Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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dokebilee

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Holy ****! I finally replaced my old microcoil, which was nearing 2 months of age, and getting a bit dirty. I decided to make a new one today and almost forgot how many wraps I used in the old one and how I made it. I hope the new one will last just as long as the old one. I'm seriously being spoiled here.

The previous microcoil went through dry-burn cleaning roughly every 2 weeks (sometimes 1 week, it depends), along with cotton replacement. The new microcoil is clocking in at 1.68 ohms, which is lower than the previous microcoil of 1.79 ohms.

I'm using 30g Kanthal wire with a 1/16 rod, 9 wraps, and all are (roughly speaking) touching.
 

M_DuBb716

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Thanks for the video Mac! I'll have to check that out. And doke, it's so nice isn't it? So much cheaper, easier, and better than stock coils!

For some reason, I noticed that my wraps are a lot sloppier on my 1/16" bit, compared to that 16g needle (that's where the super nice coil I built with pics a few pages back, came from).. I just can't keep them from going diagonal and getting spaces on the drill bit! whenever I wrap on the needle I get perfectly tight/touching coils everytime. Guess I need to get more needles in different gauges!
.... Maybe it's because the drill-bit is stuff metal, and the needle has a little bit of flex or give to it?
 

MacTechVpr

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Thanks for the video Mac! I'll have to check that out. And doke, it's so nice isn't it? So much cheaper, easier, and better than stock coils!

For some reason, I noticed that my wraps are a lot sloppier on my 1/16" bit, compared to that 16g needle (that's where the super nice coil I built with pics a few pages back, came from).. I just can't keep them from going diagonal and getting spaces on the drill bit! whenever I wrap on the needle I get perfectly tight/touching coils everytime. Guess I need to get more needles in different gauges!
.... Maybe it's because the drill-bit is stuff metal, and the needle has a little bit of flex or give to it?

And 1/16" is your favorite for cotton, I know. Wind on a screwdriver and transfer to the bit to locate the coil in the head. Simple. And the short answer to this: Not enough tension in your wind. Now...

Very simple. A forcep helps provide very precise control. But it's not the instrument that guides the wire. It's mostly the tension on a pull that keeps the wire flat on the mandrel. Think about it.

But you don't even need a forceps, or a jig. It really is so simple. Sacrifice a tad of precision of control and pressure. If you bought your wire on a spool…feed it directly to your 1/16 screwdriver (hard to use a bit you need a good handhold). The hand pressure on one side holding the spool and guiding it's exit with the pressure of your fingers, the index finger on the tip of the screwdriver to provide stability. On the other hand the screwdriver turning slowly. Without very much tension at all the wire slides right in line. Very little chance of overlap, or lift off if you apply just a modicum of pull.

I would really love to do a picture sequence of the mechanics of this. It's elegant in its efficiency.

Look, it's maddening to walk into this forum and see people baffled and frustrated unable to feed silica. It requires a 2mm coil but doesn't easily fit into it or the optimal coil sizes for most clearos. Likewise nuts that people are following the ritual for years of a winding technique from the most vestigial ages of electronics. When teenage girls make costume jewelry common to the steampunk craze with far superior coil technology. I've met adults with kids doing this clinging to the ritual they've witnessed on these pages. Why, oh why?

I'm gonna go back now and thank Metalhead for his thread on building and how it focused me and several others on there. Because he said I'm not gonna let people go on doing this. I'm taking some time out of my life to show how to do this clearly. Let's move on from freehand winding. And Trayce reminded me, nobody had spoken up apparently to decry the fact that AGA positive post insulators do not work on clearo's. Too big, they block the airflow.

Somebody has to do it. Somebody has to state the obvious. And we must stop assuming that somebody else will do it for us.

So I'm trying to do a bit. And hope others will step up and help newcomers. And let's stop the defense of these archaic methods. Whose making those silly coils? China.

We don't have to build coils the way they seem to compelled to in China. For crying out loud. Why? Because Kanger or AnyVape makes 'em that way? Oh that's ok, we can't see those. They're in the head thinga-ma-jiggy.

Sorry for the rant. My little pet peeve (made me do it).

:(
 
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MacTechVpr

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That's why i'm not much use in this discussion. Here i'm thinking all those little tidbits are obvious/common sense/etc.. :facepalm:

Well damn if you haven't caught me with my pants hangin' round me knees a'ginnn. Cause, yep, I was one of those people I was talkin' about...peein' on the electric fence themselves...hand windin' when I knew better that first month I quit. With an artist daughter into steampunk and hoop rings and the whole shebang. A guitarist musician who knew that micro coiling had been around for centuries. I kept on following the herd into glycerin oblivion doin' that very ritual myself. Cursin' vape creation.

:facepalm:

So I figured I'd take it a step further for the sake of simplicity. No jig, no forceps. Only fair. Can't make it any simpler than that, or we're back to winding wet noodles.

Keep the 510 dry Beck. See ya out here.

Good luck.

:)

There are three kinds of men: the one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. —Will Rogers
 

M_DuBb716

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Hey Mac, I'm a guitarist too!! I actually took an apprenticeship this past summer, and built a Telecaster from scratch.. Got to keep the Tele, it is suchh a nice guitar! Still haven't put the finish on her yet, have to fix a couple small bugs first

Not to get off topic again though.. I don't know why my coils come out so much even on the needle compared to the drill-bit.. Think it has to do with my 1st wrap somehow. I need to figure this out because the smaller coil seems to give me more flavor
 

Jellyfish

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I thought that I'd mention this in case any of you guys want to use cotton and are having trouble with repeatability. My wife missed the last two steps coming down the stairs over the weekend so I took her to the ER where she was diagnosed with a sprained ankle (whereas my diagnosis was klutz) and fortunately nothing was broken. They discharged her with an air cast for stability and when I got home I looked in the goody bag and there was a roll of cotton (presumably) that was about 3" wide and maybe 1.5 mm thick.

So today I cut a strip a little over 1/4" wide and then rolled it and fed it through a 1/16" microcoil in the usual manner. This was probably a little too thin, but I did not feel like turning back. I vaped it on a dual coil IGO-W (which I still have not successfully set up correctly) and there was plenty of vapor, so it appears to me that this wicking material is doing its' job. So even though I am closer to never using the IGO-W again, I think that this ER cotton roll MAY have a potential benefit.

First, it looks to me like the material is called 'cotton undercast padding', so Google it or check Amazon if you are curious. But more importantly, I would think that this could lead to some repeatability in terms of building cotton wicks with consistent density for a given coil diameter because you can determine the size through trial and error that works best and just repeat the width when you cut it since it is made to a uniform thickness.

I am not absolutely sold on this because my cotton ball wick builds have been relatively successful, but I do intend to play around with it a little more. At the least, I find it interesting.
 

MacTechVpr

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I thought that I'd mention this in case any of you guys want to use cotton and are having trouble with repeatability. My wife missed the last two steps coming down the stairs over the weekend so I took her to the ER where she was diagnosed with a sprained ankle (whereas my diagnosis was klutz) and fortunately nothing was broken. They discharged her with an air cast for stability and when I got home I looked in the goody bag and there was a roll of cotton (presumably) that was about 3" wide and maybe 1.5 mm thick.

So today I cut a strip a little over 1/4" wide and then rolled it and fed it through a 1/16" microcoil in the usual manner. This was probably a little too thin, but I did not feel like turning back. I vaped it on a dual coil IGO-W (which I still have not successfully set up correctly) and there was plenty of vapor, so it appears to me that this wicking material is doing its' job. So even though I am closer to never using the IGO-W again, I think that this ER cotton roll MAY have a potential benefit.

First, it looks to me like the material is called 'cotton undercast padding', so Google it or check Amazon if you are curious. But more importantly, I would think that this could lead to some repeatability in terms of building cotton wicks with consistent density for a given coil diameter because you can determine the size through trial and error that works best and just repeat the width when you cut it since it is made to a uniform thickness.

I am not absolutely sold on this because my cotton ball wick builds have been relatively successful, but I do intend to play around with it a little more. At the least, I find it interesting.

Sorry to hear that. I'm glad your spouse is ok. Bone injuries are painful and once we're mature you're never quite the same. Glad she avoided tha calamity. My wishes for her healthy recovery.

Excellent observation on the padding. And curious whether it's woven or natural. When I started building miniature hand wind coils, then metric screw based coils, I experimented with (dental) surgical cotton gauze. It's much like fine cheesecloth but finer and better woven together. Everyone's familiar with it. Never throw it out! Used them extensively with silica as top wicks. My windings were too small, too packed with silica plus cotton and silica coils threw off too much gunk so the flow would get clogged in less than a day. But the flavor was awesome. If it's a fine woven, you may very well have a point! I've seen videos of people going to great lengths to isolate threads from cheesecloth. But the material I have wicks just fine. As good as any loose cotton. It begs the question, can it be threaded as simply as cotton?

201207091237167811.jpg

I see the possibility of cutting a rectangular sliver, with a diagonal on one end. Rolling it then inserting the thinner end. Helped through by a threading with a conventional thread at the tip if need be. But the rolled rectangle ultimately inserted would represent a much more predictable repeatable density. Far better than counting out and aligning thirty-six tendrils of cheesecloth for hand winding.

A bold experiment for someone.

Good luck!

:)
 

Jellyfish

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Hey Mac, first thanks for the well wishes on behalf of my wife. She was laid up for the first couple of days but is ambulatory now and just needs to limit her time on her feet (or at least foot). Her bigger issue is that she has RSD (reflex sympathetic dystrophy) and it is a chronic pain type syndrome and any type of injury can set it off and/or worsen things. Anyhow...

Excellent observation on the padding. And curious whether it's woven or natural.

The undercast padding from the ER is definitely not a woven product like a gauze. It appears to be just cotton that is interlocked by its' own fibers. I read a description from at least one vendor that distinguished it as being constructed from short fibers, but I was unable to relocate the reference. The material itself looks more like a thin section that was cut from a cotton batt and I would love to see how it is manufactured. It also acts like traditional rolled cotton since you can tear it apart, fluff it out and compress it.

My curiosity is piqued by this find and to me the main benefit is that you can repeatedly quantify the amount that is used to form a wick. However, at the moment I can't tell how its' wicking ability compares to the cotton forms that we've been using but only that it held up well with my limited trial run.

I will investigate this further but any results that I get will probably not be relayed until after the upcoming holidays. But I will first need to isolate a standardized source because if it turns out that this stuff is the best wicking, easiest to replicate cotton ever used in microcoils I can't just tell you to sprain an ankle and hope that the ER gives you some of the same stuff that I got.:oops:
 

MacTechVpr

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Hey Mac, I'm a guitarist too!! I actually took an apprenticeship this past summer, and built a Telecaster from scratch.. Got to keep the Tele, it is suchh a nice guitar! Still haven't put the finish on her yet, have to fix a couple small bugs first...

Oh, you're a Luthieren. Just funnin'. A serious avocation. I walked away from a red honey-necked Strat in the 70's, my last band. Just dropped my gear, left my rig and walked. Good financial choice. LOL Spent most of my life studying classical and Brazilian styles as hobby rather than as a professional. Have had a few close friends who were. Started playing gospel and blues as a teen. Had beautiful Martin stolen, along with my car, at Washington Square. Guitars are a history. You become them and where they've been with you. But it's been a long while since I always had one tagging' along and spent hours at it each day. Now it's a forest of mech's that follow me wherever I go. And I study them with the same passion.

Not to get off topic again though.. I don't know why my coils come out so much even on the needle compared to the drill-bit.. Think it has to do with my 1st wrap somehow. I need to figure this out because the smaller coil seems to give me more flavor

I deployed some 15 builds in the last few days. I'm hardly torching anymore. They need to look like this every time…

IMG_0533a.jpg IMG_0558a.jpg IMG_0551a.jpg

Unfortunately, I don't have time to play with the gear as much as I'd like. The coils just have to work. To save time I bypassed detail winding as I described a few posts early. Down and dirty. Your first wrap won't matter. You're turning 14 to get 9. The more the merrier and the tighter the remaining become. Hold the spool in one hand, hold the screwdriver bit with the other as you wind, tension by pressing lightly against the screwdriver shank with thumb and or index finger. Can't get any simpler really. And very natural to release the rotation of the spool with the lower three fingers of the hand. A very natural motion. Not requiring a lot of dexterity. Just a steady modicum of tension. And above is how they come out. One after the other. Ready for installation and compression burn in, wicking and vape.

You'll notice too that I simply affixed one leg of the wind to the grip with a bit of scotch tape. Helps to keep from jabbin' yourself. Cuts off neatly with the retractable razor cutter in the background. Usually available in most dollar stores, or equivalent. If not, CVS etc. for a few $.

Next is a quick shot of one of the test Nextel wick/flavor tanks. This one through two washes, 5-6 fills, still firing true. The product in this one XC-132 which I dry fire in place. It extrudes some dusty juice sediment to the sides of the coil as that happens. I tend to leave the ends a tad long to allow me to pull the wick from the coil slightly first one side, then the other, for a bit more dry burn. That clears the remainder of the residue. The wick is then restored in fact better than the top wicks which I torch separately. They tend to get scorched by the coil more easily and earlier than the primary wick itself. But I've lost count of how long that takes. So although I like Ekowool, it saturates incredibly like cotton, it's flow doesn't come close. And I can't imagine doing the above to an Eko wick without seriously degrading it.

The third pic isn't just gratuitous color. That's one of the replacement grommets from Lighting vapes after about three cycles, the initial fill and two subsequent washings and reuses. Perhaps about 8-9 fills on that build. No burns or excessive compaction of the material. However, on several builds I've installed the head into an ohmmeter or at the point of setup in the tank and had the entire coil twist in location. VERY SURPRISING. Never had that happen to that extent. Now I don't know if this material slips more with moisture or the fact that I'm no longer annealing. It's a bit disconcerting but easy to rectify by removing the head and manual rotation of the grommet or grommet and pin, re-stabilizing and tensioning the coil again in place. A few minutes but shouldn't happen. And certainly not after a fill! You're ready to kick back and vape.

Also I've found that when winding, if you line up both legs pulled straight towards you…think Rip Trippers makin' 'em straight…grab one leg with the forceps and tension it tightly while holding the coil taught in location on the shank. Still both legs tightly towards you. If you tension the coil from the one leg enough the wire will do a precise 50% turn, or 180 degree rotation, around the shank when you release it (open the forceps). No need to tension dewind, as may be seen on various videos, which sometimes can release more turns than you want spinning abruptly i.e. releasing tension. Just consecutively pull and release the twist instead as I just described. You end up with coil legs pointing in opposite directions. Invert the coil when you reach your target count +1 and you will have a perfect, let's say, 8/9, I mean perfectly tight. Still on the screwdriver, pull the legs from the high side down into the cup head to end up with the perfect 8 wind install. No lift up whatsoever of the ends (because you've pulled down from the high side, the normal end turn tops). I know. Sounds utterly counterintuitive, right. But it just works.

Like I said I don't have the time I'd like to just play. The steps I describe above save time and each contribute to the tightness of the finish.

Good luck!

:)
 
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M_DuBb716

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This thread is #1 when for ECF results when you Google search "Protank Microcoil"!! :vapor:

Thanks for another extremely informative post Mac!! I'm going to have to read that last one over for me to fully understand everything, lol. I do wrap at least 6 or so more wraps than I intend to end with. I always keep a very strong tension when I'm winding, I meant that my 1st wind often comes out a bit diagonal/sideways, so they don't straighten out until a few wraps after that.
..... I think you were right though - I think the issue is, I just can't get a good enough grip on that tiny 1/16" drill-bit with my left hand, while winding under tension with my right hand.. I must be getting a better grip with that 16g needle, resulting in a more even wind.

Either way, I need to do a semi-quick build now because I'm going out tonight and will be a bit busy. I won't rush to the point where I mess up the microcoil, but I'm going to use the 16g needle to wrap so I get a good, even wind (like the pics a few pages ago!). Probably do a 9/8 wrap with the slightly larger diameter coil since the lower resistance seems to give me more vapor, but 10wraps seems to give me better flavor.. Hmm decisions??
 

M_DuBb716

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By the way, since I've been purchasing my kanthal at my local vape shop, i"m not getting it on a spool. They actually wrap it around 1 of their business cards, which causes some bends & kinks in the wire that I have to try to straighten out, before I build.
... I'm going to purchase some from ebay next time, real soon, and get a better deal as well. (Paying about 24¢/foot at my vape store though, which isn't bad)
 

Flavored

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This thread is #1 when for ECF results when you Google search "Protank Microcoil"!! :vapor:

Thanks for another extremely informative post Mac!! I'm going to have to read that last one over for me to fully understand everything, lol. I do wrap at least 6 or so more wraps than I intend to end with. I always keep a very strong tension when I'm winding, I meant that my 1st wind often comes out a bit diagonal/sideways, so they don't straighten out until a few wraps after that.
..... I think you were right though - I think the issue is, I just can't get a good enough grip on that tiny 1/16" drill-bit with my left hand, while winding under tension with my right hand.. I must be getting a better grip with that 16g needle, resulting in a more even wind.

Either way, I need to do a semi-quick build now because I'm going out tonight and will be a bit busy. I won't rush to the point where I mess up the microcoil, but I'm going to use the 16g needle to wrap so I get a good, even wind (like the pics a few pages ago!). Probably do a 9/8 wrap with the slightly larger diameter coil since the lower resistance seems to give me more vapor, but 10wraps seems to give me better flavor.. Hmm decisions??

I use a small set of vice grips to hold the bit. Gives better leverage.
 

MacTechVpr

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I have been wrapping mine on a 1/16 drill bit. I use 4 strands of cotton yarn (peaches) inside the coil and cotton ball on top. This has given me the most flavor and best wicking with no leaks yet. I was giving up on the protank after several builds. All were okay but this has been the missing link for me just wanted to share. I have been doing a 11/10 wrap micro using 30 gauge right about 2.1. Across all the juices I have has so far with this set up no leaking and great vape. I will sometimes pull one strand out of the inside of the coil depending. Thanks for this help from here! This thread is the reason I joined well that and the provari. :)

Thanks MrOcelot for your report. And sorry for the late comeback. It seems you have set the new target low for that wind…

30AWG, 11/10 1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 2.1Ω √

I'm recording your result for possible future tables. Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

Good luck!

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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This thread is #1 when for ECF results when you Google search "Protank Microcoil"!! :vapor:

Thanks for another extremely informative post Mac!!...I'm going to have to read that last one over for me to fully understand everything, lol.

Thank you! For the interesting thread this has turned into. And no worries. I love to share. Take your time.

Either way, I need to do a semi-quick build now because I'm going out tonight and will be a bit busy. I won't rush to the point where I mess up the microcoil, but I'm going to use the 16g needle to wrap so I get a good, even wind (like the pics a few pages ago!). Probably do a 9/8 wrap with the slightly larger diameter coil since the lower resistance seems to give me more vapor, but 10wraps seems to give me better flavor.. Hmm decisions??

I'm really likin' the 1.75-1.8mm dimension on the Kanger's, all of 'em from the MT to the PT. And 1.5mm media goes in easily, particularly the Nextel ceramic as the happy medium for both on the KPT. I started testing the lower end of the blue zone at 5.5-6W. As the reliability and consistency of these builds has improved with the techniques elaborated on Metalhed's thread and here I'm regularly testing at 6.5-8W without much difficulty. I have a tank I'm running with my own concoction of honey flue and the halo variety for 6 days. Refills only! A spot of drying during fills of the base threading and 510 connect and a preemptive qtip swipe of the chimney to catch any filling carelessness and off I go. That is about as good as it can get on a clearo. And it all has to do, all attributable to the tight precise symmetry of a basically well done build. Period.

And M, I chain a lot. And hard. Particularly these days at much reduced nic levels. All of my test tanks, in rotation. Nine of 'em, just at the keyboard the other day, running different coil/juice config's. They all get routine attention (and that's not all being tested). I'm almost kinda looking forward to settling down to one or two. Oh, and did I mention the drippers (four Immo's, Forge's, Trident's!). For Pete's sake. Right? But here's the answer M…I keep them all up and running using this simple method.

IMG_0565a.jpg

I do wrap at least 6 or so more wraps than I intend to end with. I always keep a very strong tension when I'm winding, I meant that my 1st wind often comes out a bit diagonal/sideways, so they don't straighten out until a few wraps after that.
..... I think you were right though - I think the issue is, I just can't get a good enough grip on that tiny 1/16" drill-bit with my left hand, while winding under tension with my right hand.. I must be getting a better grip with that 16g needle, resulting in a more even wind.

Once you spool, you'll always be cool.

;)
 

Jellyfish

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happened across this thread today...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/reos-mods/469696-wire-wrapping-coils.html

through that, i happened across this video... 20131023_000425.mp4 - YouTube

For anyone that is interested in coil winding jigs, I came across one similar in design to the jig posted by beckdg:

Wrapping a 1/16" micro coil for Kanger head - YouTube

Also, a little after the 5 minute mark, he uses some hospital cotton padding for his wick...although it does appear to be a little thinner than what I currently have on hand.
 
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