glow. You'll see them in variations on your ohmmeter or your variable device as you remove and reinstall the coil base. If it's rock solid, you'll go to that number every time. If it varies, it may be in indication that there's something loose in the build.

Thanks guys

No worries. Good luck.

 

[EL Pistoffo]

Torch the wire until it lightly glows for the section you're going to use. This is only to remove lubricants and other contaminants. If your not going to tension build but compress, get a good pincers or tweezers (Tweezerman, good sharp). Compress the coil gently as you torch. I prefer no more than 5-6 seconds, others longer. But torching can literally burn off some of this narrow material weakening the wire. I like to quench between torchings, up to three times or more even, to reinforce a specific change in shape I'm trying to encourage. Like at times correcting a narrow separation from the wind. Until it's good. The quenching builds in additional rigidity. High and low points, out of round, should go back on the shank. Sometimes I burn it there under tension to reinforce using a forceps to apply tightness. Careful as you can burn the legs right off doing that. Short bursts.



You definitely have a contact coil (microcoil). But there can still be lapses. The more of these you clear by compressing, either when torching or by pulsing the mod, the tighter, the better more precise the resistance minimum for that wind and your vape. And yes, sometime separations can be quite small and difficult to see in the glow. You'll see them in variations on your ohmmeter or your variable device as you remove and reinstall the coil base. If it's rock solid, you'll go to that number every time. If it varies, it may be in indication that there's something loose in the build.



No worries. Good luck.

I definitely need to get my coil compressed as closely as possible. It barely, and I mean barely, clears the sides of the head. As a matter of fact the coil has a slight overall curve like a rainbow when viewed from above, not intentionally done I might add. If not for that curve I don't think it would have fit.

I pre-torched the wire before wrapping it, my understanding was that in addition to cleaning contaminates, it reduces the springiness of the wire. I need to work on that technique as well.

I moved the tank between mods several times today and the final stable resistance wet is 2.1 ohms according to my MVP 2.

The cloud of vapor is definitely greater with this micro-coil.

 

[MacTechVpr]

The cloud of vapor is definitely greater with this micro-coil.

Thank you, EL Pistoffo! That is precisely the point of this discussion.

Happy Holidays.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I definitely need to get my coil compressed as closely as possible. It barely, and I mean barely, clears the sides of the head. As a matter of fact the coil has a slight overall curve like a rainbow when viewed from above, not intentionally done I might add. If not for that curve I don't think it would have fit.

This video demonstrates the point we've been discussing about small imperfections in the coil that may be difficult to see…starting at about 3:15 the coil fires the first time and you will see both legs get hot...

How To Make A Perfect Micro Coil With The Darkzero Coil Jig - YouTube

First, I strongly recommend building precision coils with hand tension off the spool. Particularly for the Protank and similarly enclosed atomizer tanks. If you look at some of the pics I posted earlier right on the screwdriver compared to the product off the professionally crafted jig in this video you will definitely see the difference. Not to mention the cost and fiddly involved in multiple squeezings and torchings. Eliminated, by tension winding instead of hand-over-hand winding no matter how tight you think you got it. You have more hand pressure than finger pressure. Then you may pulse a torsioned coil once the head is perfectly installed and aligned in the cup assembly. No further handling or manipulation after that, minimizing the possibility of the coil being deformed after it's built. Advantage: Less handling, possibility for error.

If you want to augment a tension wind you can use a forceps, for example, to add tension to the legs, squeezing the coil together tightly and...torch it right on the mandrel (drill bit, screwdriver, etc). Then proceed to installation in the head directly without ever having taken the wind off the mandrel!

However, there are times that we want to build more rigidity into a coil to encourage its durability. And this video starting at the above marker demonstrates how to do that. Since I build coils for compression off the device, I quench after each torching and compression enhancing the set of stiffness. But still, consider, you are reinforcing the shape you first created. It's always beneficial if you first build the coil with tension to achieve as perfect an initial shape as a starting point for the coil as possible. Makes your life easier and performance better in the long run.

Ok, finally, the video graphically makes the point, the contact coil (microcoil) works best, heats faster and hotter, shorts less…when its shape is optimally perfected to a point of symmetry. That's where you get your best vape regardless what of you're building for.

Happy Holidays all.

Good luck!

 

[EL Pistoffo]

Good video. I haven't noticed hot legs on my coils yet. His coils are very uniform. That coil jig gadget is pretty cool. His method of squeezing coil after heating is a good idea which I tried using a lighter with less success.

I see your point of tension. I made two more coils. Another of the same build, 1/16 drill bit, 30g, 11 wraps, 2.2 ohm. And a second a little different, 5/64 drill bit, 8-9 wraps 1.8 ohm. My fingers aren't all that thin, makes tight winding difficult. Other issue is I've been torching with a lighter. My only other torch is a mapp gas torch which is probably too hot. Gonna need a chefs torch I guess.

These are my two latest coils. Not perfect by any means but functional. I will nail this down to very clean, uniform builds one way or the other. That's where different techniques as those mentioned in this thread as well as practice will come into play.

2.2 ohm

1.8 ohm

 

[MacTechVpr]

Good video. I haven't noticed hot legs on my coils yet. His coils are very uniform. That coil jig gadget is pretty cool. His method of squeezing coil after heating is a good idea which I tried using a lighter with less success.

I see your point of tension. I made two more coils. Another of the same build, 1/16 drill bit, 30g, 11 wraps, 2.2 ohm. And a second a little different, 5/64 drill bit, 8-9 wraps 1.8 ohm. My fingers aren't all that thin, makes tight winding difficult. Other issue is I've been torching with a lighter. My only other torch is a mapp gas torch which is probably too hot. Gonna need a chefs torch I guess.

These are my two latest coils. Not perfect by any means but functional. I will nail this down to very clean, uniform builds one way or the other. That's where different techniques as those mentioned in this thread as well as practice will come into play.

2.2 ohm

Look, you're doin' fine for less than a handful of builds. Pics are great. Cotton density looks good. Resistance near perfect. Lookin down the cup looks like termination is good but the end wraps could be better and more in the direction that the last turn is headed.

There's a picture on this thread with me winding off a coil. I'm really ham handed sometimes and couldn't wind a garden hose, much less one of these. But it's a heck of a let easier to turn a screwdriver than try to lay such fine wire down. All you have to do with tension is hold the coil in one hand and turn the screwdriver with the other once you got the first couple of turns. Even an old fart like me can do it most days. LOL But it does take a bit to get used to the motion. Gotta admit. And I pulled a few wires myself pullin' too hard at first or letting em' too loose. So it happens. They get easier and tighter as you train your body, your hands. Just like any other physical activity. The body does resist change whether the challenge is large or small.

Have to get back to the thread later. Family calling.

Good luck!

 

[fogging_katrider]

thread tagged for reference...thanks great info as usual Mac and others in this thread

 

[MacTechVpr]

thread tagged for reference...thanks great info as usual Mac and others in this thread

Thanks foggy…you always pick up on all the good ones, don't cha?

Merry Christmas to you and yours, to all!

 

[EL Pistoffo]

Thanks Mac.

I'll have to wade through the 39 pages of this thread to find your picture when I have some time. Right now I'm in the middle of carto issues that need some attention. I'm having some prematurely fail so trying different brands. Cleaning out tanks and priming cartos takes a little prep work.

I do want to find a more efficient way of winding my coils so that's next on my list.

Merry Christmas folks.

 

[M_DuBb716]

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone!!

I used to use flavor-wicks on my micros but stopped using them awhile ago, they seem to mute the flavor a bit.
..... I've been having problems with my cotton wicking lately.. It seems like I always overdo it no matter how small a piece I use. Last night I rolled up a piece so small that my tank leaked for a half hour. Than afterwards it stopped leaking, but I'm getting a cotton taste now like the wick is cutting off juice to my coil from being too thick.

This is with a 1.58mm micro, I think I'm going to start doing the 1.7mm again and the same amount of wick

 

[MacTechVpr]

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone!! ...I think I'm going to start doing the 1.7mm again and the same amount of wick

Thanks M, the big one, for your greetings and this great thread opportunity! You do that. That mid-point will let you wick thicker and more wick less chance of the gurgles!

And don't forget — If you coil from the spool, you'll always be .

Merry Christmas to you and yours, to all!

 

[MacTechVpr]

Thanks Mac.

I'll have to wade through the 39 pages...I do want to find a more efficient way of winding my coils so that's next on my list.

Merry Christmas folks.

Thanks P. Merry Christmas to you and yours too.

I tried my best to do a straightforward search for pic's I posted. It's hard on this forum. Glad you found it.

View attachment 284447

The first pic, you found, is actually .5x.1 ribbon. Same principle. There are several hand holds. You have to see what works for you. But this hold permits the most pressure, I found. Straight wire permits a more relaxed grip. The second pic is the result of a typical torsioned wind for 29/30 AWG. That's exactly the finish of the wind...before any further tensioning or "de-winding", a method of taking off and tightening surplus turns in a coil, which I do routinely. I'll try to take some pics of that sequence and the particular method I use which I've demonstrated to a number of vendors with some pretty amazing reactions. Not only to the process but the resulting performance. I hope the latter pic helps to validate what I've said, that these coils come out with a rather perfect symmetry from the outset. It minimizes the work needed to finish an assembly quite a bit, and time.

However folks many experienced builders on this forum have been tensioning coils for many months now, perhaps years. Look at the final product in other picture threads. This wasn't accomplished with "scrunchy". Let's face it most of us know what a torsion coil is since we were kids. A precision electrical coil is nothing new to us, or shouldn't be. What I bring to the table here is confirmation that this can be easily accomplished very likely using the same supplies and tools you have on hand.

Of course mine aren't perfect. I've got to get out of the habit of grabbing the legs high rather than at the tip when I tension the coil and de-wind the extra turns. I grasped the leg on the left number of times too high disfiguring it; or, it would have ended up as straight as the one on the right. If you mind this tip you can end up with a coil that is amazingly symmetrical and pristine right on the mandrel. It's easier to handle and complete termination when it's clean like that. It will adjust easier as well when you do the final tensioning of the legs with the grommet installed if the legs are straight. You likely will shave a few hundredths off resistance as well by reducing wire length.

Happy Holidays! Good luck.

 

[EL Pistoffo]

I get it now. Gotta try that out myself.

How are you holding the beginning of the wire to the screwdriver as you wind the screwdriver with tension? I saw some tape on one pic but not sure how you could keep the starting end of wire straight and not disfigure it if its attached with tape to the driver.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I get it now. Gotta try that out myself.

How are you holding the beginning of the wire to the screwdriver as you wind the screwdriver with tension? I saw some tape on one pic but not sure how you could keep the starting end of wire straight and not disfigure it if its attached with tape to the driver.

A common piece of Scotch tape. When done I pull off the coil with tape in place. I slice the tape away with a single cut from a mini-box cutter. Next! Really shouldn't be any harder than that. And then the countless videos repeating the same inadequate coils when it isn't any more work to do an efficient coil. I spent weeks makin' regular coils. I should've known better. I had to do it the way everyone else was doin' it. But I'd been watching network installers make coils for years. They have similar, more expensive tools, similar to a multi-bit screw driver, and the wire slides into the collet with the bit, one turn lock. Same premise. Unfortunately on most such screwdrivers you'll notice that the shank diameter is constant. A shame or a lot of common screwdrivers would be perfect. Honestly cheap and plentiful is better. You can torch the sh!!t out of 'em and toss 'em if you need to. Hand pressure does the job quickly. No worries.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I get it now. Gotta try that out myself.

Congratz. Here are some of the essential sizes needed for most of the typical mass produced tanks (and others)

Tool Bench Precision Screwdriver Set | eBay

The 1/16" and so called 3/43" (nominally 1.77 mm) fit neatly to the bottom of the coil slot on Kanger's and many clearo's. The 3/43" is the hardest to come across. And 1.8 mm is about the precise width of the slot so that size will likely not fit, especially if it's slightly over-sized. The shanks on these are rough but typically within +/-6% (which is good!). That happens to be the engineering design tolerance for drilled holes of these sizes.

These sets are very common at dollar stores and pharmacies. Many of us have 'em lying around in our kitchen drawers since the sunglasses or the kids' toys broke. All you need.

Good luck.

 

[EL Pistoffo]

Congratz. Here are some of the essential sizes needed for most of the typical mass produced tanks (and others)

Tool Bench Precision Screwdriver Set | eBay

The 1/16" and so called 3/43" (nominally 1.77 mm) fit neatly to the bottom of the coil slot on Kanger's and many clearo's. The 3/43" is the hardest to come across. And 1.8 mm is about the precise width of the slot so that size will likely not fit, especially if it's slightly over-sized. The shanks on these are rough but typically within +/-6% (which is good!). That happens to be the engineering design tolerance for drilled holes of these sizes.

These sets are very common at dollar stores and pharmacies. Many of us have 'em lying around in our kitchen drawers since the sunglasses or the kids' toys broke. All you need.

Good luck.

I've got too many sets of those drivers. I just gotta look for 'em.

 

[M_DuBb716]

I need to find a 3/43" bit I'd like to try a micro on that..

I built a pretty decent MC today using Mac's scotch-tape technique, after a few pretty weak past attempts these past couple days. So didn't have that great of a vape yesterday for xmas but it was still a great day lol. I wrapped a tiny piece of the tape around my starting leg on the left, so the wire was taped parallel against the drill-bit, and wrapped with my right hand.
...... Still couldnt keep the drill bit and wire from causing a bit of pain to my fingers, from the tension of it all hah! But I have built some calluses by now lol - I need a jig!

Anyways, my usual - 10 wraps of 30g on a 1/16in (1.59mm) bit, 1.9ohms. It came out pretty good, than I got it near perfect after burning/tweezer-squeezing, than I messed it up slightly by squeezing too hard and 1 of the last wraps is overlapping now. Still getting a good vape now though, finally!!

 

[M_DuBb716]

So 1.9Ω is definitely my sweet spot!!
^ best flavor/vapor from my own microcoil builds on my PT1/2, and on pretty much any other stock coil I've tried (T2, T3, eVod, PT, etc..)

Until I try a sub-ohm coil on a mech, or a double/triple/quad micro on any device, and other crazy dripper builds, 1.9Ω will remain my sweet spot.