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Bill, I don't think this case is about a patent. Hana Modz did not invent the dna 30 chip, and there is nothing innovative about an aluminum box. It's about the Hana Modz trademark. I don't know who the Chinese think they're fooling by putting someone else's name on their product. And the store fronts should insist that the replicas don't infringe trademarks. Hana Modz are being a little heavy handed though. They didn't even bother with a cease and desist letter, and went straight to court. I'm sorry, I don't have a soft spot for companies like Hana Modz who buy a $ 30 chip, stick it in an aluminium box, and charge $ 200 for it. They are in the right legally, but to sue a b & m for $ 100, 000 ? Did they really sell that many counterfeit boxes ?
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important point Mac. While almost all the replication and counterfeiting is done by the Chinese, it's important to remember a good deal of the innovation is happening there as well.Absolutely, on the chilling effect of regulatory uncertainty. Blunts technological advancement. So there is no disincentive either for our offshore competitors in their government sanctioned spectacular free-for-all of unmitigated replication of others' property. That has a chilling effect on innovation too. It's time for us to start thinking outside of the box we have put ourselves in. We almost seem to believe we're supposed to live in this paper prison.
On the other hand, I'm a technologist. I see and appreciate where Bill is coming from. I love the eVic and I applaud the Chinese for making it. It was a flash in the pan insofar as its teaser technology. And I don't see any formidable innovation on the horizon on this score of intelligent automation in PV's. It's the kind of nice notion that institutional and governmental authority love to quash unless they can control it. Mind you its not because of creators and innovators. The technology is there to be had. Proof positive How long did we wait for high resolution digital television? Why is duplication still being restrained through governmental and cross-media standards? Governments concerns for personal property, copyright. LOLOLOL
Technological innovation won't come because we persuade high powered industry and government to sanction it. They won't. They really don't create anything. It comes because bright smart innovators like Steve Jobs and Art Wozniak just won't say no to the big guns and keep at it. No matter how much you call 'em dumb and their vision stupid.
You just can't suppress the human intellect. It is persistent.
Good luck to all of you innovators watching.
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Yes, I deleted several hundred PM's and I hope it works now. try it. Also, I sent you a PM about this.
Maz, I've read the lawsuit. This is about an American retailer selling Chinese made Hana Modz clones. Trademarks have been applied for, as well as patents. This is a pure and simple intellectual property rights ripoff, unauthorized use of likeness, name, and device, etc. They seem remuneration of profits, attorney's fees and $150,000. I can find the suit if you would like to read it. It's a very straightforward violation of the Sherman Act. Let me know.
You and I disagree on rights of Hana Modz, and the lawsuit. I feel the exact opposite. To each their own. Good luck.
Bill, I have access to the the law suit, and I have also heard from one if the retailers sued, on a podcast . The retailer insisted that had he received a cease and desist letter, he would have stopped immediately, and also said that if every brick and mortar that sells clones were to be sued, there will ne no brick and mortars left in business.
If a real innovator, like svoemesto was suing, I would understand, but Hana ? They took the dna chip and copied the box size factor from innokin. I am actually curious to see what they patented. Having said that it is absolutely idiotic for anyone to sell counterfeit Hana Modz and should absolutely insist that the mods don't have a logo.
I realize how strongly you feel, and I see your point. But I am also sympathetic to the brick and mortar owners who are trying to eke out a living, and have sold maybe 50 counterfeit Hana's at a $ 500 profit, and maybe less, being sued for $ 100, 000. I know some of these people. They try to cater to different clientele with different spending powers. Not everyone can afford to pay $ 200 for an aluminium box.
But I understand and respect yout point of view.
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There are no patents involved, it's all about the trademarked logo and name.
You can't patent an aluminum box, you can try but the patent office would never approve it.
Copy & Paste Job
You can't patent an aluminum box, you can try but the patent office would never approve it.
Copy & Paste Job
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Y'all better be cool up in here and not be dissin' or the gang will find you like I just did and rough ya up again
Yes TMC's / proper MC's kick AYuss
. Good spreading the word my brother and happy Father's Day to the rest of you dads. One fine day I'll see you administering fresh squozen juice on demand to your bottomfed setups down in REOvil I hope
Yeah, I kinda figured there wouldnt be a patent involved without reading the complaint in its entirety. I wish Hana Modz found a way to stop the counterfeit of their logo without coming off as a bully, and I really hope the other brick and mortars would learn their lesson and ask the Chinese factories to manufacture aluminum boxes, without putting someone else's logo on them.
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I am sympathetic to all sides, except the Chinese couterfeiters. However, if you sell a counterfeit, which is actually stealing the money right from the mouth and table of Hana Modz, and nothing less than this, then you have exposure. Everyone knows they're counterfeit, and yet, we continue to encourage counterfeiting by selling them in the States. It's theft of intellectual property rights. That might not mean much to some, but if it was my I.P., I'd be really ticked as Hana Modz is. And they are totally within their rights to do this, and if retailers would stop selling counterfeits, there might not be couterfeits, and that is how it should be, imho, and according to the law. I don't think clones are evil, per se, but total counterfeits are. Just my humble opinion. Those that support the counterfeiters should beware, and should pay a price for breaking the law. The $150,000 award sought has no bearing on the actual damages of what $1,000, but punitive, or treble damages, would be three times that. The lawsuit could ask for a billion dollars, but that and the $150,000 have no correlation to what will be decided, and is a common tactic in most lawsuits, and means nothing. Again, people hear $150,000 and their brains turn off because it's excessive, instead of looking to the merits of the case, who did what, and who got hurt, and who needs to pay for what they did. That's all that matters. And yes I feel strongly about this, because without these protections, any property we own or create is subject to counterfeiting, and there will be no more innovating, the vast majority of which is done in Europe and the U.S. and ripped off by China. I have nothing against China either, but theft of I.P.R. is a crime, not a clever marketing ploy, someone needs to PAY for this, so we can discourage this practice, which is rampant in our industry. Why give the regulators anther reason to look hard at this industry. We should be policing ourselves, not ripping each other off. My two cents.
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Right this isn't about the patent, only that a patent has been applied for, pursuant to the pleadings. This is a trademark, likeness, name, and use case and is covered under the Sherman act, whether a trademark has been issued yet, or not. It's about who was in the marketplace first.
Right Bill and Maz. I apprenticed and served as a tool & die maker for years before moving on to a prototype fab shop. I can assure you that Hana Modz is not only looking at future profits/losses but also the costs of engineering and prototyping. Initial investments to market cost for that seemingly simple little box could easily run in the six digit figures.
These days it seems folks are buying commodities from china with clearer consciences than ever and this is the doom of the middle class in America. M2¢
Cig.
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I have always been against counterfeits, clones IMO are a great thing...without clones the mechanical market would be a joke. All these authentic mechanicals wouldn't exist without clones.
So 1K people buy a Stingray, could have been luck. 10K buy a Stingray clone, okay definitely a market I'm willing to get wet in.
Hana has the right to sue, they will not win the punitive (not real) damages they seek. How many mods do they have sitting in the shop unsold...None. Where are the damages?
They (Hana Modz) have only hurt their IP with this lawsuit, the majority of us vapors totally understand the case and side with the vaping community...not the modder, not China (IMO).
What I understand is the "lawyers" Hana Modz spoke to advised they seek punitive damages as they had nothing to lose and everything to gain by suing the vendors. What Hana Modz didn't realize is they should have asked the vaping community what should they do about the blatant theft of their trademarked (pending) logo and name prior to any legal action.
Anger is a terrible thing, it can make even the best person with angelic intentions act in a most unbecoming way. I feel for Hana but not because they lost money (they haven't), but because they in an angry fit listened to money grubbing lawyers and damaged their own image....potentially beyond repair.
This is the just the way I see it.
My guess is they will get punitive damages which is three times actual damages, as proven in court. If actual damages proven is zero, then they would get three times that. Clearly, though, they have the lost profits from the devices that other sold. that'll be easy to prove, and they may get treble those. We shall see. I just think the counterfeiting needs to stop. Too bad it may take lawsuits to do it, and I do feel for the vendors who get caught in the crosshair, but we all know it's wrong, they got caught, and they're just the unlucky recipient of these actions. Someone was gonna be the first.
I just cannot support what China is doing. Cloning is one thing, counterfeiting another....no more, no less. Kindest regards.
Y'all better be cool up in here and not be dissin' or the gang will find you like I just did and rough ya up again
Yes TMC's / proper MC's kick AYuss
One fine day I'll see you administering fresh squozen juice on demand to your bottomfed setups down in REOvil I hope
Thanks for all that .... kickin' supe. Needed a wakeup call today. And happy dad's day you too!
Kinda bashful to admit it but I was lookin' at one of those critters in the funny papers. I just can't seem to get over the squonky thing. I was long ago told not to be squeezin' down there in public.
What can I say, we all have our preferences.
Good luck and HFD.
I agree with you and everyone else, that counterfeiting must stop. I disagree withe Hana tactics however, and don't think it's cool, that they bypassed the cease and desist letter which is usuallly the first step, and are going after the guys who they estimate are in the worst position to engage in a costly lawsuit. This is clearly a tactical decision, and I agree with 54, that it will work against them in the long run.
I also don't think that they're product is innovative in any way. Innokin put a chip in an aluminum box two to three years ago, Hana was just the first one to put the DNA chip in an aluminium box. I realize my logic might be a little distorted, because of my disdain for some of the Philipino, Korean and American mod makers pricing decisions, but I see a distinction in the cooling effects of patent infringement and trademark infringement on innovation.
I am not sure that I agree with you that most of the innovation is done in Europe and America. At the elite level perhaps, but I consider that more refinement than true innovation. True innovation is creating the market, I.e.regulated batteries, cartomisers and clearomisers for mass use.
I find it beneficial to hear well made points from people with an opposing view point, so for that, sincere thanks.
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
I have no idea how much Hana Modz has been damaged by this, so I cannot make and informed decision one way or the other about their tactics. We agree that the counterfeiting must stop. Hopefully, this mess will be a move in the right direction, regardless of how anyone feels about the tactic.
I only vape the top APV's and top RTA's. They are all made in Europe and U.S. China was innovative for the first few years, but for several years, either their products were copies/rip-offs, or inferior, in many ways to the American and European latest gear. Since I have been vaping, the tip chips have been the Semovar, Provari and DNA chips, none originating in China. The top RTA's have been the Kayfun and Taifun, none originating in China. The Chinese chips are a good place to start vaping, but hardly state of the art. I just don't see it, Maz. I've owned over 20 China made devices, and they don't compare with the best stuff out there, imho. Now they have ripped off the DNA 20/30/100. That's not innovation, it's theft....again. I just feel strongly that this state of affairs needs to change. I do feel sorry for the guys being sued, but's it's not like everyone doesn't know that selling a counterfeit is wrong, illegal, and subject to punitive responses. Of all the people to blame here, Hana Modz is last on my list, are the one who have, in fact, been injured and stolen from, and placing the concerns of Chinese counterfeiters, and their American counter-parts ahead of the true victim, may be par for the course, happens all too often, but it's backwards to my way of thinking. I've said all I'm going to say about this now. Back to coils, wicks, juice and vaping. Happy Father's Day to one and all!
Fair enough Bill, we are getting close to the point of repeating ourselves. I think we all know where everyone stands on this issue.
One last word on innovation ; the Taifun and Kayfun are innovative products, I agree. The Semovar and Provari aren't in my opinion. They are improvements on the Vamo and other Chinese PV's and higher quality, but not a significant advancement in vape quality. I didn't get a better vape on my Provari than my Vamo, even though I paid six time as much for it !
I am currently in Seattle and will be for the next ten days. Back to coils and wicking issues when I get back home ! Too much time spent on counterfeiters and trademark trolls already
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