Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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MacTechVpr

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...Curiosity got the best of me, so I filled the tank up with Boba's Bounty (100% VG). It's wicking fantastic.

Ohhhh, yeeaaah…that's what I'm talkin' about.

I also drilled out the 3 small holes in the protank base to 1/16" in hopes of improving air flow. More air = More vapor. Seems to have worked. The draw is much easier and my living room has a noticeable haze in it...Currently vaping it on my Nemesis clone with a kick. (wattage unknown, dialed to where I like it) This thing will hold it's own with any of my drippers or RBAs vapor wise. It's been a fun experiment. And a tasty one too. :)

Pretty much the rig I'm runnin', 9 wraps 30, 2.0Ω, 4V/8W with Johnson Creek Tenn. Cured or Boba's. It get's steeaaamy when you crank it and chain. :D

No modding of Protanks. They all run stock mode for wick and juice tests. But I may be breakin' for the dremel tomorrow if you keep this up.

I've added two new favorites to my roster for rotation the last few month. One is an absolutely creamy delightful tobacco very dense like JCTC…Ginger's RY4 from The Vapor Room. The powerful nutmeg is what gives this a fired honey flue flavor and it is fantastic. Not what I thought would be my cup of tea. Turned out to be outstanding. And it's gotten a front row seat in my rotation. TVR let's you select both the nic level as well as flavor shots per bottle order. So you can order a mix of nic and flavor levels and dial up your own elixir perfectly suited to the device you want to explore it with. So I set up iterations for the big vapor Trident and Helios, the Immo collection and the stand of variables with Protanks.

Life is good.

Enjoy!

:)
 

beckdg

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This is Mac's post (#211) from Page 22, on Torsion Winding. Just wanted to quote this so I can re-read it later tonight, and for everybody else. Valuable info right here!

just a point to ponder. something to consider...

the forceps in that picture are creating a pinch and pivot point. weakening the kanthal and limiting torsion on the wind to that mandrel.

it is also applying pressure or torsion in an inefficient manner.

hence why mac has to pull so hard he's actually reported breaking the kanthal several times in an effort to create the perfect torsion wind.

if the pressure/pull/torsion is applied correctly at the correct diameter throughout the entire wind, not only do you need a lot less of it, but it's a lot easier to apply.

hence why i can turn a coil so tight with a moderate pinch, it's very difficult to get it off the mandrel without distorting it.

look at pipe benders and machine wound springs (like for vehicle springs and struts) for example. nothing holds pressure on the end of the pipe because that would take a massive amount more energy and would destroy product.

instead the leverage is applied to the mandrel and the pipe or spring is torsioned at a close proximity (diameter) to the mandrel itself. it's highly efficient, effective, controllable and repeatable.

some of what i'm saying is evidenced in a later post by mac himself when he displays winding with the same tension right off the spool. he's removed that break point the hemostats introduced and allowed his hands to be repositioned thus that they can be controlled better with less effort. though he still has to pull like the dickens to get a good torsion wind because he's using tension to replicate torsion.

simply put, the jig does it better with a lot less effort. if you can replicate that somehow, you've got it made.

here's me winding straight off the spool with kinks in it. 3 kinks in that wind if i remember correct...



as you can see, i took my time, wound extra winds and removed them and added the probably unnecessary step of annealing and tightening (setting) the coil after the coil was wound. still came in under 4.5 minutes with nearly no effort.

here is the resulting coil from that build...

beckdg-albums-protank-musings-picture289798-12-wraps-28-ga-kanthal-1-8-kanger-head-coil.jpg


make no mistake, that is a tension coil with the added benefit of heat setting the winds in place.

one thing i can say - and you can probably see it in the video - my hands are entirely too shaky and unpredictable to predictably wind onto a screw driver or drill bit. i've built computers, rack servers, done IT and help desk, construction, carpentry, etc. for a living and i can work around it, but it's just not as consistent as i'm willing to work around for something that i should enjoy such as the wind on my atty.

now that's a 5/64" (2mm per mac's instruction) 12 wrap coil for future insertion into one of my pro tanks.

here's another coil i've used one of those jigs for...

rDy8xjC.jpg


that one is a 1/16" (1.58mm per mac's instruction) 12 wrap diamond coil currently in use in my igo-l. she hits like a freight train and tastes exponentially better than she hits.

it took 2 different jigs (same design) with different diameter mandrels to make those 2 coils, but they cost me less than a buck and a few minutes of my time each to make. life is grand.

mac is a highly intelligent dude. i've learned a lot from him. i'm also very grateful he pointed me back to the rip trippers vid. however. no matter how intelligent and informed a person might be, they'll never have the answers to everything. and let's not forget, he admittedly spent a lot of time ...... on that electric fence. he learned from the vantage point of repeated failures. he's going to have and share information that comes from that vantage point. it's our job as we learn to attempt to discern what's relevant and beneficial from that wealth of information and what we can find better information for elsewhere.

good luck, M. hope you get the consistent results you're looking for.

EDIT: just to be clear, this post has nothing to do with the jig. the jig was merely used for illustration purposes. the point is, if you're still having trouble, maybe give some thought or study time to another method. even if you return to the same method ultimately, it might give you some insight and improve your methods and/or consistency.
 
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MacTechVpr

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Someone posted a link to the Amazon Coiling Gizmo, here it is in action: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...sion/510520-coils-made-easy.html#post11777740

I am very grateful for this discussion, btw.

In a sea of millions of great ideas that's ECF it's a blessing to find a small shaded oasis with the fundamentals…two great predecessors…

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/clearomizers/396220-kanger-protank-rebuild.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/tips-tricks/463771-protank-cotton-rebuild-way-i-do.html
; and...

M_DuBb716's excellent present thread…http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/clearomizers/486794-protank-microcoil-discussion.html

Now what was that about hoop rings and Rube Goldberg?

Good luck!

:)
 
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beckdg

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Someone posted a link to the Amazon Coiling Gizmo, here it is in action: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...sion/510520-coils-made-easy.html#post11777740

I am very grateful for this discussion, btw.

fantastic example, Flavored.

there's also the darkzero coil jig and the one posted/created by cvedrick... or any simple way to support the rod (mandrel) you're coiling onto.

<edit>happened across this just now. it's a twist/copy of the darkzero coil jig. probably a good idea for someone looking for the darkzero that can't get one.

anyway...

and since it seems they may not have a store or site, their facebook page... https://www.facebook.com/KKVapetek</edit>

anything that reduces the twiching, straining necessity of exacting hand motor skills and/or the ham over fisted motion that induces a level of difficulty that's not necessary without over complicating things is a winner in my book.

let's just hope those that are following without nearly instant success can see the light at the end of the tunnel. the coils really are the simplest part of rebuilding IMHO.
 
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Nightcall

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I'm using Sugar 'n Cream yarn. I think I finally got a build that is working nicely in the Mini Protank 2. With one individual strand from the 4 strand thread in the coil, and one on top as a flavor wick, I've gotten through two and half tanks smoothly. No leaking or flooding right to the end of liquid (almost). This is the best performance I've had so far, knock on wood. Solid flavor too, though nothing earth-shattering. 70/30 juice (Coconut Cavendish, NETcom).

This is a 30g 10 wrap around a micro screw driver which is probably close to 1/16. 1.8 ohm. It seems just the slightest bit too much cotton resulted in eventual clogging and flooding.

I have a love/hate with this Mini PT. When it's working it's an enjoyable tank. Nice easy draw, looks nice, etc...

My regular Protank 2 on the other hand, is still a work in progress.
 

MacTechVpr

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Aug 24, 2013
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just a point to ponder. something to consider...

the forceps in that picture are creating a pinch and pivot point. weakening the kanthal and limiting torsion on the wind to that mandrel.

it is also applying pressure or torsion in an inefficient manner.

hence why mac has to pull so hard he's actually reported breaking the kanthal several times in an effort to create the perfect torsion wind.

if the pressure/pull/torsion is applied correctly at the correct diameter throughout the entire wind, not only do you need a lot less of it, but it's a lot easier to apply.

hence why i can turn a coil so tight with a moderate pinch, it's very difficult to get it off the mandrel without distorting it.

look at pipe benders and machine wound springs (like for vehicle springs and struts) for example. nothing holds pressure on the end of the pipe because that would take a massive amount more energy and would destroy product.

instead the leverage is applied to the mandrel and the pipe or spring is torsioned at a close proximity (diameter) to the mandrel itself. it's highly efficient, effective, controllable and repeatable.

some of what i'm saying is evidenced in a later post by mac himself when he displays winding with the same tension right off the spool. he's removed that break point the hemostats introduced and allowed his hands to be repositioned thus that they can be controlled better with less effort. though he still has to pull like the dickens to get a good torsion wind because he's using tension to replicate torsion.

simply put, the jig does it better with a lot less effort. if you can replicate that somehow, you've got it made.

here's me winding straight off the spool with kinks in it. 3 kinks in that wind if i remember correct...

as you can see, i took my time, wound extra winds and removed them and added the probably unnecessary step of annealing and tightening (setting) the coil after the coil was wound. still came in under 4.5 minutes with nearly no effort.

here is the resulting coil from that build...

make no mistake, that is a tension coil with the added benefit of heat setting the winds in place.

one thing i can say - and you can probably see it in the video - my hands are entirely too shaky and unpredictable to predictably wind onto a screw driver or drill bit. i've built computers, rack servers, done IT and help desk, construction, carpentry, etc. for a living and i can work around it, but it's just not as consistent as i'm willing to work around for something that i should enjoy such as the wind on my atty.

now that's a 5/64" (2mm per mac's instruction) 12 wrap coil for future insertion into one of my pro tanks.

here's another coil i've used one of those jigs for...

that one is a 1/16" (1.58mm per mac's instruction) 12 wrap diamond coil currently in use in my igo-l. she hits like a freight train and tastes exponentially better than she hits.

it took 2 different jigs (same design) with different diameter mandrels to make those 2 coils, but they cost me less than a buck and a few minutes of my time each to make. life is grand.

mac is a highly intelligent dude. i've learned a lot from him. i'm also very grateful he pointed me back to the rip trippers vid. however. no matter how intelligent and informed a person might be, they'll never have the answers to everything. and let's not forget, he admittedly spent a lot of time ...... on that electric fence. he learned from the vantage point of repeated failures. he's going to have and share information that comes from that vantage point. it's our job as we learn to attempt to discern what's relevant and beneficial from that wealth of information and what we can find better information for elsewhere.

good luck, M. hope you get the consistent results you're looking for.

EDIT: just to be clear, this post has nothing to do with the jig. the jig was merely used for illustration purposes. the point is, if you're still having trouble, maybe give some thought or study time to another method. even if you return to the same method ultimately, it might give you some insight and improve your methods and/or consistency.

Beck, Happy New Year again.

This isn't brain surgery. I think you kinda missed the point fella. I'm writing to an audience that still struggling with freehand winding. The kind that get intimidated and go back to using needles as wind guides. I hope they end up buying darkzero's jig and try to stuff diamond winds into CE4's, if that's what floats their boat. The folks I'm appealing to forgot what a screen door spring does and don't know what it induces in an electric circuit. Also, you don't know apparently that I was demonstrating step by step an approach I've known how to do for many years Beck. But you see they've never seen torsion applied practically in this context (incidentally, I was just holding the forceps in that shot demonstrating the tightness of the result). Like you I'd like to see the folks I'm speaking to get to the point they can target a sub-ohm quad, if that's what they want…but you gotta walk before you can fly Ω. I'd hate to see them run away from a thread that doesn't help because it's gotten too complex and experimental. I don't think that was the OP's intention, do you?

Best of luck to you always!

:)
 
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The Kid

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Beck, Happy New Year again.

This isn't brain surgery. I think you kinda missed the point fella. I'm writing to an audience that still struggling with freehand winding. The kind that get intimidated and go back to using needles as wind guides. I hope they end up buying darkzero's jig and try to stuff diamond winds into CE4's, if that's what floats their boat. The folks I'm appealing to forgot what a screen door spring does and don't know what it induces in an electric circuit. Also, you don't know apparently that I was demonstrating step by step an approach I've known how to do for many years Beck. But you see they've never seen torsion applied practically in this context (incidentally, I was just holding the forceps in that shot demonstrating the tightness of the result). Like you I'd like to see the folks I'm speaking to get to the point they can target a sub-ohm quad, if that's what they want…but you gotta walk before you can fly Ω. I'd hate to see them run away from a thread that doesn't help because it's gotten too complex and experimental. I don't think that was the OP's intention, do you?

Best of luck to you always!

:)
keep doing what you are doing, i have learned so much from your post
 

beckdg

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Beck, Happy New Year again.

This isn't brain surgery. exactly my point. I think you kinda missed the point fella. i'm not thinking. you are missing my point. i think maybe purposely. don't take it so personal. it isn't. I'm writing to an audience that still struggling with freehand winding. and suggesting they continue attempting what they're failing at. lunacy. The kind that get intimidated and go back to using needles as wind guides. then give them an easier way. whad'ya say? put away your pride for a minute and allow them the opportunity to quit kicking themselves? I hope they end up buying darkzero's jig and try to stuff diamond winds into CE4's, if that's what floats their boat. i don't care what floats their boats. that's up to them, but i wish them the best of luck. The folks I'm appealing to forgot what a screen door spring does and don't know what it induces in an electric circuit. sounds rather insulting. good thing you're not referring to me. Also, you don't know apparently that I was demonstrating step by step an approach I've known how to do for many years Beck. not sure why that matters, but okay. But you see they've never seen torsion applied practically in this context again, okay? (incidentally, I was just holding the forceps in that shot demonstrating the tightness of the result). irrelevant. holding the coiling material with a tool at the end still limits your success and torsion due to breakages... and you still admitted it later in the thread. Like you I'd like to see the folks I'm speaking to get to the point YES!!! so allow them to do it in a way they can have easy success. they can target a sub-ohm quad, if that's what they want…but you gotta walk before you can fly Ω. i'm catching a condescending point in that remark. nobody's suggesting to fly off the bat. although, it's pretty easy when compared to walking by hand winding in any context with any amount of experience. I'd hate to see them run away from a thread that doesn't help because it's gotten too complex and experimental. then quit doing this. I don't think that was the OP's intention, do you? another smart remark?

Best of luck to you always!

:)

here we go again. :blink:

it's not brain surgery and there are way easier ways.

exponentially easier.

the coil is the easy part of any build - especially protanks.

your explanations are harder than the coil builds.

harder to create and harder to understand. (though, not hard at all to understand.)

i think you missed the point. you're still writing to an audience... and they're still struggling with free hand winding... something i can't do consistently... did you see my hands in that video? and you're still telling them to wind free handed!?!?

this is archaic. draconian. torture chambers lust to be so effective.

I skipped failing at walking after very few attempts. then i jumped out of the nest and floated very easily. no, it's not rocket surgery. anybody can do what i did. just not by repeating what isn't working for them. that would be lunacy. (intermittent insanity)

if i get intimidated working on my car, i get a better tool for the job. same applies here.

nothing complex here... not like your twisted bunnies you mentioned before. nothing sub ohm here. that diamond measures at 2.1Ω. :p

those forceps are still going to create a breaking point regardless why you were holding them for a pic.

but go ahead, mac. talk me out of the thread. it's your stage. you have the mic. enjoy it my friend.

i wish you the best.
 

classwife

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ok...cut it out in here.

Disrespecting people is NOT what we do on ECF.


Everyone has their own way of adapting what works for them.
Nothing is set in stone as to how to do any of this.

You take a little from this person and a little from that person...add your own twist...


That is why we are all here...to give and take and share...smh...


Attitudes are to be left at the log in door please.
 

The Kid

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im doing the torsion micro on mine and they are turning out great. wrap 14 rounds, heat with torch and squeeze and put back on the screwdriver and pull off 2 wraps per side. this is 28 gauge and coming in at 1.4 ohms. im happy because doing it this way did away with the 1/2 second heat up delay and the 1/2 second after burn
 

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M_DuBb716

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Kid - excellent looking coil! I bet it vapes great.. I'm pretty sure 14 wraps is about the max you could fit inside a Protank head. The most I've done was 13, but I definitely could have fit another wrap in there (maybe 2). Some say the optimal zone (no matter what gauge wire) for microcoiling is around 7-12 wraps, because more wraps will take longer to heat up on a regular battery, and may not give you the vape you seek. This might be different if you're using a mech/mod though, the best battery I've ever used is my eVic (11watt limit, btw I dropped it in the toilet the other day and she still vapes fine lol).
...... And obviously, "different strokes" - some people might like 1 build, some might like a different 1.. Same goes for technique and how you get to your finished product.

I'm going to grab some 28gauge Kanthal and experiment with some builds with more winds, lower resistance. I built a couple regular coils a couple days ago @ a lower resistance than I'd usually like (1.3-1.6ohm), and the vape was suprisingly good. And these weren't even micros. My tastes could be changing too.
:)
...My past couple microcoils have been a bit sloppy; so I'm going to build a new one tonight with the last of my 30g and report back with the results. Have a good night everyone! Stay safe if you are dealing with this crappy weather
:vapor:
 

The Kid

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Kid - excellent looking coil! I bet it vapes great.. I'm pretty sure 14 wraps is about the max you could fit inside a Protank head. The most I've done was 13, but I definitely could have fit another wrap in there (maybe 2). Some say the optimal zone (no matter what gauge wire) for microcoiling is around 7-12 wraps, because more wraps will take longer to heat up on a regular battery, and may not give you the vape you seek. This might be different if you're using a mech/mod though, the best battery I've ever used is my eVic (11watt limit, btw I dropped it in the toilet the other day and she still vapes fine lol).
...... And obviously, "different strokes" - some people might like 1 build, some might like a different 1.. Same goes for technique and how you get to your finished product.

I'm going to grab some 28gauge Kanthal and experiment with some builds with more winds, lower resistance. I built a couple regular coils a couple days ago @ a lower resistance than I'd usually like (1.3-1.6ohm), and the vape was suprisingly good. And these weren't even micros. My tastes could be changing too.
:)
...My past couple microcoils have been a bit sloppy; so I'm going to build a new one tonight with the last of my 30g and report back with the results. Have a good night everyone! Stay safe if you are dealing with this crappy weather
:vapor:
no no it started with 14 wraps then i pulled 2 wraps off per side to make it a perfect 10 wrap, thats where the "torsion" comes from. at 1.4 ohms i hitting it with 13w on my svd
 
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