Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[MacTechVpr]

Just a thought vdaedalus…the lowest possible resistance I have logged winding 30g at 8/7 on 1/16" (~1.58mm) is 1.81Ω for the tightest build I've had to date.

The lowest resistance I've attained again for 30g at 8/7 on 5/32" has been 2.2Ω exactly. Now mind you that set was nested on the "V" of the slot, at a position higher than the set you described. Accordingly the wire length would be longer and expectantly the resistance.

I was going to post these earlier as they correspond to primary (common drill/screwdriver) mandrel dia. most people can find to build on. So they represent good objective targets for predictable builds. Again here are three key low resistance targets representing the tightest sets I could achieve (bottom of slot)…

30AWG, 10/9 1.58mm i.d., microcoil = 2.23Ω √
30AWG, 9/8 1.75mm i.d., microcoil = 1.99Ω √
30AWG, 9/8 1.58mm i.d. microcoil =1.93Ω (average of two tight conflicts between meters and VW device reads)
30AWG, 8/7 1.58mm i.d. microcoil = 1.81√

I'm wondering if when you reset on the 1/16" you may actually be reducing your coil i.d.? Lowering the set should shorten the wire length and reduce resistance. But your net reduction at ~.40Ω seems to be more than should result from merely dropping the axis of the coil. It is exactly proportional to a reduction of coil size to the above recorded minimum for 1/16". I'm saying it should be a bit higher if the coil is retaining it's shape. Bottom line you may be introducing some distortion by applying this method.

If you're getting a good and consistent result without risking a hot spot fantastic vdaedalus. You've made terrific gains in a very short time. Congratz.

Before I started researching resistance values I was hand wrapping tight symmetrical 2mm coils on Eko sleeve and setting with a .75mm sail maker's needle through the wick at the bottom of the slot. This worked well for keeping a generally realistic expectation for resistance but my hand winds varied so much in tightness that I would often get hot spots or choke the wick. I wanted to find something easier to build, reliable in performance and…predictable…for anyone. Then the micro coil which changed everything. And you have proven that it can be done quickly. Yeah, it's techy but not so difficult most of us can't master it.

I'd like to go 2mm id so I could try Ekowool again but short of setting it as you are I'd have to push down to locate it bending the legs. Too risky. I'd try your approach but I'd be concerned I wouldn't be able to feed the media, the whole reason for using that mandrel dim. Disappointing, as I really would like to have that option to Nextel.

I'm not going to be using cotton in the Kangers because hand rolling is too unpredictable for me as far as duplicating the wick density. Consequently I noticed the performance differences. Whereas Nextel is utterly consistent and every bit as good as cotton. Although more expensive, obviously.

Plus vdaedalus I'm havin' such a trip on the drippers, particularly the Immo's with cotton that the Kanger's seem to fall short. I thank Rip Tripper's for the effort. He was extremely effective demonstrating what a Protank can do. But really I think I'm headed to the Ody's and Kayfun's (for sure) for the tank solution. At some point soon I see early retirement for the PT's. Although I might very well keep some 3T's and Mini's around for the occasional eGo trip to the pool.

What keeps me going is the notion that maybe we can make life simpler for ourselves and quite a few others but setting this down in one place. Even if it's just a few of us as I was discussing with trayce on the "burny grommet" thread.

Tonight's observations and pleased for your good report of success. Keep on posting!

Good luck!

 

[TafkanX]

The draw on my first run of coil rebuilds was too tight and causing flooding problems so I pulled out the flavor wicks and replaced them with much thinner flavor wicks, just enough to seal the side slots off, and now the draw is just about perfect. Just tight enough to be perceptible, but not so tight I feel like I'm getting a workout out of it.

Also built another coil head at my desk at work today during a lull. 6 wraps, slightly wider (but evenly) spaced and sized to span the width of the head without touching the sides. Measured in at 2.4Ω and wicked according to my previous experiences. Working like a charm.

Getting faster at building them, too.

 

[vdaedalus]

@MacTechVpr Confession, I don't count that first wind -- ie: the one where you're holding the wire with your thumb and it goes over the top of the bit -- so maybe my wraps are actually 7/6s to begin with? You tell me.

However I'm not discounting that maybe my finger is holding the coil deep enough into the head when I cap it off with the plug/post that it might reduce the resistance that much (this is a really tight space), but I'm saying, I start counting on that first full wrap. Even though I see wire to the left, I count 'one' as I wrap that first wraparound.

If so, let me know, and we can advise any newbies looking for solid 1.8ohm builds to start counting AFTER the first 'over.' I just figure that one isn't a full wrap, even if we're counting 'wire visible from the top vs wire visible from the bottom.' And maybe that's something I should specify. I'm getting reliable flavour, solid vapour, from these wraps. And I credit you for doing the homework, I was basing all of this on the thread up to the point where I tried to do it myself.

Been vaping one of my 8/7, or maybe 7/6 wraps, with cotton, for a couple of hours now, and it is by far the best Protank coil vape I have had, period. No burn, no dry hits, no gurgles.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Been vaping one of my 8/7, or maybe 7/6 wraps, with cotton, for a couple of hours now, and it is by far the best Protank coil vape I have had, period. No burn, no dry hits, no gurgles.

You think I know what I'm doin'? We're all on the derp curve somewhere. Especially yours truly. I gotta pee on the electric fence too often. LOL

No worries, you got it right. I got into the habit early on of citing a complete spec like…

30AWG, 7/6 1.58mm i.d. (XC-132), microcoil = 1.57Ω

such that anybody reading my post had all the necessary info to try and hit my mark if they wanted to.

I got quite baffled, and frustrated, at the gazillion posts talking about wraps I would never see.

I try and clarify whenever someone posts an interesting result as you have.

The important thing vdaedalus is you're hitting your objective and you're grooving' on it. Now to be sure of the why and how you got there. A recipe is only as good as its ingredients! And this is a lot like cooking to me. Go for it chef vdaedalus.

Thanks.



There are three kinds of men: the one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. —Will Rogers

 

[MacTechVpr]

My post on the http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...77-possible-stinky-grommet-replacement-5.html thread about the evolving contributions here…

Yep, Mac that's the same conclusion I came to in this thread a few days ago... and I'm sure it's been "discovered" about 10,000x over and over and over! LOL!! Like you said, stuff gets buried and the site is so huge and there is so much to learn. I have been in the middle of detailed helpful threads before that are being well-visited by so many participants I feel like the whole forum is aware of the issue... then I click on another topic a few threads down, and someone is asking about that exact thing. Sometimes it feels like the Tower of Babel. Thanks for linking to that.

The word morass comes to mind. A microcosm of human experience.

However this Gordian knot may be to some extent unraveled with a little patience and persistence. I was blessed since youth I think with the inclination to ask the obvious questions. In this case, shouldn't the answer be out there? And the obvious question: Is there a standard metric? Well there is — resistance values. How to get them, achieve them.

And, fortunately, "about 4 wraps of 28 gauge", is not very illustrative to me.

So with a little luck, about the time I ditched Vivi Nova's and rotten sneakers, I was able to find…

Micro coils and ohms description

Which has formed the basis for every build I've done since.

Now, seeing the frustration of virtually all of us to spend months, perhaps years, struggling with the characteristic mischief of atomizers I thought it might be swell to identify the reference production targets for common atomizers. The optimal zone/s of performance for which they were designed. That's been my goal with Kanger and to validate those sweet spots as a starting point for the average user along with the most efficient methods to acquire them in builds.

I'm attempting to do so on M_DuBb716's excellent thread…

Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

I chose this thread as it contains the most practical solution, the simple and precise contact coil, as well as one of the most popular and effective clearomizers in use, the Protank.

I hope more of us will post findings there and populate the data already present to further validate those outstanding performance zones. As well, the useful techniques to target them precisely. Because without these kinds of data Protanks and the like will always underperform for the frustrated user. Hopefully, I or someone will be successful in pinning a usable workup, table, etc. of this data as a header post for this thread.

As microcoils become the de facto build arrangement the excellent title of this thread should serve as the logical beacon of searches by the curious and genuinely thirsty for answers.

Thanks for your interest Trayce.

Good luck all!

 

[beckdg]

i've been fighting and fighting, trying different tricks from the forum here and there.

i'm finding that cotton top wicks (not from rope or twine) seem to always lose form and get sucked into the smoke stack (top tube) of the head. then they cut off air flow and induce flooding/gurgling/burning.

my sole 1/16" drill bit has the solid end cut off short as i used it for a project in one of my hobbies. not much room for winding while holding. i've been using a paper clip that's as close to the exact OD as i can tell without putting it to a micrometer. put one in front of the other, close one eye and wince and the one behind disappears. switch which one's in front and you get the same results. they're pretty close. doubt my calipers will show much variance. though the paper clip isn't perfect, obviously.

i've been getting fantastic performance at the conclusion of each build. built my 11 heads over and over and over. searching for that coupe de gras' of vaping consistency and vapor production. been picking the one that gives me best performance and settling with it until i notice a drop in performance. also been applying top wicks to all of them until last night. paranoid about end of tank gurgling. we all go through it at some point, i'm sure. there's a learning curve with these things.

however;
it seems no matter how i mat up and how tight i twist and lock down my cotton flavor wick, it always stretches and stops up that damned tube.

so last night i finally decided, though i know most suggest you need a larger diameter coil than i've been making to do so, i was going to insert a rather tight wound wick and do without the top wick. EUREKA!!!!!! so far. no slow decline in performance. i'm at the bottom of the tank now and no gurgling. more vapor than i'd get smoke from an analog with the same effort. (important as i'm apparently sensitive to PG. also nearly chain vaping at 36mg/ml or thereabouts unless i get nice vapor production.) most importantly NO BURNT GROMMET so far. vaping at 9.5 Watts and NO BURNT GROMMETS. dunno if i've already said this but, EUREKA!!!

what i've noticed;

• cotton must be twisted about the same mean diameter as the coil (difference between ID and OD)
• the twist HAS TO BE TIGHT!!! i twisted mine until it twisted into tight little coils of it's own. then started feeding it in.
• cotton so tight it HAS to be threaded into the coil. twist it the wrong direction and you're undoing it while threading it in. make note of what direction your coil will allow it to thread in and twist accordingly. you want it to tighten as you thread it in.
• wick MUST be trimmed flush with the edge of the flange. you'll have just enough cotton to fill the gaps under the silicon cup. if you don't cut it off exactly flush with the edge of the flange (if you leave a smidgen of overlap) you risk bunching or repositioning upon assembly. this then risks leaving an opening for juice to enter.
• no girly toots. this IS NOT a cigalike. it demands you to draw AT LEAST like you would an analog. slow, controlled toots WILL draw juice in and introduce gurgling. good air flow during a toot directs the flow to the air holes and ensures a perfect dense vapor every time.

for purposes of disclosure;
i'm currently using 32Ga A1 kanthal @ what i recall to be an 8 wrap coil @ what is now measuring 2.7Ω on the VAMO V3. i do count that first turn.
this is also on a PTII since (as i knew was inevitable) i started reacting to the metal tip. now using a plastic drip tip from my vivi nova.

 

[rdwilliamson]

Just got my Protank 2 yesterday. I know I am late to the party, but I didn't want to give up on my Vivi Novas.....Glad I did.

Anyway, I used a 20 gauge blunt tip needle in my coil jig. 32Ga kanthal and a 5/4 wrap. Inserted the coil in the cup and twisted my cotton. I get the tip of my cotton small enough to slide into the needle and then pull the needle out. It leaves enough wick sticking through to pull it in the rest of the way. No flavor wicks.

Been through two tanks and no gurgling. I will say it is a awesome vape. 1.8ohm at 15watts on my vamo and it hits like a beast.

 

[PapaGeno21]

I doubt understand how you people can so so high wattage, mine all taste like its burning past about 7-8 watts. Doing 8 loops on a 1.5mm drill bit with 30g and they come out to 1.8 ohms. They are torched in place so there's no gaps between the coils and they glow from center out and no hot legs. I'm still confused.

I just ordered 7 more pro tank 2s and I think I made a mistake doing that.

 

[MacTechVpr]

...i'm finding that cotton top wicks (not from rope or twine) seem to always lose form and get sucked into the smoke stack (top tube) of the head. then they cut off air flow and induce flooding/gurgling/burning...

...i know most suggest you need a larger diameter coil than i've been making to do so, i was going to insert a rather tight wound wick and do without the top wick. EUREKA!!!!!! so far. no slow decline in performance. i'm at the bottom of the tank now and no gurgling. more vapor than i'd get smoke from an analog with the same effort. (important as i'm apparently sensitive to PG. also nearly chain vaping at 36mg/ml or thereabouts unless i get nice vapor production.) most importantly NO BURNT GROMMET so far. vaping at 9.5 Watts and NO BURNT GROMMETS. dunno if i've already said this but, EUREKA!!!

what i've noticed;

• cotton must be twisted about the same mean diameter as the coil (difference between ID and OD)
• the twist HAS TO BE TIGHT!!! i twisted mine until it twisted into tight little coils of it's own. then started feeding it in.
• cotton so tight it HAS to be threaded into the coil. twist it the wrong direction and you're undoing it while threading it in. make note of what direction your coil will allow it to thread in and twist accordingly. you want it to tighten as you thread it in.
• wick MUST be trimmed flush with the edge of the flange. you'll have just enough cotton to fill the gaps under the silicon cup. if you don't cut it off exactly flush with the edge of the flange (if you leave a smidgen of overlap) you risk bunching or repositioning upon assembly. this then risks leaving an opening for juice to enter.
• no girly toots. this IS NOT a cigalike. it demands you to draw AT LEAST like you would an analog. slow, controlled toots WILL draw juice in and introduce gurgling. good air flow during a toot directs the flow to the air holes and ensures a perfect dense vapor every time.

for purposes of disclosure;
i'm currently using 32Ga A1 kanthal @ what i recall to be an 8 wrap coil @ what is now measuring 2.7Ω on the VAMO V3. i do count that first turn.
this is also on a PTII since (as i knew was inevitable) i started reacting to the metal tip. now using a plastic drip tip from my vivi nova.

Some outstanding observations and I'll revisit them on a Protank at the next opportunity. RDA's keep me busy. I'm working on finally designing a dual-coil build for the Helios and a week now researching a painless way to fuse (or at least more permanently shape) ribbon for 6/7 winds in the Immortalizer. Thereafter, stacks, for dual coils in same. The idea is to create a more stable coil that's going to be more easily threadable without distortion such as with thicker media or more dense wicks like threaded torched Eko sleeve. Think ceramic or mesh as a possibility with a reusable re-burnable coil.

Just thinkin' out loud.

Congratz and good luck!

 

[rdwilliamson]

I doubt understand how you people can so so high wattage, mine all taste like its burning past about 7-8 watts. Doing 8 loops on a 1.5mm drill bit with 30g and they come out to 1.8 ohms. They are torched in place so there's no gaps between the coils and they glow from center out and no hot legs. I'm still confused.

I just ordered 7 more pro tank 2s and I think I made a mistake doing that.

Mine always did until I used cotton. I don't always go high watts though. Most times I am happy with 8 watts or so.

Don't know what price you gave to the Protank 2, but if you decide to get rid of some I might be interested.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Anyway, I used a 20 gauge blunt tip needle in my coil jig. 32Ga kanthal and a 5/4 wrap. Inserted the coil in the cup and twisted my cotton. I get the tip of my cotton small enough to slide into the needle and then pull the needle out. It leaves enough wick sticking through to pull it in the rest of the way. No flavor wicks.

Neat trick into .9mm.

A list of possible alternative diameters for blunt needle winds…

Disposable Blunt Needle Guages

Good luck!

 

[MacTechVpr]

I doubt understand how you people can so so high wattage, mine all taste like its burning past about 7-8 watts. Doing 8 loops on a 1.5mm drill bit with 30g and they come out to 1.8 ohms. They are torched in place so there's no gaps between the coils and they glow from center out and no hot legs. I'm still confused.

You're dead on for the resistance on my tightest build at that spec — 30AWG, 8/7 1.58mm i.d. microcoil = 1.81√. Your build result sounds right on too. I would check the symmetry of your set, that your leg exit is as perpendicular to the coil access as possible and tensioned in the direction of exit. Having enough tension on the exit leg keeps more of the wire completing or in contact with the loop and tightens up the resistance. It may be slight but reduces the incidence of a hot spot, no matter how slight, on the end turns. This may not be so evident in a perfect wind and not at lower wattages but I would think show up as power increases.

The symmetry is important because you may have a minute angular dislocation off the perpendicular. It won't seem apparent. The hot spot can present itself at the point of termination. It's been wild the times I've observed it because I thought I was looking at a perfect coil. By coincidence I turned the work in such a way that I could see to the bottom of the cup and…there it was. It doesn't have to be much the higher power you apply.

I think you're hitting the ideal for the Protank with your wind. But what you're describing is a hot spot somewhere. I stopped testing above 8W because I kept hitting that much hotter drier vape and couldn't account for it. I didn't think the typical user would be interested in it either as outside the green zone.

If you're leanin' towards ditching' the diameter and want to try sub-mm per rd's suggestion above, I posted a reply to him and am editing in a list needle tip gauge's for reference on this thread.

Good luck, let us know.

 

[TafkanX]

Built my first true micro coil today (coils tight and touching at least, not 100% certain of the diameter), clocked in at 2.1Ω and fires with no perceptible delay. Working beautifully! Really starting to get the hang of torching them into shape.

This is slightly addictive...

 

[MacTechVpr]

Built my first true micro coil today (coils tight and touching at least, not 100% certain of the diameter), clocked in at 2.1Ω and fires with no perceptible delay. Working beautifully! Really starting to get the hang of torching them into shape.

This is slightly addictive...

Yeah it is. It's like when you get the beast tuned just right and you drop it tightly into gear coming into the apex of that turn you just love to take. If you're lucky you're gonna slide right into that four wheel drift with a bit more brakes. And suddenly you nail it, and you do. Anyway, it's kinda like the beer after. You could get used to it. Congratz.

 

[M_DuBb716]

After a few days of experimenting, I think I like my 1/16inch/1.5875mm Microcoil's, better than the few "1.7mm" MC's I've just built.. I found a nail that is slighter wider (about 1.7mm) than the 1/16" drill bit, but still narrow enough to fit all the way down into the slot - I tried 2 different 1.7mm coils with different amount of wick on each, 1st a 10 wrap of 30ga came in @ 2.1Ω, than a 9wrap & it came in at 1.9Ω
..... But so far, it seems like my smaller I.D. (1.58mm) coils seem to vape better and give me better flavor, than the 1.7mm MC.. Need to experiment more though

Sorry I will read all of your comments ASAP. Thanks for all the feedback everyone!!

 

[MacTechVpr]

Sorry I will read all of your comments ASAP. Thanks for all the feedback everyone!!

I was startin' to worry about you M. That you might've gotten nic'd out with those new-fangled micro's you been plain with.



Glad you're back.

 

[beckdg]

15 WATTS!!! NO HOT LEGS!!! WOOHOO!!! NO MORE STINKY GROMMETS FOR ME!!!

sorry for yelling. i'm just excited. again, rip trippers is the man and comes through in good form and perfect fashion...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrvwOf13U-s

only thing i did different is trim the wick a little tighter to the flange and fray it out to fill the gap.

running at 12 Watts gives perfect flavor and sweet vapor all day. at 15 Watts, a quick chain vape turns into a cotton flavor, but it's a great vape for a once or twice over after the device has been sitting for a short while and the wick's plenty saturated.

i got 1.7Ω at the completion of my build, but it quickly built up to 1.8Ω.

i'm starting to get the impression (the point) that tight coils (each wind perfectly contacting the latter and former through the entirety of the wind) are imperative to concentrating the heat at the coil where it's needed vice at the legs to burn the grommets. notice how rip fires the coil w/out wick to check for even heat. if your coil doesn't fire in such a fashion, fire it to get it hot, squeeze it in place with a tool, let it cool and check again. repeat until you get the desired results.

28Ga A1 kanthal - CVS sterile cotton boiled twice - no silicone cup - 20/80 PG/VG - 36mg/ml - 12 wraps on 5/64 drill bit - coil placed to align bottom almost exactly at bottom of "V" slot - wick frayed out where it exits slot - 1.7Ω at build completion - 1.8Ω within the 1st 5 vapes - great vapor production and flavor all day @ 12 Watts - insane vapor and flavor @ 15 Watts for 1 or 2 random vapes after wick has had time to saturate -

 

[MacTechVpr]

Really, congratulations. That's not an easy build. I think Trip later started to emphasize how important it is to place the coil back on the mandrel and adjust the legs (without explaining much as to why). Well, it is essential, that legs be absolutely perpendicular and tensioned to avert dislocation of end turns as you finish the assembly. This build is hard for the average person because you have two choices to relocate a 5/64 wind…

1. Use a smaller mandrel or guide to push down and reposition the coil; or,
2. Reposition the coil by pulling down on the grommet and leg wires simultaneously.

A delicate and somewhat haphazard undertaking either way. Kudos to you! With the first you risk deforming the coil (raised turns) and creating incidental contact shorts by bending the legs. The latter is better as you shorten the legs and reduce resistance but there is much greater opportunity to deform the coil by unbalancing the tension on one side or the other.

Beck, for me it turned out to be a 50/50 change when I was creating builds for this diameter. I rejected a great number and had incidental variations in resistance in operation at high power I could not pin down. I concluded that it's not practical for most of us.

But it's certainly doable and if you enjoy it as you obviously do, fantastic! It's worth the effort.

If you can better elaborate, photo, or video the mechanics of your relocation steps that would add a lot to this discussion. And appreciated I'm sure by a lot of us.

Good luck!

 

[MacTechVpr]

28Ga A1 kanthal - CVS sterile cotton boiled twice - no silicone cup - 20/80 PG/VG - 36mg/ml - 12 wraps on 5/64 drill bit - coil placed to align bottom almost exactly at bottom of "V" slot - wick frayed out where it exits slot - 1.7Ω at build completion - 1.8Ω within the 1st 5 vapes - great vapor production and flavor all day @ 12 Watts - insane vapor and flavor @ 15 Watts for 1 or 2 random vapes after wick has had time to saturate -

Oh, thanks BTW for posting the wind spec. I will definitely give this a try again Beck as I do, on occasion feel the need. But you definitely need 28 AWG for this adventure.

There is a fiddly tip for both options which is the method I ultimately tried for my tests and that is to wick the coil before relocation. I used Ekowool sleeving with a cross-section of almost 2.5mm to come into that 2 mm. To bring the coil down, I inserted a thick needle into the Eko sleeve to give it and the coil as much rigidity as possible without stretching out the latter. It requires you find the right needle for the media you're using. But it will help stabilize the build and inhibit deformation. Hopefully this may help those who try.

Still, I wish I had found better results. Hopefully, you may and post them here.

Thanks and good luck!

 

[MacTechVpr]

i got 1.7Ω at the completion of my build, but it quickly built up to 1.8Ω.

I calculate the theoretical total wire length for your build at 4.21 inches (if you set at the slot bottom) Accordingly your resistance should have net at ~1.849Ω. Possible you might have briefly been hot on a wrap but as you burned in it oxidized to result the higher resistance return. I think you're pretty much in the pink. Let us know if you see any variation on this coil.

Also what kind of gear you running Beck?

Take care.