Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[Mazinny]

my go to setup for the pt :



29 awg 2.0 mm 10 wraps at around 2.0 ohms kgd

I don't need any more cotton than this, and no need for a flavor wick. No gurgling or dry hits between 9 and 12 watts. Mind you, i take 4-5 second drags and don't chain vape regularly.

 

[Jaime Bates]

KGD is a Japanese cosmetic company. It manufactures natural cotton pads sold in packs of 60. I believe originally designed fpr make-up removal and such. Since its discovery by vapers, it seems to be out of stock most of the time at the various on-line retail stores. It's a huge improvement on cotton balls for its superior taste ( subjective, i suppose ), superior permeability, and ease of use and repeatability.

!.3 ohms is too low a resistance for the pt coil in my opinion, Because of the long legs in a pt, too much of the power is used heating up the legs. You would ideally want a larger portion of the wire in the coil part than the legs. I don't think 1/16 and 28 g is a good combination in a pt for that and other reasons. You need a balance between surface area, speed of firing and coil to leg ratio. In my experience, 29 g kanthal and 5/64 works better. 30 g is good too.

I really dont get hot legs because if i did i would have burnt grommets, and which i do not. I mean maybe when i get paid I will order different kanthal. But I have 100 ft of 28 gauge. But burning up my cotton lately should not be happening that is the problem that I am having and i cant figure out why. Right now fresh cotton in there and new juice and the damn thing taste burnt i cant get rid of the taste i do not know what I did.

I am at work cant rebuild and start over i have enough cotton to rewick one more time here if need be so all help is needed i do not have a B&M where i can go buy a coil just to get through the day. But i cant stand this taste right now, and i really after 90 days do not want to go back to smoking.. So please help!

 

[Mazinny]

I really dont get hot legs because if i did i would have burnt grommets, and which i do not. I mean maybe when i get paid I will order different kanthal. But I have 100 ft of 28 gauge. But burning up my cotton lately should not be happening that is the problem that I am having and i cant figure out why. Right now fresh cotton in there and new juice and the damn thing taste burnt i cant get rid of the taste i do not know what I did.

I am at work cant rebuild and start over i have enough cotton to rewick one more time here if need be so all help is needed i do not have a B&M where i can go buy a coil just to get through the day. But i cant stand this taste right now, and i really after 90 days do not want to go back to smoking.. So please help!

I'm not talking about hot legs, efficiency really. Are you sure it's burnt cotton you are tasting, and not heated plastic ? How many watts do you vape at ? I am sure in the medium term you ( with the help of this thread ) will figure out where your issues are stemming from, but in the meantime, try to resist the cigarette urge, isn't there a bodega or 7 11 nearby, where you can buy a cigalike ?

 

[Jaime Bates]

I'm not talking about hot legs, efficiency really. Are you sure it's burnt cotton you are tasting, and not heated plastic ? How many watts do you vape at ? I am sure in the medium term you ( with the help of this thread ) will figure out where your issues are stemming from, but in the meantime, try to resist the cigarette urge, isn't there a bodega or 7 11 nearby, where you can buy a cigalike ?

It is not a burnt plastic taste, and after several attempts and finally figuring it out the chimney like cap was on too tight and keeping juice from getting to my flavor wick and one inside my coil. Honestly I use it on the MVP I start in the AM on 3.3 volts and as i wake up i bump it up to around 4.2-4.5 sometimes and then i may switch to watts it depends on my mood.

The center where the coil is in the cup and where my flavor wick is was dry and brown that was the problem.

I am impatient especially when i have not had any problems what so ever and now out of the blue i have issues i dont get it.

I was very frustrated thanks for all the comments and the help.

 

[MacTechVpr]

What is KGD? And where do u get it?
So all I did was twist the cotton that goes into the coil really well. And then twist a smaller piece to on top. Problem is by 6 last night it was giving me a burnt taste. I had the MVP set at 3.8-4.2 bumped it up when the battery was getting low.
Thats not the solution having to change the cotton wicking everyday is not good. Coil I have in there is my original coil I built. Reads at 1.3.

The ONly thing I came up with is that the juice is not getting into the cotton good enough. Idk just when I thought I found a solution bam something else.

Idk if this juice im using or what it is. My juice blend right now is 40pg/60vg the order im waiting for is 50/50 blend.
It amazes me that over 90 days I've been vaping and I still dont have it all figured out just when I thought I did.

Ill take any suggestions at this point.

I know this is going to sound somewhat contrarian but I get the impression you may be under-powering your build even at this lower resistance. The flow is getting constrained perhaps by inadequate vaporization. As Mazziny suggested and since we work with VV/VW a 10-turn 29 up in the 2Ω range should be good for you giving you the widest useful potential.

My thinking is to get you into a power range that's optimally productive for the tank, Nextel and your wind then we can deal with the peripheral issues. And my suggestion for you here would be for you to try 9-turns of your 28 AWG on 1/16". If nothing else this is going to give you more surface contact area on the wick and accordingly for potential of more vaporization of the flow that's taking place.

Before we go further here's a not so common voltage chart that includes your range of power and resistance. Per steam-engine 10-turns should yield about 1.5Ω. You may see from the chart this should yield a power range between about 9-11W. This is nominally the useful range before inadequate airflow restrains vaporization. If you then overheat the juice instead, viscosity rises and flooding may ensue.

I'd suggest try this brief experiment and keep variable power between 3.8-4.0 volts.

Let's get through this and to a terrific vape Jaime. Let's find the functional center, or as close as might be and go from there. Tap me on the shoulder I'm around this evening.

Good luck.



p.s. Check your p.m.'s.

 

[CMD-Ky]

MTV: Nice chart and dead on accurate. I had given up on charts because of the inadequate options presented and the need to interpolate (and general laziness to do the math myself). Nice reference point to take to the coil calculator. When I get the ReadyxWick right I love it. Fortunately, once you get it right it is a keeper for a long time. I have never perfected the threading, I have turned to rayon, generally; I try ceramic when my frustration tolerance is high. I find rayon wicks well, it doesn't swell, seems more heat tolerant with less native taste than cotton. And, man, is it cheap.

As always,

Thanks

 

[Mazinny]

I know this is going to sound somewhat contrarian but I get the impression you may be under-powering your build even at this lower resistance. The flow is getting constrained perhaps by inadequate vaporization. As Mazziny suggested and since we work with VV/VW a 10-turn 29 up in the 2Ω range should be good for you giving you the widest useful potential.

My thinking is to get you into a power range that's optimally productive for the tank, Nextel and your wind then we can deal with the peripheral issues. And my suggestion for you here would be for you to try 9-turns of your 28 AWG on 1/16". If nothing else this is going to give you more surface contact area on the wick and accordingly for potential of more vaporization of the flow that's taking place.

Before we go further here's a not so common voltage chart that includes your range of power and resistance. Per steam-engine 10-turns should yield about 1.5Ω. You may see from the chart this should yield a power range between about 9-11W. This is nominally the useful range before inadequate airflow restrains vaporization. If you then overheat the juice instead, viscosity rises and flooding may ensue.

I'd suggest try this brief experiment and keep variable power between 3.8-4.0 volts.

Let's get through this and to a terrific vape Jaime. Let's find the functional center, or as close as might be and go from there. Tap me on the shoulder I'm around this evening.

Good luck.



p.s. Check your p.m.'s.

Good point re air flow Mac, don't know if Jaime uses the aerotank base or not. I do, on all my pt variants. So many different variables contribute to a good vape. You either luck into it like me, or approach all of them methodically the way you do. Different routes, i suppose !

 

[MacTechVpr]

Good point re air flow Mac, don't know if Jaime uses the aerotank base or not. I do, on all my pt variants. So many different variables contribute to a good vape. You either luck into it like me, or approach all of them methodically the way you do. Different routes, i suppose !

Did ask her that today maz, got a chance to chat. And I extend that offer to any and all of you if you get in a bind. Lord knows I do as much as I spout off here. We all needa lifeline sooner or later. Don't know maz how systematic you are but at the end of the day it's all about balancing the geometry, symmetry. May seem easier but if we're going to make scrambled eggs let's try not to break 'em. They fit better on that muffin when we don't. Tastier too! But hey, that's just my opinion.



Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

MTV: Nice chart and dead on accurate. I had given up on charts because of the inadequate options presented and the need to interpolate (and general laziness to do the math myself). Nice reference point to take to the coil calculator. When I get the ReadyxWick right I love it. Fortunately, once you get it right it is a keeper for a long time. I have never perfected the threading, I have turned to rayon, generally; I try ceramic when my frustration tolerance is high. I find rayon wicks well, it doesn't swell, seems more heat tolerant with less native taste than cotton. And, man, is it cheap.

As always,

Thanks

Well I don't know about all that. But we're getting closer cmd. I have my own long hand method for calculating wire resistance. It's not always clear how others including programs do it…whether they consider actual wire pitch or axis or compute the actual diagonal turn offset. I try to sort this all out but I'm no mathematician. I'm still doing comparisons between my own records which are a bit more substantial than what I've posted here and steam-engine results. I need to backtrack and redo some of those builds. I also see others building t.m.c.'s quite neatly getting different results. I don't know if the fault is calculation or variations in the test accessories we're using. If there's a lack of adhesion, there will be variations. I've had a few trusty legacy cargo-meters that have been dead on consistent with each other and tested with a calibrated fluke when I got 'em. Recently I got four "USA made" which are supposedly very accurate (both same spec, .1%) and the latter are consistently ~.04Ω higher. So we keep workin' the problem.

Nextel XC-132 into 5/64" is child's play. Unfortunately not the best deflection and too wide for the PT2. Even as it can go in the PT3/DC slots I'd still opt for a bit more compression of the wick. But most days coaxing it into a .07" drill blank (#50 wire gauge, or 3/43" screwdriver) is simple. It tends to spread on ya, as I've mentioned elsewhere, if the wick is left out in the open to absorb moisture. I've lost as much as a couple of inches having forgotten to seal it up. So I don't think it's you cmd. I also absentmindedly forget on occasion to cut the tip on a diagonal 30-45 deg and find myself struggling before I realize. But much harder, I also still do some testing with silica and Eko using the "cellophane" method.

I would agree that Nextel is a blessing if we can't be rewicking constantly…or like me…have to have five kinds of tobacco and other flavors at easy reach. It's a curse I tell ya, I've got to leave the house with three or four drippers (I do, no joke).

I really, really envy Bill. IF THERE COULD BE JUST ONE…!!!

Good luck cmd.

 

[Mazinny]

Did ask her that today maz, got a chance to chat. And I extend that offer to any and all of you if you get in a bind. Lord knows I do as much as I spout off here. We all needa lifeline sooner or later. Don't know maz how systematic you are but at the end of the day it's all about balancing the geometry, symmetry. May seem easier but if we're going to make scrambled eggs let's try not to break 'em. They fit better on that muffin when we don't. Tastier too! But hey, that's just my opinion.



Good luck.

Mac, i could be pretty systematic when it comes to the how questions. When i first ordered kanthal, it was in anticipation of the arrival of a few kfl and dripper clones. Then i ran across this thread and decided to give a go rebuilding my pt's which i had given up on, and moved to Innokin clearos which have better stock coils.

I read every post on this thread, and asked enough questions to get quite proficient by the time my rda's and rta's got here from China ! Luckily, i never had issues wicking with cotton. Either it came naturally to me, or my style of vaping doesn't cause issues.

When it comes to the why questions though, i don't spend nearly as much time as you or Cig do, for example. I don't really get involved with the science and the theoretical aspects.

Just to give an example, i use a t.m.c. for eighty percent of my liquids. For the gunkier NET's though ( Mountain Oak Vapors, Ahlusion aro's etc... ). i go with a non-contact coil. I'm really not too worried about the theoretical superiority of the builds. I go with what works for me and my style of vaping.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Mac, i could be pretty systematic when it comes to the how questions. When i first ordered kanthal, it was in anticipation of the arrival of a few kfl and dripper clones. Then i ran across this thread and decided to give a go rebuilding my pt's which i had given up on, and moved to Innokin clearos which have better stock coils.

I read every post on this thread, and asked enough questions to get quite proficient by the time my rda's and rta's got here from China ! Luckily, i never had issues wicking with cotton. Either it came naturally to me, or my style of vaping doesn't cause issues.

When it comes to the why questions though, i don't spend nearly as much time as you or Cig do, for example. I don't really get involved with the science and the theoretical aspects.

Just to give an example, i use a t.m.c. for eighty percent of my liquids. For the gunkier NET's though ( Mountain Oak Vapors, Ahlusion aro's etc... ). i go with a non-contact coil. I'm really not too worried about the theoretical superiority of the builds. I go with what works for me and my style of vaping.

Gotcha, and I kind of do too and in far more variety than I write here. Too busy trying to get this train to the station, lol; but, all theory aside, no play makes for a very dull Mac. So we gotta feed the soul too.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Congratz Jaime!

 

[AquaLung22]

Tried rayon for the first time as wick, in my aerotank's microcoil. It has been working very well, and its a lot easier to install compared to cotton balls.

It contracts a bit when coming in contact with juice, instead of swelling up like cotton does.
.... So I roll this "Cellu-Cotton" real tight and squeeze a bit more of it through the coil than I'm used to, and wicks great. It has a good a good bit of tension when pulling it through, where as regular cotton has little to no tension when sliding through (lol).

Anyways, I'm happy with its performance. Great vapor; can't tell if flavor is better than cotton yet, but it rocks. And I can get at least a day longer without changing the wick out, I changed it after 3 days but could have maybe waited longer (darker golden juice).
.... and it's cheap too!! $11 got me a box that will last me a lifetime.

But yes Mac I'm still very interested in trying Nextel, it's just not super available or cheap so Ive been holding off. I reallllyy gotta grab some KGD too!

 

[MacTechVpr]

Tried rayon for the first time as wick, in my aerotank's microcoil. It has been working very well, and its a lot easier to install compared to cotton balls.

It contracts a bit when coming in contact with juice, instead of swelling up like cotton does.
.... So I roll this "Cellu-Cotton" real tight and squeeze a bit more of it through the coil than I'm used to, and wicks great. It has a good a good bit of tension when pulling it through, where as regular cotton has little to no tension when sliding through (lol).

Anyways, I'm happy with its performance. Great vapor; can't tell if flavor is better than cotton yet, but it rocks. And I can get at least a day longer without changing the wick out, I changed it after 3 days but could have maybe waited longer (darker golden juice).
.... and it's cheap too!! $11 got me a box that will last me a lifetime.

But yes Mac I'm still very interested in trying Nextel, it's just not super available or cheap so Ive been holding off. I reallllyy gotta grab some KGD too!

True that, at least some of your observations spot on. It does have very good initial flow; and, compacts with saturation. Cotton does too. Just takes a bit longer. It's how it retains that's different. A lot different. And that's what both distinguishes it and makes it optimal for some juices not others. I've written a bit about this and continue to test those attributes.

Nextel in my opinion can't be beat except by cotton but there's a rub…within a very narrow window of time. And if you have the time for that you're in heaven. If not practical solutions are unavoidable. That means synthetic for most of us.

I enjoy them all!



Good luck.

 

[Mazinny]

True that, at least some of your observations spot on. It does have very good initial flow; and, compacts with saturation. Cotton does too. Just takes a bit longer. It's how it retains that's different. A lot different. And that's what both distinguishes it and makes it optimal for some juices not others. I've written a bit about this and continue to test those attributes.

Nextel in my opinion can't be beat except by cotton but there's a rub…within a very narrow window of time. And if you have the time for that you're in heaven. If not practical solutions are unavoidable. That means synthetic for most of us.

I enjoy them all!



Good luck.

Mac. how does Nextel handle NET's ? What is the gunkiest NET you have used with Nextel ? Even with a wider diameter coil, i re-wick after every tank with some of my NET's ( depending on the extraction method used and the level of filtering ). Not because i absolutely have to, but why let performance levels drop when kgd is so cheap and also easy to re-wick. That would get cost-prohibitive with Nextel. I suppose washing and dry-burning could be done, but how effective is that in removing the particulates accumulated with prolonged use.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Mac. how does Nextel handle NET's ? What is the gunkiest NET you have used with Nextel ? Even with a wider diameter coil, i re-wick after every tank with some of my NET's ( depending on the extraction method used and the level of filtering ). Not because i absolutely have to, but why let performance levels drop when kgd is so cheap and also easy to re-wick. That would get cost-prohibitive with Nextel. I suppose washing and dry-burning could be done, but how effective is that in removing the particulates accumulated with prolonged use.

I experimented with a dozen+ NET's early on in my adventures. Everything I could find, sample or scarf. But that was before I started to formalize a KPT test methodology. I didn't keep much of a record but was using Nextel from Big Tex at the time. My vendor/source rec's are huge but not much there and I'm awful at remembering names. I do recall I got a bunch of stuff from naturally-extracted when they kicked off. Then several alternatives. Didn't work with them enough for it to be significant. Then when TA became popular I attempted as much DIY as I had time for. In the end, I can tell you this was the reason I pretty much hung it up for cotton on the KPT and ultimately Nextel as well for NET's. And suspended my enthusiasm for the same reasons as you maz, cost prohibitive. So my study became focused on what was more likely doable for the average person. Johnson Creek Red Oak became the candidate of choice for testing the plausible extremes because its pure VG formulation presented the best flow characteristics. That testing has yielded the potential to go out as much as two weeks with Nextel.

These days inspired by cigatron I'm back at it doing some moderate comparison testing between tensioned spaced winds and t.m.c.'s. Particularly with variations of Nude Nic's TA and TFA RY4 Double on top producing the closest variations to the JCROTC I favor and everyone I allow to sample loves (and that can be made to run over a week before a wash). I do not vape straight Tenn. C. Lately I'm getting some dripper results which are promising, i.e lasting more than 2-3 days. But I've yet to introduce my preferred final flavor additives. So we'll see. I'm not suggesting a special PT formulation but a working high pigment example might be a good signpost to flavors or blends that may run satisfactorily. At least thats my thinking on natural, Nextel and t.m.c.'s.

Again something else that's going to seem contrarian, I'm thinking of doing a serious exam to breaking in Nextel and cotton with straight vg. I've had it happen too often that once I get an install vacating efficiently (to dry cotton, or near) it seems to perform better thereafter. When I've switched over from pure VG juices that flow very well even if dense and undiluted, again an example the product from The Vapor Room comes to mind, very thick and viscous pure VG. It seems to set the tone for better flow. And I've been able to enjoy JCROTC very liberally when I've switched off from it. Been able to go back and forth with it [and TVRRY4] and to use blends closer to the unadulterated JC product.

Getting back to your saturation question I'd say washing out fixed pigment aggregate isn't doable. A certain increasing percentage is retained until you reach a flow or performance return that's just not satisfying regardless of torching. It's far better with the looser weave for 116 however. I'm running Boba's now on a zRDA dual wick I posted on ECF over a month back quite successfully after a weekly washing, straight at 6mg and a 50% vg dilution of 12mg. Both quite well. Once it saturates though in my experience there's no turning back. But let me go back to vg again. I have been running tests now two months, a variation of my cleaning procedure, where I go to half tank pure vg fills when I start detecting color change. Surprisingly, I have been able to extend coil life doing this having foregone washing. It's not clear to me the mechanism as these same coils do not seem to release all the pigment in a wash cycle. But they appear to do so during vaporization. I'm not saying this is the answer for everyone. But the result is interesting. And agreeable, as a nice pause to experience the subtleties of a juice when what you normally crave is its intensity.

Just some thoughts maz. Nextel has some unique properties that still merit exploration.

Good luck.

 

[Mazinny]

I experimented with a dozen+ NET's early on in my adventures. Everything I could find, sample or scarf. But that was before I started to formalize a KPT test methodology. I didn't keep much of a record but was using Nextel from Big Tex at the time. My vendor/source rec's are huge but not much there and I'm awful at remembering names. I do recall I got a bunch of stuff from naturally-extracted when they kicked off. Then several alternatives. Didn't work with them enough for it to be significant. Then when TA became popular I attempted as much DIY as I had time for. In the end, I can tell you this was the reason I pretty much hung it up for cotton on the KPT and ultimately Nextel as well for NET's. And suspended my enthusiasm for the same reasons as you maz, cost prohibitive. So my study became focused on what was more likely doable for the average person. Johnson Creek Red Oak became the candidate of choice for testing the plausible extremes because its pure VG formulation presented the best flow characteristics. That testing has yielded the potential to go out as much as two weeks with Nextel.

These days inspired by cigatron I'm back at it doing some moderate comparison testing between tensioned spaced winds and t.m.c.'s. Particularly with variations of Nude Nic's TA and TFA RY4 Double on top producing the closest variations to the JCROTC I favor and everyone I allow to sample loves (and that can be made to run over a week before a wash). I do not vape straight Tenn. C. Lately I'm getting some dripper results which are promising, i.e lasting more than 2-3 days. But I've yet to introduce my preferred final flavor additives. So we'll see. I'm not suggesting a special PT formulation but a working high pigment example might be a good signpost to flavors or blends that may run satisfactorily. At least thats my thinking on natural, Nextel and t.m.c.'s.

Again something else that's going to seem contrarian, I'm thinking of doing a serious exam to breaking in Nextel and cotton with straight vg. I've had it happen too often that once I get an install vacating efficiently (to dry cotton, or near) it seems to perform better thereafter. When I've switched over from pure VG juices that flow very well even if dense and undiluted, again an example the product from The Vapor Room comes to mind, very thick and viscous pure VG. It seems to set the tone for better flow. And I've been able to enjoy JCROTC very liberally when I've switched off from it. Been able to go back and forth with it [and TVRRY4] and to use blends closer to the unadulterated JC product.

Getting back to your saturation question I'd say washing out fixed pigment aggregate isn't doable. A certain increasing percentage is retained until you reach a flow or performance return that's just not satisfying regardless of torching. It's far better with the looser weave for 116 however. I'm running Boba's now on a zRDA dual wick I posted on ECF over a month back quite successfully after a weekly washing, straight at 6mg and a 50% vg dilution of 12mg. Both quite well. Once it saturates though in my experience there's no turning back. But let me go back to vg again. I have been running tests now two months, a variation of my cleaning procedure, where I go to half tank pure vg fills when I start detecting color change. Surprisingly, I have been able to extend coil life doing this having foregone washing. It's not clear to me the mechanism as these same coils do not seem to release all the pigment in a wash cycle. But they appear to do so during vaporization. I'm not saying this is the answer for everyone. But the result is interesting. And agreeable, as a nice pause to experience the subtleties of a juice when what you normally crave is its intensity.

Just some thoughts maz. Nextel has some unique properties that still merit exploration.

Good luck.

Mac, thanks for the reply. You brought up a lot of points.

- I'm not sure that the pigmentation you talk about is the same as particulate residue from tobacco extraction.
- I have very limited experience with TA, although i believe Hangsen tobacco is made from TA and i did vape some of that, and it doesn't gunk the wick and coil the same way some other extraction methods do.
- Naturally Extracted Tobacco extracts their tobacco through maceration ( both cold and heat assisted ) and their tobacco juice are medium-gunkers.
- All extractions are not equally unkind to coils and wick. Steam distilled extractions are very clean, CO2 distilled, not so much for example.
- Spaced coils do offer better vape time with the gunkiest extracts in my experience. I use them for the macerated extracts that have not been filtered down to 2.5 microns for example.

At some point i will experiment with Nextel, and i will hit you up with recommendations ! In the mean-time, my pt grommets are pretty badly bruised and i want to put in an order with Lightning Vapes. Which is easier to work with, silicone or rubber ?

Thanks.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Mac, thanks for the reply. You brought up a lot of points.

- I'm not sure that the pigmentation you talk about is the same as particulate residue from tobacco extraction.
- I have very limited experience with TA, although i believe Hangsen tobacco is made from TA and i did vape some of that, and it doesn't gunk the wick and coil the same way some other extraction methods do.
- Naturally Extracted Tobacco extracts their tobacco through maceration ( both cold and heat assisted ) and their tobacco juice are medium-gunkers.
- All extractions are not equally unkind to coils and wick. Steam distilled extractions are very clean, CO2 distilled, not so much for example.
- Spaced coils do offer better vape time with the gunkiest extracts in my experience. I use them for the macerated extracts that have not been filtered down to 2.5 microns for example.

At some point i will experiment with Nextel, and i will hit you up with recommendations ! In the mean-time, my pt grommets are pretty badly bruised and i want to put in an order with Lightning Vapes. Which is easier to work with, silicone or rubber ?

Thanks.

Last first, be very cautious and take your termination style into consideration as well as gauge. Silicone grommets are extremely dicey. Worthless for anything above 32awg as way to slippery to present an adequate grip surface for termination. They were introduced, it's my strong belief, purposefully for single use and to discourage rebuilding. They predictably slip with pin rotation when vertical set of the grommet (the neg) and the pin (pos) is used producing both skew and push up (high end turns). If you rely on firm tension of the legs to secure your coil set the leads will relax (slip) after a silicone set; and, if the leads are unbalanced introduce longitudinal skey (angular skew of the turns). Vertical leg sets with soft silicone (vs. perpendicular, exit of rotation) are roulette. All these things affect resistance and may break the alumina surface bond, i.e. no microcoil. Just a few observations.

If you're hand winding, for those of you listening, it don't matter none…you're gonna short regardless. I've taken to encourage the wanna be cloud blowers to go right on ahead and put 12-turn hand winds into a PT. The faster they keep on shorting the sooner they'll realize how important properly formed geometry is to electronics and start payin' attention to the wonderful stuff you guys churn out like popcorn.

I've spoken variously to Sean at LV confirming that the firm, or what he refers to as hard grommets are outstanding. They're also silicone but a a different hardness. In fact, harder than the original PT1 I'd say by at least 10% and perhaps just a tad too much. Not really though. If you'd had the experience of an original unassembled PT1 you'd see that they are close, in hardness with LV's being firmer. This is the grommet you should be using for 30AWG and thicker. His pins are also superior to factory and recommended as they are slightly thicker than factory and absolutely on spec. Accordingly, once you're set…you're really set.

Thanks for your roundup description on NET extraction methods. I added it as the first link in my NET file as a timesaver. There are various methods of extraction for TA as well which is essentially the base for finished NET's. And while it was prohibitive for the extensive testing I was doing early on it's become vital for this flavor lover of late to return to my favorite, tobacco. I love them all. And I'm trying to get to the bourbon's like MVJ's Borkum Riff.

Do get to the TA's or extracted concentrates because this will increase the probability of dialing up the scalable solution you need to go from tank to dripper. Far to expensive and time consuming if you're ordering and re-ordering finished juices. I'm taking one maker at a time in an ordered fashion looking for that cross-device solution. Something I can share time in a Kay and a Raiju. I'm finding it easier than balancing blends of final mixes. Many NET makers are offering DIY solutions. Far more than last year.

Good luck.



p.s. Pigmentation is the culprit and may have color or not. Although I do believe the darker solids are more visible precisely because of the propensity for their molecules to cluster.

 

[Mazinny]

Last first, be very cautious and take your termination style into consideration as well as gauge. Silicone grommets are extremely dicey. Worthless for anything above 32awg as way to slippery to present an adequate grip surface for termination. They were introduced, it's my strong belief, purposefully for single use and to discourage rebuilding. They predictably slip with pin rotation when vertical set of the grommet (the neg) and the pin (pos) is used producing both skew and push up (high end turns). If you rely on firm tension of the legs to secure your coil set the leads will relax (slip) after a silicone set; and, if the leads are unbalanced introduce longitudinal skey (angular skew of the turns). Vertical leg sets with soft silicone (vs. perpendicular, exit of rotation) are roulette. All these things affect resistance and may break the alumina surface bond, i.e. no microcoil. Just a few observations.

If you're hand winding, for those of you listening, it don't matter none…you're gonna short regardless. I've taken to encourage the wanna be cloud blowers to go right on ahead and put 12-turn hand winds into a PT. The faster they keep on shorting the sooner they'll realize how important properly formed geometry is to electronics and start payin' attention to the wonderful stuff you guys churn out like popcorn.

I've spoken variously to Sean at LV confirming that the firm, or what he refers to as hard grommets are outstanding. They're also silicone but a a different hardness. In fact, harder than the original PT1 I'd say by at least 10% and perhaps just a tad too much. Not really though. If you'd had the experience of an original unassembled PT1 you'd see that they are close, in hardness with LV's being firmer. This is the grommet you should be using for 30AWG and thicker. His pins are also superior to factory and recommended as they are slightly thicker than factory and absolutely on spec. Accordingly, once you're set…you're really set.

Thanks for your roundup description on NET extraction methods. I added it as the first link in my NET file as a timesaver. There are various methods of extraction for TA as well which is essentially the base for finished NET's. And while it was prohibitive for the extensive testing I was doing early on it's become vital for this flavor lover of late to return to my favorite, tobacco. I love them all. And I'm trying to get to the bourbon's like MVJ's Borkum Riff.

Do get to the TA's or extracted concentrates because this will increase the probability of dialing up the scalable solution you need to go from tank to dripper. Far to expensive and time consuming if you're ordering and re-ordering finished juices. I'm taking one maker at a time in an ordered fashion looking for that cross-device solution. Something I can share time in a Kay and a Raiju. I'm finding it easier than balancing blends of final mixes. Many NET makers are offering DIY solutions. Far more than last year.

Good luck.



p.s. Pigmentation is the culprit and may have color or not. Although I do believe the darker solids are more visible precisely because of the propensity for their molecules to cluster.

Mac, here's a more complete description for your file :

NET
Natural Extracted Tobacco, or---more correctly---Extracted Natural Tobacco.
NETs are usually made from macerations of chopped or ground tobacco, meaning suspensions in PG, VG, or a mix of those two base liquids, that are steeped (cold-process) or cooked (heat-assisted), then filtered. Occasionally small amounts of PGA (pure grain alcohol) are added to the suspension/maceration.

Cold-Process macerations take much longer. The maceration steeps at room temperature from a week or two up to two months before filtering. The flavor extracted from a cold-process maceration is often “softer” and slightly more nuanced.

Heat-Assisted macerations take only a day or two to make. The suspension/maceration is simmered over low heat for some number of hours, then allowed to cool before being filtered. The flavor produced by heat-assisted extractions tends to be more potent and intense, but may sacrifice some subtlety.

Other methods for extraction include Steam-Distilled (SD), Alcohol-based, and Carbon Dioxide Gas (CO2).

NETs produce copious quantities of extract from very small amounts of tobacco. A maceration using 15 grams of natural tobacco (less than a single pack of cigarettes) yields enough extract to make 500-800mls of NET eliquid.



Tobacco Absolute
Tobacco Absolute (TA) is a commercial product made by various manufacturers (most famously in Bulgaria) that was used originally in the perfume industry. Natural tobacco is distilled or extracted into an essential oil carried as a suspension in an alcohol base. TA is super-super-concentrated and must be significantly diluted (e.g., 1:100 or more) for use in flavoring eliquids.



Tobacco Extract
The commercial product called Tobacco Extract (TE) is the same essential oil of TA suspended in a base of PG rather than alcohol. Usually sold in diluted form, TE is still very concentrated.

Used very sparingly and with restraint, TA/TE adds a smoky component to eliquids that is reminiscent of burning tobacco. Using a little more imparts to eliquids a “dirty ash tray” flavor that some vapers (who are usually ex-smokers) actually like. Using too much, however, ruins the flavor of the juice.


I actually have MVJ Borkum Riff Bourbon on its way to me from a trade ! Diane's juices from MVJ are actually some of the cleanest NET's around. She is one of the vendors that sells the DIY extracts you were talking about. Love the option of using the percentage of extract that best suits my taste, and it works out a lot cheaper than buying the finished juice, as an added bonus.

You know, in all those years burning tobacco, i didn't really enjoy and appreciate it in all its diversity, complexity and nuance, and in a couple of short years vaping, i have been exposed to all these wonderful varieties from the mild and smooth cavendishes to the nutty burleys, the smokey and spicy Latakia's and Perique, the sweeter virginia's etc .... not to mention all the extracted cigars available ... and all the combinations possible !

Like you, i like them all ! All the money saved by not chasingl the endless avalanche of new drippers, mechanicals and turbo charged 5000 watt devices coming out weekly, has afforded me the opportunity to try a large sample of them, and i am loving every minute of it ! Learning to build a proper coil, thanks largely to you, has saved me lots as well !

I will be ordering the hard or firm silicone grommets. To confirm, that's what they call 'rubber' on the site ?

 

[chanelvaps]

where do you order these grommets from?

Mac, here's a more complete description for your file :

NET
Natural Extracted Tobacco, or---more correctly---Extracted Natural Tobacco.
NETs are usually made from macerations of chopped or ground tobacco, meaning suspensions in PG, VG, or a mix of those two base liquids, that are steeped (cold-process) or cooked (heat-assisted), then filtered. Occasionally small amounts of PGA (pure grain alcohol) are added to the suspension/maceration.

Cold-Process macerations take much longer. The maceration steeps at room temperature from a week or two up to two months before filtering. The flavor extracted from a cold-process maceration is often “softer” and slightly more nuanced.

Heat-Assisted macerations take only a day or two to make. The suspension/maceration is simmered over low heat for some number of hours, then allowed to cool before being filtered. The flavor produced by heat-assisted extractions tends to be more potent and intense, but may sacrifice some subtlety.

Other methods for extraction include Steam-Distilled (SD), Alcohol-based, and Carbon Dioxide Gas (CO2).

NETs produce copious quantities of extract from very small amounts of tobacco. A maceration using 15 grams of natural tobacco (less than a single pack of cigarettes) yields enough extract to make 500-800mls of NET eliquid.



Tobacco Absolute
Tobacco Absolute (TA) is a commercial product made by various manufacturers (most famously in Bulgaria) that was used originally in the perfume industry. Natural tobacco is distilled or extracted into an essential oil carried as a suspension in an alcohol base. TA is super-super-concentrated and must be significantly diluted (e.g., 1:100 or more) for use in flavoring eliquids.



Tobacco Extract
The commercial product called Tobacco Extract (TE) is the same essential oil of TA suspended in a base of PG rather than alcohol. Usually sold in diluted form, TE is still very concentrated.

Used very sparingly and with restraint, TA/TE adds a smoky component to eliquids that is reminiscent of burning tobacco. Using a little more imparts to eliquids a “dirty ash tray” flavor that some vapers (who are usually ex-smokers) actually like. Using too much, however, ruins the flavor of the juice.


I actually have MVJ Borkum Riff Bourbon on its way to me from a trade ! Diane's juices from MVJ are actually some of the cleanest NET's around. She is one of the vendors that sells the DIY extracts you were talking about. Love the option of using the percentage of extract that best suits my taste, and it works out a lot cheaper than buying the finished juice, as an added bonus.

You know, in all those years burning tobacco, i didn't really enjoy and appreciate it in all its diversity, complexity and nuance, and in a couple of short years vaping, i have been exposed to all these wonderful varieties from the mild and smooth cavendishes to the nutty burleys, the smokey and spicy Latakia's and Perique, the sweeter virginia's etc .... not to mention all the extracted cigars available ... and all the combinations possible !

Like you, i like them all ! All the money saved by not chasingl the endless avalanche of new drippers, mechanicals and turbo charged 5000 watt devices coming out weekly, has afforded me the opportunity to try a large sample of them, and i am loving every minute of it ! Learning to build a proper coil, thanks largely to you, has saved me lots as well !

I will be ordering the hard or firm silicone grommets. To confirm, that's what they call 'rubber' on the site ?