Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[weenerdog3443]

Thanks guys. A lot easier than I thought. Going to take some trial and error to the the cotton right I think I got the coil part down. Had my last bit of wire coiled up start pushing the pin in and the rubber grommet tore. O well time for bed.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

I have several pin vises, and they are definitely not all created the same, and price belies how good each is, as well. My favorite is the Starrett 166C, but the SE Swivel handle vise at 1/3 the cost is also very good. You can find both on Amazon. Etsy also carries the SE's. I have used many different mandrels, but settled on Aura Visual's here, as my favorite:

Aura Visual Concepts, Inc.. Almost Indestructable Mandrels

There are many options out there, and many far less expensive than these. I am a Festool freak, so that should tell you something about my preference for tools. Here's a sizing chart that I use:

View attachment Microcoils and Resistance Chart.pdf

Good luck all!

 

[Mazinny]

I have several pin vises, and they are definitely not all created the same, and price belies how good each is, as well. My favorite is the Starrett 166C, but the SE Swivel handle vise at 1/3 the cost is also very good. You can find both on Amazon. Etsy also carries the SE's. I have used many different mandrels, but settled on Aura Visual's here, as my favorite:

Aura Visual Concepts, Inc.. Almost Indestructable Mandrels

There are many options out there, and many far less expensive than these. I am a Festool freak, so that should tell you something about my preference for tools. Here's a sizing chart that I use:

View attachment 345337

Good luck all!

According to this chart, 95 % of what i have built is a mini and not a micro coil ! hmm

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

According to this chart, 95 % of what i have built is a mini and not a micro coil ! hmm

I initially started building coils with a 5/64" drill bit, and then dropped to a 1/16" bit myself. The definition of a micro coil was determined by SuperX, et al, one of the early pioneers of the micro coil, and recognized for about 18 months now, throughout the industry. There are many who reject that definition. Mac has done a great deal to define the micro coil as a tensioned contact coil. Together, it is possible to create the "Effect" on a micro coil, which may be hard to define, but you'll know it when you vape it. If you are happy with your coils, then it really doesn't matter how anyone defines these issues, but when I once questioned this myself, I had half of ECF on my ...., and I decided to let them play without me, for the most part. Good luck to you, Maz!

 

[MacTechVpr]

I initially started building coils with a 5/64" drill bit, and then dropped to a 1/16" bit myself. The definition of a micro coil was determined by SuperX, et al, one of the early pioneers of the micro coil, and recognized for about 18 months now, throughout the industry. There are many who reject that definition. Mac has done a great deal to define the micro coil as a tensioned contact coil. Together, it is possible to create the "Effect" on a micro coil, which may be hard to define, but you'll know it when you vape it. If you are happy with your coils, then it really doesn't matter how anyone defines these issues, but when I once questioned this myself, I had half of ECF on my ...., and I decided to let them play without me, for the most part. Good luck to you, Maz!

Thanks Bill for that. The definition of the term microcoil as used in truly micro environments like magnetic resonance imaging and integrated circuits is substantially diminutive and below the more common 1mm definition used in various industries. For our purposes 1mm would be satisfactory but that even within our own vaping culture we make uniquely extravagant exceptions just to include certain preferred build diameters like 1/16". This just lends to the confusion caused by arbitrary definition.

Suffice it to say that results matter. It's difficult to maintain adhesion and enough coherence for the effect much above 2mm. So there are practical limits for our purposes imposed by the physics as to what a microcoil is regardless of what we say it is.

I personally don't care what we call it except that it don't confuse folks. It's better I think if the description is representative of what it actually does for us, i.e. a contact coil; or, how we can get to one precisely and efficiently, i.e. a tensioned coil. So a healthy compromise I've used is a tensioned micro/mini/macro coil…or t.m.c., e.g. a t.m.c. of (this) diameter. I didn't coin the abbreviation but it's useful and beneficial. To give credit where due, I think mazziny first used the term back in Feb here...http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...il-question-protank-heads-2.html#post12258795 and I subsequently picked it up in the resistance tables. But here's what matters...

It's all about the effect.

Enjoy the vape and good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I am actually on the lookout for a good pin vise and dremel bit set. Right now i use a hodge podge of various screwdrivers, some in metric and some in imperial denominations. They don't all have a nice grip on the handle to make coiling easier. If anyone knows of a decent source to get these as a set, it would be greatly appreciated. I don't mind paying a little extra for drill sizes i don't need, as long as the ones i need are also included.

I saw a set that comes with a pin vise and drill bits, # 61-80. If i could find one that comes with # 41-60, i would gladly purchase even though i would only use three or four of them.

.07 inch is # 50 btw, clinire and weener.

edit : this is the most relevant i have found so far. Metric, but the two largest bits are close to being useful in pt assembly :

Mini Micro Drill Bit Set with Pin Vise Chuck 31 Pcs | eBay

picture not representative of actual bits included. scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Yes, you're right, it's a lower range of wire gauge sizes that we're interested in for the KPT and others as per Bill's reference to the Microcoils and Resistance Chart.pdf.

The two best examples of the less expensive brass swivel vice Bill cited I found today...

SE Swivel-Handle Pin Vise - Rakuten.com Shopping
Brass Rubber Handled Swivel Head Pin Vise 4 by TDSONLINETOOLS

A net search for brass pin vise should yield more. And this type of vice is common. Apparently produced by many sources in China. So the quality may vary. I've got one which is quite good and the rubber grip is excellent. Rotation is smooth and allows for more even application of tension.

I should refer back to my post on Dremel's and drill bits…#949 Drill bits or Drill Blanks, like 'em both to save some time here. Some good prices noted and still available.

Good luck.

 

[cigatron]

Weener, C, converting any PT or Evod to 5/64 (2mm) is a snap with a pin vise or drill. Use a pair of pliers to hold the coil head by the flange and drill straight through at the bottom of the slot. Then use the drill flutes (side of the bit) to widen the slot by tilting the bit up and down while drilling. Use a box cutter, sharp knife or the sharp tip of a drill bit to remove sharp edges from drilling operation and you are good to go.
I've done 5 heads this way and they work great.

Just say'n

 

[MacTechVpr]

Weener, C, converting any PT or Evod to 5/64 (2mm) is a snap with a pin vise or drill. Use a pair of pliers to hold the coil head by the flange and drill straight through at the bottom of the slot. Then use the drill flutes (side of the bit) to widen the slot by tilting the bit up and down while drilling. Use a box cutter, sharp knife or the sharp tip of a drill bit to remove sharp edges from drilling operation and you are good to go.
I've done 5 heads this way and they work great.

Just say'n

Yep, I've mangled a few myself. LOL

 

[MacTechVpr]

I was going to grab the new Mega AeroTank but decided to get a Kayfun instead, I have grown weary of clearomizers.

They still have a place in my collection when I travel but otherwise they will be gathering dust.

I still have a couple of coiling ideas to test before giving up, I have this notion of a nano coil wrapped in gauze that I think will be the ultimate performer. I did a quick test build (of the coil) in a Smok Dripper RDA and it is amazing, 32g kanthal wrapped 15 times around a 1mm needle @ 2.5 ohms.

That was a good little build f1ve, itching' to get out of a Protank.

Good luck.

 

[f1vefour]

It was a good build, thanks Mac. I need to get another Smok dripper, I drilled out the airhole way too large on that one.

 

[cigatron]

Yep, I've mangled a few myself. LOL

Yeah I know, not prettiest mod but around here it would be a game killer to suggest that pin vises and dremmel tools are a requirement for performance mods.

Around here we have a saying "you gotta run whatcha brung".

I'm always looking at the budget side of things for kanger clearo vapers that want to step up in performance.

So I recommend:

25ft. 29 or 30awg temco KA1......$5.00
2ea. 5/64" drill bits.......................$2.25
1 box Koh Gen Do cotton pads....$12.00
1ea. 3/4"x3/4"x4" piece of wood.$0.00
1ea. 1/4" long sheet metal screw.$0.00
1ea. Washer for screw...................$0.00

For less than $20.00 they can grab their elecric drill, fabricate their own winding tool, modify their coil heads and have enough wire and cotton to vape 'till the cows come home.

Same results; different clientele.

Cig

 

[f1vefour]

Warning OT.

And now there is a new clearo in town with tri-coil heads, and she's a cloud machine in stock configuration.

Joyetech Delta

http://www.joyetech.com/board/news_view.php?no=550&page=1

Twisted Review:

Joyetech Delta Review: http://youtu.be/2YEmWQ2ValU

 

[Mazinny]

Thanks Bill for that. The definition of the term microcoil as used in truly micro environments like magnetic resonance imaging and integrated circuits is substantially diminutive and below the more common 1mm definition used in various industries. For our purposes 1mm would be satisfactory but that even within our own vaping culture we make uniquely extravagant exceptions just to include certain preferred build diameters like 1/16". This just lends to the confusion caused by arbitrary definition.

Suffice it to say that results matter. It's difficult to maintain adhesion and enough coherence for the effect much above 2mm. So there are practical limits for our purposes imposed by the physics as to what a microcoil is regardless of what we say it is.

I personally don't care what we call it except that it don't confuse folks. It's better I think if the description is representative of what it actually does for us, i.e. a contact coil; or, how we can get to one precisely and efficiently, i.e. a tensioned coil. So a healthy compromise I've used is a tensioned micro/mini/macro coil…or t.m.c., e.g. a t.m.c. of (this) diameter. I didn't coin the abbreviation but it's useful and beneficial. To give credit where due, I think mazziny first used the term back in Feb here...http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...il-question-protank-heads-2.html#post12258795 and I subsequently picked it up in the resistance tables. But here's what matters...

It's all about the effect.

Enjoy the vape and good luck.

Yeah, i also don't care what they are called, so long as we all know what we are talking about. I have built tensioned contact coils ranging from 1 mm to 2 mm, and have called all of them micro's. with all due respect to Superx, i will continue to call them that, because colloquially speaking, my vaping buddies know what it refers to. When i write on the internet i usually use the phrase t.m.c and in my head i am thinking tensioned micro coil, and not tensioned mini coil. I just found it amusing, that according to the chart there is a strict cutoff and that once you go over 1/16th, you have left microland.

 

[Mazinny]

Yeah I know, not prettiest mod but around here it would be a game killer to suggest that pin vises and dremmel tools are a requirement for performance mods.

Around here we have a saying "you gotta run whatcha brung".

I'm always looking at the budget side of things for kanger clearo vapers that want to step up in performance.

So I recommend:

25ft. 29 or 30awg temco KA1......$5.00
2ea. 5/64" drill bits.......................$2.25
1 box Koh Gen Do cotton pads....$12.00
1ea. 3/4"x3/4"x4" piece of wood.$0.00
1ea. 1/4" long sheet metal screw.$0.00
1ea. Washer for screw...................$0.00

For less than $20.00 they can grab their elecric drill, fabricate their own winding tool, modify their coil heads and have enough wire and cotton to vape 'till the cows come home.

Same results; different clientele.

Cig

agreed, although you can get 100 ft for a couple dollars more !

 

[cigatron]

agreed, although you can get 100 ft for a couple dollars more !

And if you want 30awg you can get 100ft for the same price as 50ft right now at temco. $5.49 free shipping!

What's going to be interesting is to see how much closer temco comes to the spec'd resistance vs. the wire I got from my last supplier.

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Yeah, i also don't care what they are called, so long as we all know what we are talking about. I have built tensioned contact coils ranging from 1 mm to 2 mm, and have called all of them micro's. with all due respect to Superx, i will continue to call them that, because colloquially speaking, my vaping buddies know what it refers to. When i write on the internet i usually use the phrase t.m.c and in my head i am thinking tensioned micro coil, and not tensioned mini coil. I just found it amusing, that according to the chart there is a strict cutoff and that once you go over 1/16th, you have left microland.

The technical definition from the micro coil 10,000+ page thread is that a micro coil has an i.d. of not less than .055" nor more than 0.065", leaving a couple of options above the 1/16". I do know exactly how you feel Maz, because I felt the same way. However, from my experience, to my utter consternation, I do get a better vape on the smaller mandrels, than I did on the 5/64". It is easier to create the Effect on the smaller size. I didn't believe it and went to great lengths to find a flaw in the reasoning, going out of my to build my own coiler (see my blog). Smaller is better, imho, YMMV, but the physics of the thing tells the story, as Mac alluded to. I was not amused when "the gang" jumped on me, quite the opposite. I'm stubborn that way, but I did come around, and did discover, to my own disbelief, that the under 0.065" sized mandrels really did perform better for me. I have now heard this same comment hundreds of times from ECF members, many of whom are not follow the leader types. All I can suggest is just to keep an open mind and experiment for yourself, and see what works best. I make all the coils my family of vapers and they all noticed an improvement when we switched to the smaller t.m.c. Give it a try, my friend, you might like it! Best regards!

 

[f1vefour]

I find how a coil performs is dependent on the applied power.

I can get the same vape from 0.8mm as 2mm depending on the way it's wicked, the surface area of the coil, and how much power is applied.

The great thing about a microcoil to me is the speedy heat up time, the more compact it is the more the wraps absorb neighboring wraps heat. When you have a true contact microcoil the above effect is even more pronounced.

 

[cigatron]

I find how a coil performs is dependent on the applied power.

I can get the same vape from 0.8mm as 2mm depending on the way it's wicked, the surface area of the coil, and how much power is applied.

The great thing about a microcoil to me is the speedy heat up time, the more compact it is the more the wraps absorb neighboring wraps heat. When you have a true contact microcoil the above effect is even more pronounced.

Right on, I find that the combination of wattage/voltage selection and proper draw effort (negative pressure) based on airhole opening size have greater impact on vape quality than coil diameter.ymmv
I may however revisit the 1/16" tmc as I now have 29awg on order and because BMV and others seem to advocate it so strongly. Just not liking the idea of bowtie wicks or wick tucking to stave off the dreaded kpt leaks as I will never go back to flavor(less) wicks. Did I say never? Torn between two evils I guess.
I am really enjoying the kgd with its ease of wicking and longer wick lifespan when using 5/64" coils; especially when vaping some of my dirtier NETs.

 

[Mazinny]

The technical definition from the micro coil 10,000+ page thread is that a micro coil has an i.d. of not less than .055" nor more than 0.065", leaving a couple of options above the 1/16". I do know exactly how you feel Maz, because I felt the same way. However, from my experience, to my utter consternation, I do get a better vape on the smaller mandrels, than I did on the 5/64". It is easier to create the Effect on the smaller size. I didn't believe it and went to great lengths to find a flaw in the reasoning, going out of my to build my own coiler (see my blog). Smaller is better, imho, YMMV, but the physics of the thing tells the story, as Mac alluded to. I was not amused when "the gang" jumped on me, quite the opposite. I'm stubborn that way, but I did come around, and did discover, to my own disbelief, that the under 0.065" sized mandrels really did perform better for me. I have now heard this same comment hundreds of times from ECF members, many of whom are not follow the leader types. All I can suggest is just to keep an open mind and experiment for yourself, and see what works best. I make all the coils my family of vapers and they all noticed an improvement when we switched to the smaller t.m.c. Give it a try, my friend, you might like it! Best regards!

I didn't realize that there's more to it than just nomenclature. I actually don't have an opinion one way or another, as to whether contact coils of i.d. 1.40 mm to 1.65 mm are superior to contact coils with an i.d. higher or lower than that range.

I have built coils both within and without the range, without noticing a difference in vape quality that i could attribute solely to that factor. But again, as i said in an earlier post, i wasn't comparing, while holding every other factor that is determinative in vape quality, constant.

I build most of my coils with an i.d. of 1.8 mm or 2.0 mm, because most of my builds go on a kanger coil, and i find it easier to work with, when my screwdriver is fitting snug into the slot. Cig prefers that i.d. for wicking reasons.

When i build a coil for the Taifun or Kayfun clones, i often build coils with an i.d that falls in the range. I have even gone lower ( nano's, i suppose according to the chart terminology ).

It's all good !

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Right on, I find that the combination of wattage/voltage selection and proper draw effort (negative pressure) based on airhole opening size have greater impact on vape quality than coil diameter.ymmv
I may however revisit the 1/16" tmc as I now have 29awg on order and because BMV and others seem to advocate it so strongly. Just not liking the idea of bowtie wicks or wick tucking to stave off the dreaded kpt leaks as I will never go back to flavor(less) wicks. Did I say never? Torn between two evils I guess.
I am really enjoying the kgd with its ease of wicking and longer wick lifespan when using 5/64" coils; especially when vaping some of my dirtier NETs.

Here's a thought. How about a vaporizer that you buy, at whatever cost, doesn't really matter, but that does what you want, so you can enjoy your vape? How about a regulated and integrated device that we buy, add a cartridge or something, and then we command the vaporizer to, "Vaporizer.....please increase my vapor output. More density please....warmer, warmer again.....need a double shot of nic now...ok, Vaporizer, entering public building, back down vapor, more....thank you vaporizer." Instead, we quibble about coil size, air flow, wicking materials, resistance, etc. I want a Smart Vaporizer, and I want our most talented engineers on the planet to get on this problem right now....pretty please? I've already had to learn about 101 things that I didn't need to know, just so I can have a great vape, and I'm pretty good at it too....but why?

Such a device would be priceless, would change the world, and no one would smoke....well, you know what I mean. Why? Because vaping would be magnitudes better in terms of experience and satisfaction. This isn't science fiction either. All of these technologies exist right now. We just need to do it. This new Unicorn/Dream Vaporizer would allow us to adjust the vape, not the elements that effect the vape, many of which can be, collectively, counter-productive. How about a real all-day battery? Shouldn't all vaporizers have a USB connection? OMG, why do we all have to become little mini-engineers, metal workers, electrical designers, fluid dynamics expert, etc., all to try to get a satisfying vape? Why doesn't all juice taste like the real thing? If I want strawberries and cream, why do 80% of the juices suck? I want a Smart Vaporizer that does what I command it to do, not learn circuit design and Bernoulli's Law. Why do vaporizers leak, wicks burn, coils short, etc.? Shouldn't someone smarter than I am work out all of these kinks and allow me to adjust the features of my vape, not the engineering of my vape? And, we're not even going in the right direction for this. Yes, we are miles ahead of where we were, but come'on, a device that is designed with the ability to adjust vapor and vapor temperature and vapor density and amount of nicotine (without changing juice), should be within the grasp of the world's brightest people. Let them do the engineering, I'll pay whatever they want, just give me what I want. Pretty please?

Oh, and smaller i.d. micro coils do work better. Bombarding a poorly performing coil and wick with massive wattage is not the same as achieving the effect with normal power levels. It's a physics problem, not an opinion, and YES, YMMV.

Good luck all and forgive my musings. I don't post too often anymore, but this has been on my mind.....