Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

What is an Eye ?

Btw, i have been enjoying the Taifun clone i bought based on your recommendation, a lot more than my kayfun clones. Yeah, i know you probably never recommend buying a clone, but just can't get myself to spend upward of $ 100 for an atomizer !

Anyway, it might just be that the quality of the tai clone is better than my kay clones, but i get better flavor, and a lot better vapor. The throat hit is milder than the kayfun's though.

Yes, there was a time when I was a purist, and believed in supporting our originators, and I still do. But, I do both. I have 2 authentic GT's and five clones now. I could never justify seven originals! The Eye is also made by Taifun, so it matches the GT's perfectly. It's a VW, VV, Variable amperage/current APV, 24 Watts, .7 ohms, 23 mm tube device. Very nice, my new favorite. They are available at Smokerstore.de.

 

[chanelvaps]

Love Love LOVe the Taifun. I have two. I will have to check out this "eye"

Yes, there was a time when I was a purist, and believed in supporting our originators, and I still do. But, I do both. I have 2 authentic GT's and five clones now. I could never justify seven originals! The Eye is also made by Taifun, so it matches the GT's perfectly. It's a VW, VV, Variable amperage/current APV, 24 Watts, .7 ohms, 23 mm tube device. Very nice, my new favorite. They are available at Smokerstore.de.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Yes, there was a time when I was a purist, and believed in supporting our originators, and I still do. But, I do both. I have 2 authentic GT's and five clones now. I could never justify seven originals! The Eye is also made by Taifun, so it matches the GT's perfectly. It's a VW, VV, Variable amperage/current APV, 24 Watts, .7 ohms, 23 mm tube device. Very nice, my new favorite. They are available at Smokerstore.de.

I still have not built out may Kay's or Aqua's but I do like the 23's. Just pulled out some of my Caravella clones and topped 'em with some Patriots. You got a purdy one there.

Good luck.

 

[crg31953]

Yes MVS has a very complete representation of the Kanger line. And I visit them regularly but it was not up the last time I checked recently (or I missed it). The Kanger Airflow Control 3.0 - Large is different from my other known source and version KangerTech Stainless Steel Aerotank Base

Dang you CRG, stop the Dremel's, now I'll have to get 'em all.

I do like to clean big hole look of the orig; the new one looks well, scary big. Just what are these Kanger whizz-winders up to??? Are they.going sub-ohm with their forthcoming tri-coil I presume? Not a joke!

I'm rushin' right out to try the KANGER AEROTANK TURBO TWO DUAL COIL CLEAROMIZER and buy a whole lotta bunches of these here KANGER AEROTANK V2 / MEGA / GIANT DUAL COIL SUB OHM REPLACEMENT COIL HEADS don'tcha know.

Honestly, what kind of ...... do they take us for on the other side of the planet. And I AM GONNA RANT HERE…aren't we tired yet of B&M's all over the country buying into this miracle of science and ingenuity and telling us this is the best, greatest most splendiferous vape we can ever possibly enjoy? While these rotten shorting miswound fishing knots of an excuse for a wind dry hit us all the night and day?

Aren't you glad you found this thread yet?



Good luck and vape on!

Heck, I didn't even know there was a V3 air flow control!
I guess it's just cuz I'm happy with the V2.
As far as Kanger dual coil sub ohm from the factory, yech! I'll stick with building my PT2s with a single coil!
I'll put my builds up against any of the current Kanger coils!

And yes I'm glad

From A Galaxy Far Away

 

[MacTechVpr]

Heck, I didn't even know there was a V3 air flow control!
I guess it's just cuz I'm happy with the V2.
As far as Kanger dual coil sub ohm from the factory, yech! I'll stick with building my PT2s with a single coil!
I'll put my builds up against any of the current Kanger coils!

And yes I'm glad 

From A Galaxy Far Away

Well so did Rip Trippers [agree with you] in his video review, to his credit when Kanger, to be lauded for their great tank designs, rolled out their poor excuse of an insulated non-res leg dual-coil to mask the pitiful shorting performance of their singles (that's where the above pic's were sourced). Of course they shorted like mad because they'd snookered us into buying these godawful slippery slimy silicone grommets. I spent months trying to figure out why an extremely well thought out and researched ergonomic study of rebuilding process, which I will admit to you all here was not an inexpensive proposition to undertake, was suddenly not yielding consistent results. Even demonstrating these variations to a number of interns has been expensive in time and capital.

It is worrisome, all this busy-ness, and when business endeavors like this you can be damned sure there's a purpose to it. But it ain't no 50-year plan that's comin'. It's around the corner. Look out retailers just what you're buyin' into. Been trying to warn you all.

Good luck with that.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Likewise, I was floundering around until I ran across MTV's writing.

So with some major assitance from Mac I have officially fixed my coil issues. So far vaped all night and most of today on the same cotton and still have great flavor no burnt taste and it is fantastic. It has only taken me a week to work out the kinks if you will, but I will say as a new vaper being able to come on here and have people who are willing to help is great. I do not know what i would have done with out MAC or ECF thanks!

 

[MacTechVpr]

My blog entry today. PIF, help me bring new vapors on board.

What is a tensioned micro coil?

Enjoy and good luck.

 

[Mazinny]

here's a great deal, if you need the entire coil assembly unit, and not just the grommets :

http://www.smartvapes.com/Kanger-Protank-Replacement-Coils-50ct-p/ptankrep10.htm?Click=1624

works out to seventy cents each if you but 50. Free shipping.

 

[crg31953]

here's a great deal, if you need the entire coil assembly unit, and not just the grommets :

http://www.smartvapes.com/Kanger-Protank-Replacement-Coils-50ct-p/ptankrep10.htm?Click=1624

works out to seventy cents each if you but 50. Free shipping.

No offense meant here at all,

The last time I bought new Kanger ProTank coils I just bought them for parts. Never used a one of them, broke them down threw out the wicks and coils and put the rest in my parts stash.

You are far better off rebuilding than buying originals IMHO. Just saying.

 

[Mazinny]

No offense meant here at all,

The last time I bought new Kanger ProTank coils I just bought them for parts. Never used a one of them, broke them down threw out the wicks and coils and put the rest in my parts stash.

You are far better off rebuilding than buying originals IMHO. Just saying.

none taken, that's what i meant, for parts ! this is a pt re-build thread ! at seventy cents each and free shipping, it works out cheaper than Lightning Vapes for the entire coil head assembly.

 

[MacTechVpr]

none taken, that's what i meant, for parts ! this is a pt re-build thread ! at seventy cents each and free shipping, it works out cheaper than Lightning Vapes for the entire coil head assembly.

True that, but so you know, LV's supply is a better material quality, particularly pins and grommets, and precision spec than the Kanger's per my appraisal and build of hundreds. A note though that the top cap (chimney) is tight, almost a press fit, and the first use will probably require a needle nose to set it. Your find is indubitably a good buy for the cost conscious however. Thanks Maz.



Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Yes, there was a time when I was a purist, and believed in supporting our originators, and I still do. But, I do both. I have 2 authentic GT's and five clones now. I could never justify seven originals! The Eye is also made by Taifun, so it matches the GT's perfectly. It's a VW, VV, Variable amperage/current APV, 24 Watts, .7 ohms, 23 mm tube device. Very nice, my new favorite. They are available at Smokerstore.de.

How dare you!???

 

[clnire]

True that, but so you know, LV's supply is a better material quality, particularly pins and grommets, and precision spec than the Kanger's per my appraisal and build of hundreds. A note though that the top cap (chimney) is tight, almost a press fit, and the first use will probably require a needle nose to set it. Your find is indubitably a good buy for the cost conscious however. Thanks Maz.



Good luck.

I bought the base and top caps from LV and just could not get the top into the base by hand. I emailed Sean and within minutes I received a reply to use some pliers and muscle. Whe I did that I got them all assembled (just for storage space. I don't want to loose small parts). What I am trying to say is that Sean's customer service is tops! Quality and service (plus only a day from me shipping wise in FL) sometimes is better for ME than the cheapest price.

 

[aldenf]

Hi Gang,

I've read the entire thread and learned much in the process. THANK YOU! Mac, you're a saint.

I found the thread a week after I started vaping in May, when I realized my hand-wound coils over silica, though better than stock, were still mediocre. I've been building my KPT2 and EVODS with T.M.C.s since. Made myself a little jig, similar to cig's, and wind off of a vice. When I started having strange variable resistance readings, I picked up some rubber grommets from LV. Everything is grand in Kanger land...

Now on to my RBAs. I like building my KFL+ and Plume Vail (clones) with twisted wire (I use both 30g & 28g). Love the flavor from them. Tonight I tried the T.M.C. technique. When I released tension, my 11 wrap became a 9 wrap and the entire coil was loose on the mandrel. I tried again using more tension and snapped the twisted 30g. Can't find a tension to keep them tight on the mandrel and not snap the wire. Not annealing anymore according to Mac's advice. But the twisted wire is just so darned springy. Should I start annealing the twisted wire? Any overall thoughts on T.M.C.s using twisted wire?


Next question...

I got my 79yo dad a VTR, & 2 KPT2s w/AFCs for Father's Day. He quit analogs the end of July after 60 years of a PAD. I've been rebuilding coil heads for him and he mails the spent ones back to me. He has a hard enough time trying to wick the coils let alone build them. In fact, he often destroys the coil while trying to rewick. It frustrates and depresses the engineer in him. There has to be a majority of vapers that are unable or unwilling to be this fiddly with coils and such. I travel a lot for business and am not always able to get rebuilt coils to him in a timely manner. He'll limp by on a messed up head. But I don't want him going back to analogs. Any advice?

How do the new Aspire BVC heads in the Nautilus Mini compare to a good PT2 rebuild?

Just exploring options...

Thanks!

~Alden

PS. My last analog was on the 4th of July after 25+ years of a PAD. I had tried everything in the past, both OTC and prescribed. I could kiss you guys for all that you give to the community...

 

[Mazinny]

Hi Gang,

I've read the entire thread and learned much in the process. THANK YOU! Mac, you're a saint.

I found the thread a week after I started vaping in May, when I realized my hand-wound coils over silica, though better than stock, were still mediocre. I've been building my KPT2 and EVODS with T.M.C.s since. Made myself a little jig, similar to cig's, and wind off of a vice. When I started having strange variable resistance readings, I picked up some rubber grommets from LV. Everything is grand in Kanger land...

Now on to my RBAs. I like building my KFL+ and Plume Vail (clones) with twisted wire (I use both 30g & 28g). Love the flavor from them. Tonight I tried the T.M.C. technique. When I released tension, my 11 wrap became a 9 wrap and the entire coil was loose on the mandrel. I tried again using more tension and snapped the twisted 30g. Can't find a tension to keep them tight on the mandrel and not snap the wire. Not annealing anymore according to Mac's advice. But the twisted wire is just so darned springy. Should I start annealing the twisted wire? Any overall thoughts on T.M.C.s using twisted wire?


Next question...

I got my 79yo dad a VTR, & 2 KPT2s w/AFCs for Father's Day. He quit analogs the end of July after 60 years of a PAD. I've been rebuilding coil heads for him and he mails the spent ones back to me. He has a hard enough time trying to wick the coils let alone build them. In fact, he often destroys the coil while trying to rewick. It frustrates and depresses the engineer in him. There has to be a majority of vapers that are unable or unwilling to be this fiddly with coils and such. I travel a lot for business and am not always able to get rebuilt coils to him in a timely manner. He'll limp by on a messed up head. But I don't want him going back to analogs. Any advice?

How do the new Aspire BVC heads in the Nautilus Mini compare to a good PT2 rebuild?

Just exploring options...

Thanks!

~Alden

PS. My last analog was on the 4th of July after 25+ years of a PAD. I had tried everything in the past, both OTC and prescribed. I could kiss you guys for all that you give to the community...

Congrats on finally kicking the habit !

I'm sure Mac will respond soon to your first question.

As for the second, i haven't tried the Nautilus BVC, but out of all stock coils i have tried, Innokin seems to make the most consistent ones, specifically the top coil 30s. Really easy to change, never had one malfunction on me, and decent taste. It's a dual coil, so it needs decent power and consumes a lot of liquid, but if consistency and reliability are more important than superior taste, i think it's a very good choice. It was designed for the VTR by the way ! was it not included with the VTR ?

Good luck to you and your dad !

 

[aldenf]

Thanks, Maz!

The 30s did come with both of our VTRs. As you mentioned, it does go through a lot of juice; noticeably more than a rebuilt PT2 with weaker flavor. The biggest drawback is that dad seems to be liking tank-cracking juices and glass tanks are not available for the 30s. The choice for 19mm glass clearos seem to be Kanger, Aspire or Smok. I only have experience with Kanger products as I knew from the beginning that the heads could be rebuilt somewhat easily. Maybe I'll have to rebuild 15-20 heads at a time for him, which should be plenty to get him through my longest trips...

Thanks again!

Congrats on finally kicking the habit !

I'm sure Mac will respond soon to your first question.

As for the second, i haven't tried the Nautilus BVC, but out of all stock coils i have tried, Innokin seems to make the most consistent ones, specifically the top coil 30s. Really easy to change, never had one malfunction on me, and decent taste. It's a dual coil, so it needs decent power and consumes a lot of liquid, but if consistency and reliability are more important than superior taste, i think it's a very good choice. It was designed for the VTR by the way ! was it not included with the VTR ?

Good luck to you and your dad !

 

[MacTechVpr]

Next question...

I got my 79yo dad a VTR, & 2 KPT2s w/AFCs for Father's Day. He quit analogs the end of July after 60 years of a PAD. I've been rebuilding coil heads for him and he mails the spent ones back to me. He has a hard enough time trying to wick the coils let alone build them. In fact, he often destroys the coil while trying to rewick. It frustrates and depresses the engineer in him. There has to be a majority of vapers that are unable or unwilling to be this fiddly with coils and such. I travel a lot for business and am not always able to get rebuilt coils to him in a timely manner. He'll limp by on a messed up head. But I don't want him going back to analogs. Any advice?

How do the new Aspire BVC heads in the Nautilus Mini compare to a good PT2 rebuild?

Just exploring options...

Thanks!

~Alden

PS. My last analog was on the 4th of July after 25+ years of a PAD. I had tried everything in the past, both OTC and prescribed. I could kiss you guys for all that you give to the community...

First Alden thank you, and I'm sure cigatron appreciates the nod too.

But you break my heart Alden dangit. Your story epitomizes why I am on here at all. I am a disabled American. I knew there would be challenges to all of us and that vaping could be far more inclusive. I joined ECF to improve the science and make it more accessible to the broadest reach of vapers. The ones who can readily and easily explore the boundaries, well God bless 'em. Have at it. I write for the rest of us and one is your Dad.

I see no damned reason why we're still living in the dark ages in vaping. And I'm doing everything possible to end that. Let's call it the Tension Winding Initiative. I know that for many of us rebuilding every day or often and even at all is difficult or impossible. If I have my way, coils would be made in America, by many; that is, you could find folks making them everywhere and as common as the short-order cook. And my friend, I've been exploring exactly that with S Florida as a test bed. So to make proper electrical coils for vaping as common and inexpensive, relatively, as it should very well be. That has been the foundation of my research. And I've just acknowledged it for the very first time here, to you.

I am waiting for reasonable Americans within our own retail vaping community to understand the necessity, that there is the wide market there (not the narrow) and the commercial reward of this product and service. Hoping that it happens and that this broad majority of us who are merely waiting for it, may come to see it.

Wish us all luck Alden, this isn't at all about cloud blowing (though we like it too, don't we?).

 

[MacTechVpr]

...Should I start annealing the twisted wire? Any overall thoughts on T.M.C.s using twisted wire?

Thanks alden for your observations. I'm going to retire for some rest again tonite and I'll give your first question some more thought. But the answer to this point is don't.

You can't achieve the thoroughness of adhesion with twisted that you can with straight wire. The springyness you refer to is an impediment to creating a t.m.c. with twisted, true. Conversely though, you want to preserve as much alumina oxide fusion as may be possible. It will be less with twisted wire. However, in torching the wire you will prematurely begin to oxide it compromising the potential for it to oxidize in a state of adhesion when it is pulsed, as limited as it may be with a twisted wind.

The short answer: If you torch it you won't be a microcoil. You'll have something substantially less.

Back to this point later and for a long time no doubt. It is the focus of my own personal study. I break it constantly and use it extensively for myself.

Good luck and goodnight.

 

[cigatron]

As it stands I don't anneal wire for any applications (protanks, rda's etc) except for twisted. Even with a cigatron coil winder (see blog) where enough tension can easily be applied to break twisted 30 and 29awg wire I can't get twisted winds to hold (without excessive spring back) unless I annneal first.

As far as adhesion goes I have been unable to prove that alumina oxides (a powder actually) have any effect on mechanically adhering coil winds together. I believe adhesion in contact coils can be primarily attributed to the same metallurgical properties we experience in the welding field. If you heat metal and then cool it quick enough it will shrink to a dimension smaller than its original size. A phenomenon which causes welders much grief when attempting to keep their projects straight. Also used in a welding process called flame straightening.

When we wind with tension we are disrupting the molecular structure of the wire and causing the atoms to stir which causes heat to develope in the wire. Very very little heat but enough to cause the wire to hold its shape when it cools and is released from tension.

If you are concerned with obtaining maximum mechanical contact between the winds then heat the coil to red hot and quickly quench with water or pinch with pliers before your build. This will cause maximum contraction (shrinkage) of the wire and pull your winds together because of the helical design of a coil.

That said, I really don't use single strand contact coils (micro coils, tmc's) whatever you're calling them these days. After winding hundreds in many sizes and diameters, performing extensive testing in pro tanks and rdas, and fiddling fiddling fiddling around with them I have moved on to experimentation with tensioned non-contact coils. So far I'm happy enough with the results that I haven't wound a contact coil in over a month.

As always, not an argument here, just stating my observations and thoughts.

cig

 

[aldenf]

Hey, cigatron. Thanks for chiming in. I built one of your coil winders, except that I used doweling as opposed to square stock. It's what I had lying in the shop. It works great! I'll get around to posting some pics of my coiling escapades eventually, if only to encourage other noobs in the process.

You raise a good point. The scientist in me always asks the question "why?". I've been building resistance coils and simple motors since freshman year in high school; electronics shop. Over the last 20 years, I have built hundreds of electronic "gadgets" for use mostly as props and special effect in the entertainment industry. When I started my vaping journey, I was no stranger to Ohm's Law, PG or VG (we use these liquids for smoke, fog & haze effects).

Mac's T.M.C. technique/theory is solidly grounded in physics and does everything he says it does. You'll get no arguments from me. I do ask whether it's always appropriate for our use, however, depending on the application. Admittedly, I have not had extra time over the past three months of vaping to carry out many experiments of my own. The 200+ hours combing through threads here took up most of my free time (and sleep as well). Even Aspire's new, much lauded, Bottom Vertical Coil is a helical, non-contact coil. What do the manufacturers' engineers know that we don't? T.M.C.s could just as easily be wound by an automated system before installing in the heads.

I rebuilt my first few KPT2 heads using Rip's method. Then I found this thread. The contact coil is certainly more efficient than a loose hand wind over silica. When I nailed my first T.M.C. in the KPT2, it was a noticeable difference. It was much more efficient, raising resistance, outperforming lesser coils with less voltage and creating much less ancillary heat (KPT2/EVOD base and 510 connections were noticeably cooler). If T.M.C.s are far superior to helicals, however, why don't the better manufacturers use them?

Here in the vaping community, we discuss Ohms, Volts, Watts, Amps and coil winding techniques. What we really need to know and discuss is BTUs or joules; heat: how it's created and transferred to the e-liquid for atomization. It seems that our goal should not necessarily be electrical efficiency but thermal efficiency; two different things.

This is probably not the appropriate thread to undertake such a theoretical/conceptual discussion. But I'd certainly like to start that discussion...