Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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MacTechVpr

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Folks, admittedly there are some things I just can't explain. Like why wicking heavier in any rta encourages the larger size and quicker transition of air bubbles into the tank. This allows for much speedier juice flow and allows for higher power levels before dry hits. I just don't understand it; seems counter intuitive but it works.

I do believe you answered your own question. :D I say, think garden hose.

My discussions on deflection are all about creating that kind of compression on wick media, short of choking the wick. A large part of what my study of wicks and wind diameters have been about. So after a few of these…well, I start to have a little bit of a sense about how they flow. Like snow, when you've seen it enough times you begin to marvel at the complexity and variety of a snowflake.

Not necessarily scientific cig, I'll agree. But sometimes intuitive derives from revelation. That is, once you see it one believes it. But I place my faith in the scientific approach. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Twisteds have been my favorite these past 18 months. Hard to get adhesion but what you get just multiplies vapor and voila…dense, cool volume at any temperature. Parallel twisted leads just allow refining the outcome of temperature with a predictable uniformity of contact, preserving and magnifying the tension effect. It's a beautiful thing.

Now if I can just convince Mr. Dampmaskin that there two new coil architectures his calculator can't predict the outcome for.

Wish us luck.

:)
 
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MacTechVpr

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Thinking of spreading the turns apart a tiny bit to cool things down and add a little more temp predictability to this wind. Effeciency will suffer for sure, albeit minimally imo.

I agree with you. It will be more temperature predictable. It will also fire inside out and likely stay that way.

No I don't think you'll experience a loss in efficiency but the opposite. A micro that continues to fire like it's being oxidized, will likely stay an incompletely insulated semi-contact coil. That's why adhesion, as in most proximate contact, is optimal and necessary.

There's no sense trying to make a tensioned multi-wire without adequate adhesion. And I can't tell ya exactly how much that is for a given twained wind. Too many variables. Only that interlacing the knurls formed by the twists seems to somewhat help mating up the surfaces. On occasion you get lucky and there will be just enough contact and enough uniformity in oxidation resulting for the thing to fire like a t.m.c. and see the cooling effect of the twains optimized. That's why I continued making them trying to perfect a manual process for duplicating that. If it doesn't work, the winds fail and will go hotter than a twained pair should be. The advantage of better distribution through contact surface is lost (an overabundance of heat for the flow) and you have the equivalent of an over-tensioned micro.


331365d1398977169-micro-coils-increase-vapor-flavor-th-img_0800a.jpg



Love twisted but I end up tossin' half of them for that reason. Until I started implementing twisted lead t.m.c.'s in Aug. Those I don't toss. They've been the durability and performance leaders of all that I've run.

So I kinda understand why open coil advocates insist its all about the wick not the wind. In the real world they are not mutually exclusive. Spacing per se doesn't cool things down nor is it a substitute for airflow, don't reduce gunk or add flavor. The present Subtank coils should clearly demonstrate that. What cools things down is efficient vaporization. And this means achieving a thoughtful measured optimization of the coil.

Good luck.

:)
 
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cigatron

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Put a new build on the mini this morning. Intermittent contact prob raised its ugly head. It's not the coil or build. It's the rba pos pin coming loose from the rba base. As a general rule I never remove the rba base when building or rewicking. I just don't get how that pos pin unscrews when it's trapped between the rba base and the 510 base pin. It does though...this is the second time it's happened even though I tighten the crap out of it.

Could this have caused the burnt insulators? I think so if the high resistivity in the circuit occurs at the threading of the pos pin and pos deck post. My res readings went from normal to 5.2ohms and everywhere in between within just a half dozen vapes.

Tightened everything up and all is well now. It's a little scary though because when APVs are in wattage mode and see a high res they will crank up the voltage to maintain wattage. In my case it was putting out 50w when it saw higher than actual res although I had it set to 20w. Can't image what would happen with 150w APVs when that happens. Just say'n and I hope you're listn'n.

Side note: If your coil is not firing from the center out when you know it should be your rba pos pin could be loose. It adds resistivity to the pos side of the circuit and shifts the res center toward the pos side (guessing here). Mine was doing that so I fiddled with the post screws until it stopped. Turns out that was coincidental and there was an underlying problem.

Cig
 

MacTechVpr

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Put a new build on the mini this morning. Intermittent contact prob raised its ugly head. It's not the coil or build. It's the rba pos pin coming loose from the rba base. As a general rule I never remove the rba base when building or rewicking. I just don't get how that pos pin unscrews when it's trapped between the rba base and the 510 base pin. It does though...this is the second time it's happened even though I tighten the crap out of it.

Could this have caused the burnt insulators? I think so if the high resistivity in the circuit occurs at the threading of the pos pin and pos deck post. My res readings went from normal to 5.2ohms and everywhere in between within just a half dozen vapes.

Tightened everything up and all is well now. It's a little scary though because when APVs are in wattage mode and see a high res they will crank up the voltage to maintain wattage. In my case it was putting out 50w when it saw higher than actual res although I had it set to 20w. Can't image what would happen with 150w APVs when that happens. Just say'n and I hope you're listn'n.

Side note: If your coil is not firing from the center out when you know it should be your rba pos pin could be loose. It adds resistivity to the pos side of the circuit and shifts the res center toward the pos side (guessing here). Mine was doing that so I fiddled with the post screws until it stopped. Turns out that was coincidental and there was an underlying problem.

Cig

Well put. And worth keeping an eye on. I've had two instances of my device going acrid dry vape. The first at the first fill. I assumed possible cotton collapse and intermittent wick contact. Also checked the insulator. Propped up wick ends with some tufts of cotton, re-juiced and rejoiced that all's been well. But it was disconcerting. Shame they dispensed with the spring loaded pin. Quality act there.

I'll keep a watch on the res now cig. Thank you.

Good luck all.

:)
 

cigatron

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Back to spaced coils and heat. I have experienced a hotter than expected vape from spaced winds but it always came down to under wicking. Wick them heavier and soring heat probs seem to go away. That said, I have always found contact coils to be hotter than spaced but have always attributed it to higher efficiency because of proximity of turns. So I have always been able to run at lower wattage with contact winds and still produce equivalent heat to spaced winds at slightly higher wattage. Could it be that I have never successfully wound a true tmc?
 

cigatron

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I now approve the mini at 25w. As if anyone cares....lol

My previous 30awg twisted is running much cooler now after separating the turns minutely. Wicked even heavier than previously posted. I had to roll the cotton down a little with my fingers just to get it to pull through without distorting the coil. Vapes great now. No spitting or popping, cool dense vapor and good flavor. Metallic taste is almost gone.
 
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MacTechVpr

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Back to spaced coils and heat. I have experienced a hotter than expected vape from spaced winds but it always came down to under wicking. Wick them heavier and soring heat probs seem to go away. That said, I have always found contact coils to be hotter than spaced but have always attributed it to higher efficiency because of proximity of turns. So I have always been able to run at lower wattage with contact winds and still produce equivalent heat to spaced winds at slightly higher wattage. Could it be that I have never successfully wound a true tmc?

It would seem that Kanger agrees with you. As they're royally packin' their hula-hoops. And don't get me wrong. I'm not panning spaced winds in my post above. There are juices I've liked in that config. If they're made rationally so they don't short or heat air, we're golden. I kinda see them though as kinda like puttin' the big pan on the small burner on the stove. You've got all that extra wick and vaporization potential sittin' idle (geometric volume potential for the device).

The wire can't carry any more energy whether the wind is opened or closed. If we're able to knock down the wattage as I've successfully done here with this most recent build it's due to the the wind more effectively conducting energy to the wick (less dispersion) as State-of-Flux aptly explained with the spread candle analogy on his blog.

Could it be that I have never successfully wound a true tmc?

Brother, you have no idea how many times I've asked myself that question. When is "sticky", (S)ticky?

The phenomenon that super_X_drifter described and I watched from afar trying to decide whther to quit, invest or dismiss was…stability of the micro occurred. When he got to proximate contact with compression it stopped being overly hot which was happening with close contact. Not only was the input energy enough to sustain shape but to nominally retain turn-to-turn contact. Then vapor production exploded. Well you might say this is impossible. It's the same current? Same wire mass? Same resistance? We know all of these are the same and if different, only ever so slightly. I thought so.

What I described as the rubber test is vape temperature. If you experience the radical drop of vape temperature accompanying that increase in production, you're there. No further Watts needed. A faster more complete phase transition of the flow has occurred. That is the observable explanation.

Before I achieved my first micro, I reasoned as you did above. Wire's hotter, so there must be more vapor output. I now disagree. When wire gets too hot for the flow, vapor is dispersed. You heat air. You experience post-vaporiztion diffusion. Not necessarily more vapor. And often it sours (or mutes) the flavor as with an overheated segment.

Now wait a minute, you're gonna say, micro's are hotter (concentration). Yep, but they work. And I'm sure you've built more than a few that have exhibited the above thermal characteristics.

In the absence of the t.mc. the main criteria we've been concerned with is resistance. But there is more involved in the vaporization process than resistance or simply line energy. I've tried to encourage folks to consider it more like cooking because we have a lot of similarities there in the physics. And its the new vapor we must want to see get right quickly.

Bro, I'm happy to acknowledge I'm not the best cook at the stove here. I prob miss hitting sticky more often than you'd think. But it's not from lack of knowing where it lives. I strongly recommend new users learn to wind by hand because it is ridiculously easy to find that strain level necessary for a given wire. And once you find it it's Memorex. We have an astoundingly efficient hard drive. However, for some of us recovering and executing those motor memories is sometimes difficult. Also, when you make a lot of them you can overdo it. Often that results in making a bunch of very tight winds which'll light up end-to-end, post to post. And you would be right, that is not sticky.

We're looking at a rather narrow shallow curve where wick/wire/power are matched to a rapid escalation in interior pressure of the coil/wick. That's where the effect resides. As open winds are made symmetrical they can take advantage of tighter more directional wicking. And in such wick density proves to be an improvement in production.

When I see these massive cloud comp exhibitions on video and the magnitude of vapor crashing to the deck whatdayathink just happened?

:D

I think we both know.
 

Katya

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you know I did consider the Erlkonigan awhile back. Thinking that is the one that you twist the drip tip to fill? Tell me what you think is good about it:)

Sorry chanel--I couldn't see your post through all those ST clouds. ;)

All I know about this baby Erl is that I wanted one, had it in my cart at FT for over a month, and when I finally pulled the trigger it was too late. So I'm hoping that they will bring it back at some point--I was told that their supplier is experiencing production problems. Oy.
 

Katya

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Listen C that great 29g 9/10 turn on .07" puts any new vaper within minutes in the flavor zone. They're right there experiencing some of the best at 12W that vaping can deliver. A standard Sig and a PT2 or Aero can deliver almost as much flavor and vapor volume as some of the other tanks I'm now looking at. It's kind of amazing that a simple tool and nature can help us do that but there it is.

The fact that so many of you now are in a position to pass that gift along to others is a wonderful thing. I wish I could've walked into that 18 months ago.

Vape on and pass it on!

Good luck.

:)


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And back on topic! :)

A question for y'all master coil builders. I understand that the above is the ultimate build for the PT. I want to rebuild my Kanger dual coil atty. I have the V1 coil heads with whiskers which are easy to deconstruct, but I'm not sure about the ID of the coil I need to wind to fill that big gap where two coils were originally seated, one on top of the other. I've seen people making oval coils (around a zip tie or taped together two 1/16 drill bits) which fit perfectly in the DC slot, but I know nothing about oval coils and how the behave. Good idea? Bad idea?

A friend told me that he winds single coils, 2.4 mm ID, and they fit just right in DC atties.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, and thank you Mac et al. for this thread. I've learned a lot from it!
 
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chanelvaps

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hahaha I have had a few in carts too in fact I had a pink one in a cart somewhere
Sorry chanel--I couldn't see your post through all those ST clouds. ;)

All I know about this baby Erl is that I wanted one, had it in my cart at FT for over a month, and when I finally pulled the trigger it was too late. So I'm hoping that they will bring it back at some point--I was told that their supplier is experiencing production problems. Oy.
 

brookj1986

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Back off topic. My st mini, I got 30 gauge parallel coil with twained lead around 2.5 mm mandrel at 0.9 ohms. Wicked with rayon ... a good chunk of rayon. I'm actually struggling to push the wattage. That said 15.5 watts is hurling vapor. 18.5 it tastes a bit like burning. Unicorn milk 70/30. I'm going to try twisted 30 gauge tensioned parallel coil on a 2.2 mm mandrel. Aim for 0.5-0.6 ohm.
 

Katya

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Back off topic. My st mini, I got 30 gauge parallel coil with twained lead around 2.5 mm mandrel at 0.9 ohms. Wicked with rayon ... a good chunk of rayon. I'm actually struggling to push the wattage. That said 15.5 watts is hurling vapor. 18.5 it tastes a bit like burning. Unicorn milk 70/30. I'm going to try twisted 30 gauge tensioned parallel coil on a 2.2 mm mandrel. Aim for 0.5-0.6 ohm.

:offtopic:

Topic! Thank you brookj! That was the word I wanted... :facepalm:

Never mind me. I'm slowly losing it.

Hi Mac! :)

Carry on.
 

MacTechVpr

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thread way way way too long but my 2 cents I always straighten my kanthal before wrapping coils
easier to deal with
especially at these high gauge very thin wires for pro tank 2's ewww springie wire not fun....
lastly protanks are not for fancy coil building learned from experience !!

CP thanks for your thoughts. There's a wealth of information on this thread not found anywhere else on this forum. It's here for the taking by the wise and an advanced search away.

My focus has been on introducing the tensioned microcoil as the means to get new vapers rebuilding successfully now. Some seem to think it's helped. That's enough for me.

Good luck.

:)
 

MacTechVpr

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Definitely helps me!

Did help me for sure. :)

Thanks again, Mac!


Thanks ladies! All I've tried to do is pass on a sense of balance and proportion. Getting new vapers to build a simple productive and repeatable wind they can count on. The fact that we can build this tight little furnace every time helps us evaluate everything we splurge on. And Lord knows we like shiny especially when we're starting out. So it's about helping them get it right, each and every time, so they can make some sense of this. And I can't escape the connection that like a pressure cooker we're concentrating the product (vapor) and consequently the outcome (flavor!) just like we do so successfully using a little kitchen science.

:D

Enjoy the vape, and pass it on!


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Katya

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Cooking and knitting. :D

You see I got that whole tension thing right away, instinctively. I used to knit--in my previous life. :) Proper and consistent yarn tension is absolutely critical in knitting. Too much tension and your sweater will look and feel like a stiff piece of felt. Not enough tension, and the same sweater will by loose, ugly, uneven and will not keep you warm--and will stretch like crazy. If your tension changes while you are knitting, and your gauge is off by even a fraction of an inch, you will end up with a garment that does not fit.

You can always tell a homemade sweater from a machine knitted one--only machines can keep yarn tension consistent throughout the entire project.
 

TafkanX

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Well, I had some device issues and fell off the bandwagon for about 6 months or so, but I recently revamped my kit and have been back off of the death sticks for about a week now. It's a little but harder this time around since the novelty factor is long since past, but I'm getting back into the swing of things. Quite a few new devices and implements have come out during my hiatus so I'm playing catch-up now. I got a stable dual coil setup going and it's performing tolerably, but I'm a little out of practice so it's not quite where I like it just yet. I have a DNA 20 device in the mail so I hope that will breathe new life into my experience. I look forward to reading about new techniques that have been developed in my absence.
 
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