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Have you considered pre-made coils (NR-R-NR) from fasttech? They are rather popular with people who don't want to (ar are unable) to wind their own coils. They have a bunch of different resistances and coil I.D.s ready to be wicked and installed. Some even come pre-wicked with silica rope.
https://www.fasttech.com/products/1593911
The following is my understanding of hot legs, why they occur and why raking or cueing fixes them.
Alumina is a crystalline structure that forms on our resistance wire when heated that electrically isolates each turn from one another in a contact microcoil. When we tension wind a coil where the turns are held in a state of compressive strain (touching) some or all of the turns can be electrically shorted together untill the alumina forms during firing/pulsing. This shorting together of some or all the turns in a coil before the alumina forms completely results in hot legs and/or uneven firing of the turns. Why? Because the electrical current does not have to travel the entire length of the wire. Instead it takes the path of least resistance, jumping across from one shorted turn to another and bypasses a good deal of wire resistance. The small amount of heat generated in these shorted turns is readily absorbed by the greater mass of non-heated wire in the coil therefore no red color is developed in the coil but.....the legs will turn red because current is flowing through their entire length.
Alumina is quickly formed on the wire surface when the coil is heated but can only do so in the presence of oxygen. Both raking and cueing while the coil is hot are methods used to mechanically disturb the shorted junctions between the turns just enough to allow for oxygen to reach there. Alumina then forms in those previously unreachable areas and fully electrically isolates all the turns. The coil then fires from the center out and will likely never hot leg again.
Overly tensioned coils where the turns are held together with very high compressive strain are not required or desirable for the best vaping performance imo. Applying only enough tension to acquire diametrical uniformity and just enough wire feed angle to keep the turns in contact with one another seems to produce the best vapor production and coil longevity. I suspect that it has to do with the size and number of inter spacial voids created during the formation of alumina but alas.....I don't have access to micrography equipment to verify this.
Just to be clear, spaced coils never hot leg because there are no shorted turns. At least I have never seen it happen.
Hope this helps,
cig
Great post cig and appreciate much of your validation. Disagree with you on raking and oxygen. Plenty of oxygen around for oxidation. If not please send or post the literature confirming the absence of it between mated alumina layers under the kind of pressures we're applying. I've yet to encounter it. But I'd suggest not to waste the time. Or for users here to waste the time on it either.
I agree with you raking can disrupt the over-stressing that threw the t.m.c. off alignment. Pop it back into place like a Slinky.
The goal of a tension wind is to create an optimal proximity. It can be easily done in seconds. I've shown you how. If we fail to do it, why do we need to fix it?
Most people can easily beat my feeble 55% success rate. If a subtle rake or two doesn't immediately induce the effect, done! That's what I've recommended for most of this year. I'm not going to go into the host of over-tensioning models I've described which manifest these thermal shorts. Why? For the purpose of understanding what skew does to a wind for example. And to demonstrate the difficulties involved in dealing with a compromised wind. Never intended it as practice. Want to fix it for ha-ha's. Have at it.
Every application of additional stress or pressure on a t.m.c. risks further distortion of the wind. It either works immediately which likely suggests that the energy input did not fatally mangle it or it doesn't. More stress added to the wire than used to create it and it's usually catastrophic.
Most of the distortions we can introduce through handling will only further disrupt adhesion. If that happens you don't have a t.m.c. and won't see the upwards of 20% efficiency gains that are possible. You'll have a close contact coil with the net energy losses attendant. Not a better vape than a good symmetrical tensioned spaced wind. You've lost the even distribution of energy to the wick.
Rewind. Or use the back up. You know the one I suggested a few days back we all wind. Your vape'll live longer. And you'll savor your vape more with more time on your hands.
I'd rather chill and enjoy the vape.
Good luck and Happy Holidays!
They do not do what a tensioned micro coil does.
Good luck and Happy Holidays!
p.s. This is the Protank Microcoil thread. We actually do like to make coils here.
They do not do what a tensioned micro coil does.
Good luck and Happy Holidays!
p.s. This is the Protank Microcoil thread. We actually do like to make coils here.
I know--sorry Mac... It was not my intention to derail the thread--just to hopefully help somebody who can't wind his own coils.
No worries but thanks K. Not against anyone having a chance at the table. MOF I've got an inbound from FT right now which it looks like might have gone haywire. LOL Speaking of which, I know people rave about those coils from FT but I really could not endorse folks relying on them because of concerns over composition. Heck I'm leary enough vaping half the stuff I sample from over there and transition to originals asap. Wire as cheap as it is and as easy as it is on this thread to make a coil just doesn't make sense to me.
Also making the coil is not even half the battle. This thread I think has been a great exposition of knowledge by a number of us on why our hardware misbehaves and how to deal with it. So having a decent coil doesn't quite get you there. Not if you want to have the vape of your life. And I'd like them all to have it.
But you're right some users need a good reliable pre made coil.
Thanks for the ack.
Good luck and Happy Holidays!
Katya thanks for the suggestion, but Mac is right. I have already told my friend we will make it work together. I am thinking for him at least the Gizmo may be the way to go. We watched super_X's video on the Gizmo and he is confident he can hold the wire spool under tension. I believe if he can he certainly can make a t.m.c. and reap it's benifits.
Here's some examples of coils wound with the diy cigamajig V2. I'm sure they're not perfect but they work good enough for me.
View attachment 396095
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cig
View attachment 396095
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cig
Mac, please refrain from taking my posts out of context and posting unrelated objections. If you re-read my "hot legs and alumina" post it should be clear that I was describing alumina formation and lack of oxygen between NON-oxidized compressed wire turns. Raking works because oxygen is allowed into those non-oxidized areas and alumina finally forms there. If you have a different theory why contact microcoils hot leg and/or misfire then after raking/cueing begin to fire correctly, fine; the burden of proof is on you. Do tell.
I'm going to continue posting what I consider useful information to folks here and elsewhere. The things that I feel will help them attain to a great vape and understand how and why they got there. Sometimes it may be a little techy but one thing I will never tell them is how they should use their time. Each of us only truly owns one thing on this planet; his or her own time. Don't appreciate anyone telling me what I should do with it; not even an "icon".
Rant complete,
cig
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Cig, would love to see pics, I've seen your coils, wish mine will look that good. Could you redo something went wrong and pics not there.
Live long and Vape
Live long and Vape
I have few vaping friends but do share my knowledge with the ones I have. Tried to teach a friend how to make a tmc for her PT a few weeks ago. Made her one and she loved it. She came over for a demo and as I was teaching her she had a hard time, complained the whole time "I can't see good, I can't grip this or that, I can't believe you go through all of this..yada yada ya" She never did get it right but I gave her the one I used for the demo. She called me later that day and excitedly told me she found PT coils at Fasttech for less than 4 a box and she ordered 5 boxes giving her 25 coils for $20. She said "you can afford $20 why not get those and stop doing all that nonsense stuff." 
Fast forward to this week when she calls to tell me half of the coils are bad in the boxes and they taste bad and some will not work at all. She admits she is using the one I made her and just changing the cotton and now wants to try to learn to build again.
Fast forward to this week when she calls to tell me half of the coils are bad in the boxes and they taste bad and some will not work at all. She admits she is using the one I made her and just changing the cotton and now wants to try to learn to build again.
Links not working Cig
Here's some examples of coils wound with the diy cigamajig V2. I'm sure they're not perfect but they work good enough for me.
View attachment 396095
View attachment 396096View attachment 396097View attachment 396098
I have few vaping friends but do share my knowledge with the ones I have. Tried to teach a friend how to make a tmc for her PT a few weeks ago. Made her one and she loved it. She came over for a demo and as I was teaching her she had a hard time, complained the whole time "I can't see good, I can't grip this or that, I can't believe you go through all of this..yada yada ya" She never did get it right but I gave her the one I used for the demo. She called me later that day and excitedly told me she found PT coils at Fasttech for less than 4 a box and she ordered 5 boxes giving her 25 coils for $20. She said "you can afford $20 why not get those and stop doing all that nonsense stuff."
Fast forward to this week when she calls to tell me half of the coils are bad in the boxes and they taste bad and some will not work at all. She admits she is using the one I made her and just changing the cotton and now wants to try to learn to build again.
Sounds like she has a lifetime of cores to build on! Lol
My sister was stubborn like that. Happy with her V2 ecigs. "I have a Mini Protank and an Ego battery, it's not all that much better", she said. I delivered a shi tzu puppy to her 12 weeks ago and while I was there rebuilt her mpt. She never looked back. She dryburns and rewicks it and wants me to come back to show her how to rebuild.
My brother was a little stubborn too. He was rock'n on ce4 top coil clearos and spinner batts. He's rebuilding kangers now and upgraded to box mods. He said his favorite thing to do is walk into vape shops and out vape folks with kayfuns, taifuns and 91's. Been there, done that. Big smile.
cig
Hey Cig, really nice looking t.m.c. coils. You should do a video showing us how u build a coil with the Cigamajig V2?
Live long and Vape
Hey guys, does anyone have these soft pliers in there tool box, they could come in handy?
Amazon.com: Double Nylon Jaw Flat Nose Pliers
Amazon.com: Double Nylon Jaw Flat Nose Pliers
Dan, the V2 is identical to the original but has two set screws for interchangeable mandrels. The V2 can handle any drill bit/mandrel from .9mm-3mm. The coil in the first pic is 30awg wound on .9mm! Nano coil baby! Got to figure out how to get my images clearer when posted here. They are crystal clear on my camera.
Ya, I need to do vids. The cigamajig is not so much a tabletop winder even though it will work there as sxd demonstrated. It's really a bellybutton winder! Maximum leverage and control for even tension winding is achieved when used right in front of your belly.
cig
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Mac, please refrain from taking my posts out of context and posting unrelated objections. If you re-read my "hot legs and alumina" post it should be clear that I was describing alumina formation and lack of oxygen between NON-oxidized compressed wire turns. Raking works because oxygen is allowed into those non-oxidized areas and alumina finally forms there. If you have a different theory why contact microcoils hot leg and/or misfire then after raking/cueing begin to fire correctly, fine; the burden of proof is on you. Do tell.
I'm going to continue posting what I consider useful information to folks here and elsewhere. The things that I feel will help them attain to a great vape and understand how and why they got there. Sometimes it may be a little techy but one thing I will never tell them is how they should use their time. Each of us only truly owns one thing on this planet; his or her own time. Don't appreciate anyone telling me what I should do with it; not even an "icon".
Rant complete,
Hey cig I thought my answer to you was thoughtful and courteous. And nothing was taken out of context.
But if you believe that raking somehow delivers more oxygen to the equation expediting oxidation, I'd honestly like to know how.
I would think you'd acknowledge that the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate there's no oxygen there. It's your assertion. There is always oxygen present on the surface of unoxidized Kanthal to my understanding, on everything. In fact unoxidized is an erroneous concept from the jump. Kanthal is already oxidized the minute it's produced and encounters air as it starts to build a passivation layer instantly and bears oxygen within. It is an honest question for me and not a put down.
So I fail to see how raking makes any more oxygen available or contributes significantly to it. You made it necessary for me to clarify the precise reason why raking was thought to be useful on this thread in the first place. And it has nothing to do with oxygen availability but the friction holding a disfigured coil out of orientation. And that distinction is important to this thread. I wasn't changing the subject but returning the conversation to its original premises.
It took me a while to answer SxD and acknowledge he was on to something with raking. Many man-hours were devoted by myself, interns and end-users I've worked with researching exactly what raking does. Both pulsing the coils to oxidation but seeing the effect of raking under resistance measurement. I'm not pulling facts out of a hat here. The result being that raking seemed to free distorted coils back into symmetry with or without any electrical stimulus or inducement to oxidation whatsoever, under measurement and with the minute measurement current, either way. Just raking the coils on a carto-meter or mod.
My constant recommendation since has been that we make the simple effort to wind t.m.c.'s correctly. As I point out, it's better to learn the proper body mechanics than think that you're going to be better at correcting a bad wind than just doing a good one in the first place. I've written extensively on the risks of manipulating wound t.m.c.'s. I was reiterating those risks and the odds of fallibility.
In context, as few have the time to read this entire thread, t.m.c.'s may sometimes exhibit erratic resistance results until their surface is more fully oxidized. Raking as a means to get them to read out at their wire length resistance correctly came into play during a period when very malleable grommets were being substituted by Kanger and others. This was causing all manner of problems with lead slip, etc. To counter I recommended tighter builds (coil set and tension winds, both) to better fix termination but it resulted in over-heated performance. Normally speaking with appropriate tension raking is virtually unnecessary in a clearo build. It has more utility on other devices where the placement of free leads often imparts tension back into the wind as in a set for a dripper.
You have a right to contribute your thoughts and much is appreciated cig. So I said.
Nobody is discouraging your posts and no disrespect was meant. Just an honest disagreement and tryin' to keep things on track as to why we do things.
Vape on.
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