Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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cigatron

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I would like to share a dyi tool I made to tension wind micro coils directly from the wire spool. 3/4" square x 4" long piece of hardwood with a .070 drill bit in the end of the tool (serves as a winding mandrel) and a screw with a washer on the side of the tool (serves as a wire retainer.

PRO's:
1. It's nearly free
2. Easy to use if you have big hands and/or arthritis
3. Easy to count your turns because it's square instead of round. Count in quarter turns ie. 1,2,3-1. 1,2,3-2. 1,2,3-3 etc.
4. Provides better leverage because it's larger and has flat sides to grip.
5. Faster and more secure wire retainer than using your thumb or tape
6. No need to overwind then unwind starter coils because it winds the first turn at a perfect 90 degrees
7. Almost anyone can fabricate one with tools they already own.
8. coils are wound directly from the wire spool.
9. Coils require no torching before install

CONs:

1. Will only accommodate two mandrel sizes ie. one size on each end of tool
2. Probably won't look as pretty as a pin vise.
 
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MacTechVpr

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I would like to share a dyi tool I made to tension wind micro coils directly from the wire spool. 3/4" square x 4" long piece of hardwood with a .070 drill bit in the end of the tool (serves as a winding mandrel) and a screw with a washer on the side of the tool (serves as a wire retainer.

PRO's:
1. It's nearly free
2. Easy to use if you have big hands and/or arthritis
3. Easy to count your turns because it's square instead of round. Count in quarter turns ie. 1,2,3-1. 1,2,3-2. 1,2,3-3 etc.
4. Provides better leverage because it's larger and has flat sides to grip.
5. Faster and more secure wire retainer than using your thumb or tape
6. No need to overwind then unwind starter coils because it winds the first turn at a perfect 90 degrees
7. Almost anyone can fabricate one with tools they already own.
8. Coils are wound directly from the wire spool.
9. Coils require no torching before install

CONs:

1. Will only accommodate two mandrel sizes ie. one size on each end of tool
2. Probably won't look as pretty as a pin vise.
\

Sounds awesome cig. Lotta days I can't do this. I have motor control issues. The time will come when it'll be more often than not. So I look at everything. Build it. Show us the purdy pics.

I do see a very serious problem though, beyond the mandrel sizes…

Probably won't look as pretty as a pin vise.

I dunno cig. You know it's all about the coool factor with us vapers.

Good luck.

:)
 

cigatron

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\

Sounds awesome cig. Lotta days I can't do this. I have motor control issues. The time will come when it'll be more often than not. So I look at everything. Build it. Show us the purdy pics.

I do see a very serious problem though, beyond the mandrel sizes…

Probably won't look as pretty as a pin vise.

I dunno cig. You know it's all about the coool factor with us vapers.

Good luck.

:)

Built a few already. My "friends" ran off with all but the ugliest one! Huh
When I post a reply I don't see an option for inserting a pic......guess it's because of my new member status?
 

t.d

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So anyone have any updates on their xc-132 wicking? How long is it lasting between dry burning? How many watts can you chain vape at?
I've been using cotton and getting great performance but I'm getting tired of changing wicks every 3-5 ml.

I installed a 3ohm 32g 2mm readyXwick yesterday and its been rocking. I never liked my kanger products passed the first evod, but all the issues have gone away. I could in fact chain vape it, but my device got really hot. I switched to a 2.1ohm readywire and rocking lower watts till I can figure it out. I'm seriously considering investing in a wire zapper to make some 30gNR to 30g to avoid the grommet issue and help with heat displacement.

readyXwick 2mm (1.65mm) was made for single coil kanger heads!!!!
 

cigatron

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I installed a 3ohm 32g 2mm readyXwick yesterday and its been rocking. I never liked my kanger products passed the first evod, but all the issues have gone away. I could in fact chain vape it, but my device got really hot. I switched to a 2.1ohm readywire and rocking lower watts till I can figure it out. I'm seriously considering investing in a wire zapper to make some 30gNR to 30g to avoid the grommet issue and help with heat displacement.

readyXwick 2mm (1.65mm) was made for single coil kanger heads!!!!

TD, sounds interesting. I checked out the readyxwick. Wished they offered in xc-132. It has been said here on ecf that Xc-116 is too large to fit comfortably through my .070 dia coils. Many have found that .070 is the largest dia they could use without burning grommets or shorting against the chimney.

I have been winding 30awg kanthal A1, 8/7 wrap, 070 dia., 1.95-1.97 ohm tensioned microcoils on a diy handheld winding tool as prescribed in this thread. Wicked with cotton (no flavor wicks) on evods and mini protanks I am rock'n chain vapes at 10 watts without burning grommets. Clouds......no kidding.
Cool thing is I never have to torch and compress the coil before or after the install and I have never had a hotleg. Tensioned micro coils are the best imo.

Big watts however requires big airflow. Try drilling out the airholes in the base one at a time to increase airflow. This will keep things cooler too. If you go too big and lose wicking flow just plug one hole with silicone or jb weld or whatever.

My Evods and Mini Protanks have one hole drilled to .058" and the others plugged off. Perfect for anything from 6-10 watts!

What diameter coils are you winding so the xc-116 fits?
 
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MacTechVpr

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I...readyXwick 2mm (1.65mm) was made for single coil kanger heads!!!!

Absolutely dead to nuts t.d. The stuff's really 2.2733mm but after full treatment reduces down to a median of just under 1.88mm (dry) depending on the kiln run. It's incredible flow properties are what prompted my interest in doing a full fledged comparison study of wicking media and methods for common consumer clearomizers including Kanger. Now running nine months.

Non-res is a whole lot of fiddly and you can't tension it (at least I'm reluctant to break 'em) so you lose the potential upwards of 20% in efficiency and short resistance tension affords. Hard rubber grommets are what you need. Old school Kanger's from last year. When you threw a KPT head on a carto-meter and read the res. it friggin' stayed that way. The softer grommets are the problem. But alternatives are available, the won't lull you to sleep thinking you're not shorting while they burn. And the simple answer is that a good symmetrical build with termination in the direction the leads exit the coil does address, really, better than 90% of the short issues. I have folks tell me all the time that the method I describe is actually a lot closer to 100% when you get consistent.

Up to you. I can only tell ya and hope you try both the tension and termination approaches. I believe you won't regret it. I don't. I live and breathe these things and wouldn't survive it without these solutions.

TD, sounds interesting. I checked out the readyxwick. Wished they offered in xc-132. It has been said here on ecf that Xc-116 is too large to fit comfortably through my .070 dia coils. Many have found that .070 is the largest dia they could use without burning grommets or shorting against the chimney….
What diameter coils are you winding so the xc-116 fits?

Hey cig. Nice to see you gathering info. I posted several .70mm builds on the Resistance Tables in this thread. That diameter is about the best available for this wick as it uses up as much of the slot as possible. And…XC-132 is available from two sources, both RBA supplies and SnG Vapor, kiln treated and cleaned respectively. So you're not going to lose out on anything if you've already gotten drill blanks or blits, you're good to go. SnG also has pre made coils if you'd like to see the performance of a conventional wind by comparison.

I actually like 5/64" a lot and 1/16 braid can be plumped up using a needle very nicely to that diameter. But it implies having to dremmel the slot, for example. That's just to much messin' for those trying to get to a stress free micro solution. That baseline's what I'm trying to get folks too. After that, it's up to you. Me I'm looking at all the possible answers downstream for the Protank including the upcoming mega and rather sophisticated ideas at that. But my posts continue to be centered on getting to a point of consistency, first. Then the fun begins.

Good luck fella's.

:)
 

t.d

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But alternatives are available, the won't lull you to sleep thinking you're not shorting while they burn.

:)

Please do tell. I only want the wire zapper because I found that I had massive heating issues at 1.65mm/32g/3ohm/9 watts without the res wire. My readywire is really thin though and my flavor was a bit muted. 1.65mm/34gNR/2.2ohm/9 watts had no heating issues at all. I didn'try to build using 30g or 28g wire because I assumed it would stay hotter longer.

edit, I feel like a noob but where are you guys gettings these sizes 1/16 and 1/32? I only see 2 and 3mm options. I thought that referenced the OD of the wick?
 
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MacTechVpr

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Please do tell. I only want the wire zapper because I found that I had massive heating issues at 1.65mm/32g/3ohm/9 watts without the res wire. My readywire is really thin though and my flavor was a bit muted. 1.65mm/34gNR/2.2ohm/9 watts had no heating issues at all. I didn'try to build using 30g or 28g wire because I assumed it would stay hotter longer.

edit, I feel like a noob but where are you guys gettings these sizes 1/16 and 1/32? I only see 2 and 3mm options. I thought that referenced the OD of the wick?

Nomenclatures been a big problem with B&M's, producers and distributors all mixing up and using their own designations. Somebody needs to write this up well (I just don't have the time tonight).

The 1/16" i.d. most commonly known as XC-132 (SnG) and Slim (RxW) is the product you refer to I believe. And what I've written about extensively on ECF. Best performance for this product I've found is with 29-30 AWG at winds between 1/16" and .07" (in the KPT), power upwards of 7W to about 10W (depending on juice density). You're referenced 9 watts seems to be an ideal temperature target for this wick and for a great many types of flavors. Although ceramic braid can handle far more power the vaporization curve seems to flatten out above 10W in a Protank and if pressed, you're undersaturated. I don't believe this is a lack of flow capacity rather inadequate airflow in the KPT. I know this seems counterintuitive as Nextel is a hose but I have dried out the wick with heavy chaining at high power. Although juice viscosity/temperature may have played an important part. Merely dropping down the power level restores the output volume. You never burn this stuff. It's amazing.

A thing to note about the Protank in general. If you have a resistance/power/wick mismatch the Protank itself will heat up very fast. Becoming hot to the touch. And this is an important indication first, of a likely short or hanger; if not, of a build misconfiguration. That's the point to sit down and analyze your selection, including juice, and appearance of your set. After doing so many.of these t.d. I've come to understand the darn things will tell ya what they need if you just look carefully.

If you're muted more surface contact area would seem best. It's about deflection. That's what produces the most area of vaporization. However, you don't want to pinch the braid too much. In all cases try to fluff out the braid by inserting a very thin needle down the core during your build and perhaps each time as you top off. This may help as well.

Good luck man. Chime in anytime.

:)

p.s. Rethinking, definitely…up the wire gauge dude. Lose a little of the quick fire and induce a bit more of the slow cook. Cooler vape so power up, 9 min. The vapor and flavor stream will come. You're a flavor guy, aren'tcha?
 
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t.d

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p.s. Rethinking, definitely…up the wire gauge dude. Lose a little of the quick fire and induce a bit more of the slow cook. Cooler vape so power up, 9 min. The vapor and flavor stream will come. You're a flavor guy, aren'tcha?

Not much of a flavor junkie anymore, it gets expensive lol. For me its about the experience. "Was that satisfying? Do I want this or a cig?" For awhile my 350 ego was my EDC because it was so small and easy to use. This was at a time after I had upgraded from a twist to a sigelie #19 AND an evic. I've been on the same 3 DIY flavors since about mid 2012 and spend maybe $30-40 a month on a couple juices. Honestly my favorite atomizing device to date is a boge cartomizer 2.4 ohms in a DCT, they're actually cheaper than kanger coils and last longer, its just not too great with my 50/50 mixes.

G'night ECF, I'm gonna redo a kanger head with some 30g wire as suggested.
 
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MacTechVpr

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Not much of a flavor junkie anymore, it gets expensive lol. For me its about the experience. "Was that satisfying? Do I want this or a cig?" For awhile my 350 ego was my EDC because it was so small and easy to use. This was at a time after I had upgraded from a twist to a sigelie #19 AND an evic. I've been on the same 3 DIY flavors since about mid 2012 and spend maybe $30-40 a month on a couple juices. Honestly my favorite atomizing device to date is a boge cartomizer 2.4 ohms in a DCT, they're actually cheaper than kanger coils and last longer, its just not too great with my 50/50 mixes.

G'night ECF, I'm gonna redo a kanger head with some 30g wire as suggested.

Heard that t.d. and I do believe you get my point. I'm still using bogs carts with AGR's on Sig 350's for Tribeca. One of the two fav's that got me over the top (the other was Boba's). I find nuances of flavor in this combination I can't replicate by other means. I've been tearing through this technology but have barely touched RBA's (yet) except for the genny.

It is about the right temperature for the juice. So it becomes about marrying just the right wick/wire/juice/power to arrive at the best. There is no one-size-fits-all. So your solution of settling in to a few favorites is eminently practical. It's what most of us do.

I'm doomed it seems on the quest for the Holy Grail, the optimal vape and techniques to achieve it, for myself and others. But no doubt my retirement from this mission will come eventually. I'm preparing for it as I go developing my own predilections insofar as a long term juice diet.

Thanks for your observations t.d. And good luck with the wire gauge contact experiment. I hope it yields some insights into better enjoyment of your vape.

Good luck.

:)
 

cigatron

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Yes, like You said Mac, a good match between wire, wind, wick,localization and juice type has all helped the kangers perform better but if you have inadequate airflow you will never reach the limits of the device. About 10 watts with cotton wicking.

I discovered by accident that you really can' t have too much airflow if you are willing to have an airier draw. Let me explain what happened to me.

I followed this thread through all it's change of designs for coil winds, wicking, localization etc but could never chain vape my kmpt2 past 6.5-7 watts without burning. My mpt would get too hot and burn the wick and/or juice. Then someone pif'd to me a GDC. It's basically an all glass (including the air tube) version of the kmpt3. I replaced the dual coil with one of Mac's designed tmc single coil setups with cotton wick and BAM! 8-8.5 watts with no burning! OoooK, I'm thinking, what's up with this?
I noticed that the GDC was an airier draw than the mpt2 and closer observation revealed that the three air holes in the base were slighly larger. So I drilled one of the holes on a pos evod clone (which only had two holes) to just under 1/16" and plugged the other hole. BAM!!! 9.5-10 WATTS! No burning. Cloudasaurus Rex!!! (For a kanger)

I' m pretty sure that a 1/16" hole is approaching the size of the positive pin air channel diameter, if not exceeding it for the newer kanger heads I'm using. If you are using the older heads with the smaller positive pin air channel you may be limited to a lesser wattage. Maybe 8-9?

So is wicking a problem? No, because I just use a slightly stronger draw. The juice is pulled out of the tank when there is more negative pressure in the coil head area than in the tank. We create this negative pressure at the coil when we attempt to draw more air through the device than it will allow. So opening the airholes up allows for more total airflow which allows for better coil cooling but you have to draw slightly faster to maintain enough negative pressure to feed the wick. Not alot faster surprisingly, just a little is all it takes.
So grap an old pos evod you have and drill that pig out! What's the worst that can happen, vape at 10 watts?

Just say'n

Note: even with a good tight build and a silicone grommet it is never a bad idea to release the fire button a second before completing your draw.

Note2: "The Kanger Wick Tuck"?
Cut your cotton wick a little longer than normal and tuck the ends behind/under the chimney seal with a pin or small screwdriver. Then reach behind the wick and pull it back down to it's normal position. This leaves the tips of the wick up behind the seal and covers the area of juice slots where your flavor wicks would go.
There's no need to use those "flavor robbing" flavor wicks any more and if everything else on your tank setup is good it will not leak.....ever.....not even a drop on the battery with 80pg/20vg mixes.
It's been working great on my evods and protanks for months without issue.ymmv

I wonder if this will work with the new nextel xc-132(2mm slim) wick I just ordered? Hmmm, I guess we'll see!

Happy vaping
 
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MacTechVpr

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Yes, like You said Mac, a good match between wire, wind, wick,localization and juice type has all helped the kangers perform better but if you have inadequate airflow you will never reach the limits of the device. About 10 watts with cotton wicking. ...

I'm gratified at times to see validation of some of my observations (10W) and conclusions on parameters of the KPT. It helps move the ball forward to solutions that work for the many. Thanks cig.

I'm off to the SFV meet up to continue talkin' up the vape lifestyle and tension. Do some tension coils maybe, some parallels for laughs.

See ya out there. We'll get back to you on a couple of things like the draw, you're right on. Good observer, you.

Good luck.

:)
 

Bill's Magic Vapor

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Yes, like You said Mac, a good match between wire, wind, wick,localization and juice type has all helped the kangers perform better but if you have inadequate airflow you will never reach the limits of the device. About 10 watts with cotton wicking.

I discovered by accident that you really can' t have too much airflow if you are willing to have an airier draw. Let me explain what happened to me.

I followed this thread through all it's change of designs for coil winds, wicking, localization etc but could never chain vape my kmpt2 past 6.5-7 watts without burning. My mpt would get too hot and burn the wick and/or juice. Then someone pif'd to me a GDC. It's basically an all glass (including the air tube) version of the kmpt3. I replaced the dual coil with one of Mac's designed tmc single coil setups with cotton wick and BAM! 8-8.5 watts with no burning! OoooK, I'm thinking, what's up with this?
I noticed that the GDC was an airier draw than the mpt2 and closer observation revealed that the three air holes in the base were slighly larger. So I drilled one of the holes on a pos evod clone (which only had two holes) to just under 1/16" and plugged the other hole. BAM!!! 9.5-10 WATTS! No burning. Cloudasaurus Rex!!! (For a kanger)

I' m pretty sure that a 1/16" hole is approaching the size of the positive pin air channel diameter, if not exceeding it for the newer kanger heads I'm using. If you are using the older heads with the smaller positive pin air channel you may be limited to a lesser wattage. Maybe 8-9?

So is wicking a problem? No, because I just use a slightly stronger draw. The juice is pulled out of the tank when there is more negative pressure in the coil head area than in the tank. We create this negative pressure at the coil when we attempt to draw more air through the device than it will allow. So opening the airholes up allows for more total airflow which allows for better coil cooling but you have to draw slightly faster to maintain enough negative pressure to feed the wick. Not alot faster surprisingly, just a little is all it takes.
So grap an old pos evod you have and drill that pig out! What's the worst that can happen, vape at 10 watts?

Just say'n

Note: even with a good tight build and a silicone grommet it is never a bad idea to release the fire button a second before completing your draw.

Note2: "The Kanger Wick Tuck"?
Cut your cotton wick a little longer than normal and tuck the ends behind/under the chimney seal with a pin or small screwdriver. Then reach behind the wick and pull it back down to it's normal position. This leaves the tips of the wick up behind the seal and covers the area of juice slots where your flavor wicks would go.
There's no need to use those "flavor robbing" flavor wicks any more and if everything else on your tank setup is good it will not leak.....ever.....not even a drop on the battery with 80pg/20vg mixes.
It's been working great on my evods and protanks for months without issue.ymmv

I wonder if this will work with the new nextel xc-132(2mm slim) wick I just ordered? Hmmm, I guess we'll see!

Happy vaping

Yes! Wattage and air flow go hand in hand. Same as resistance and air flow go hand in hand. Can't have one without the other. Good luck and thanks for the post.
 

cigatron

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Tensioned Micro Coil Winder IMG_20140518_141530_827.jpg
 

MacTechVpr

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Note2: "The Kanger Wick Tuck"?
Cut your cotton wick a little longer than normal and tuck the ends behind/under the chimney seal with a pin or small screwdriver. Then reach behind the wick and pull it back down to it's normal position. This leaves the tips of the wick up behind the seal and covers the area of juice slots where your flavor wicks would go.
There's no need to use those "flavor robbing" flavor wicks any more and if everything else on your tank setup is good it will not leak.....ever.....not even a drop on the battery with 80pg/20vg mixes.
It's been working great on my evods and protanks for months without issue.ymmv

I wonder if this will work with the new nextel xc-132(2mm slim) wick I just ordered? Hmmm, I guess we'll see!

Happy vaping


I've mentioned in previous posts that despite best efforts pigments do buildup in ceramic braid where contacting the coil. That's where pigments are also bonding to the coil surface as a roughened gunky buildup. It also ingrains like a rocky lattice in the outermost braids of Nextel. I believe it significantly reduces the efficiency of vaporization eventually throttling the wick. Shorts cause acceleration of the buildup, any inefficiency of contact within the coil like barely seen inconsistencies in turn-to-turn contact as with a conventional formed microcoil. Any such imperfection promotes the buildup of pigments on coil and braid. This includes Eko and silica as well.

That cig is why I so devotedly extol the benefits of proper electrical winds here. You want the best vape, longest most satisfying build performance — build it right, build it tight. Out with overly compressed flimsy grommets producing hangers and intermittent shorts. Pigment gunking is the enemy of a consistent vape.

That said, your suggestion on filling out the slot area and doing away with the flavor wick is great. Better exit airflow in my estimation. That in part is why I loved 5/64 on the KPT. I could put an oversize Eko wick in that fluffed up to the slot and forego the flavor wick. Pretty good result. Just not as good as Nextel despite the need for a flavor wick. But I loved doing those tests. Just that I concluded the average user would not go through the hassle of Kanger assembly modification to get it. And many would be deterred at the prospect.

But your idea with cotton works well and I honestly did not test it adequately with the options I tried or had available at the time.

Your approach works because the ends of the cotton wick are pointed up. Cotton wicks tends to settle. If laid horizontally exiting the slot they tend to sag. Sometimes this leaves a slight gap and likewise a contact gap at end turn top!!! Most people may not even notice this. I didn't for the longest time while I was actually testing cotton. I only realized this when I started working with drippers long after I concluded those tests…that you're often running an effective short with cotton if you're not careful.

With your method the cotton being held upward by the cup wall would serve to avert that collapse and maintain a complete contact on those very critical end turns. Just wanted to point that additional benefit out to all of you.

The only concern I would have depends upon the density and fiber structure of the cotton. Highly directional material like Japanese cotton is not as permeable. Highly directional fiber structures tend not to saturate as effectively from the side. So if you bend the cotton it may not exhibit the same flow. Too tight and it may strangle. Also be careful not to bend too tightly or the coil could be distorted and compromise the micro effect, or leave a contact gap at the bottom of the first turn (short)…or, introduce a slight leak gap underneath the exit of the coil at the slot. All three things you must check with your set.

You though seem to confirm this may be averted bending such a short section of wick. And I wholeheartedly agree on the airflow advantage as huge though not exceeding the benefits of ceramic braid.

I'd say, definitely worth a try for all you cotton users who would prefer it in the Protank. Just get the density right and don't give up. Be forewarned what to look out for. This is reproducible with both cotton and Eko. And I will certainly be trying it with Japanese cotton when I decide on the right coil build for it.

Not Nextel cig. The core needs to exit in line to the coil. Even minute interruptions like very slight contact on the edge of the liquid channel will block it. Bending it is verboten. However, Nextel simply fills the slot like it was made for those silly 3mm's or so and nothin' gets past it that doesn't get sucked up like you got a black hole in your back yard. You'll see. Cutting at the midpoint to the juice channel edge is just right. I cut a slight bias using the edge of the flange as a guide for the bottom cut with nail clippers. Nice clean single cut.

Thank you cig for the great feedback.

Good luck all.

:)
 
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brookj1986

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A couple 28 gauge tmcs for your viewing pleasure.

5y5u4e2u.jpg


Not perfect (happens when you're drinking during the day and watching your team win a Playoff game against the Queens...errr Kings), but will certainly fire evenly after a couple pulses.

Will likely be going in a dual coil dripper as I prefer 29 gauge in my kpt. Should come out right around 0.8 ohm or so.



Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
 
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