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Provari on an Oscope vs Vamo

Discussion in 'ProVari' started by GrimmTech, Feb 14, 2013.

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  1. TheArtist
    This message by TheArtist has been removed from public view. Deleted by a moderator, Mar 2, 2014, Reason: Unregistered Supplier.
    Jun 4, 2013
  2. Rader2146

    Rader2146 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 11, 2012
    Waco, TX
    I dont mean to burst any bubbles or anything, but someone who knows the inner workings or a voltage converter might call that creative marketing. ;) I'd venture to say that they won the patent for being the first to adapt the technology to e-cigs, not because it was a groundbreaking discovery in the world of voltage regulation.

    It's not that the Provari has "AccuSet Technology" or that chinese mods dont. Any quality voltage converter will do the same thing as the Provari. It's called a feedback loop and has been in use LONG before the Provari was even a concept.

    Monitor the the output voltage, adjust accordingly, repeat the process thousands of times per second, when the voltage can no longer be kept within tolerance...shutdown. That's a feedback loop in a nutshell.

    Chinese mods use a feedback loop too, but it is implemented in a different way. What makes chinese mods lose voltage as the battery drains is inferior components and an inferior conversion process (the entire process is different than the Provari, chinese mods essentially have 2 converters, a boost converter immediately followed by a buck converter instead of just 1 integrated boost-buck converter). As the battery drains the amp requirement from the battery increases. Inferior components cant handle the amp requirement so the chinese boost converter isnt able to achieve it's goal of 6.0V and output voltage suffers.
     
  3. TheArtist
    This message by TheArtist has been removed from public view. Deleted by a moderator, Mar 2, 2014, Reason: Unregistered Supplier.
    Jun 4, 2013
  4. Tommy Aces

    Tommy Aces Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 28, 2013
    Connecticut
    I don't think Bad or anyone else thinks that the "AccuSet" is anything groundbreaking in the world of electronics in general, but simply using ProVape's terminology and info. What you said, while informative lends to exactly what has been said; The Chinese mods are using inferior circutry.

    Edit: And don't worry, you didn't burst my bubble. :2cool:
     
  5. Rader2146

    Rader2146 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 11, 2012
    Waco, TX
    Correct, and I wasn't disagreeing with anyone in regards to inferior or superior. Just stating (maybe in too many words) that AccuSet is not the reason that the Provari can hold it's voltage until the end of the battery charge.
     
  6. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Apr 8, 2012
    Ridgeway, Ohio
    My bubble's are burst. :(:cry::unsure:








    Psyche!! :p I don't care how Provape does it, I'm just glad that they do it. The only bubbles that are busted over here is the bubblewrap the Provari's come shipped with.
     
  7. Tommy Aces

    Tommy Aces Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 28, 2013
    Connecticut
    I know. And don't worry, I wasn't coming at you. I always appreciate good info from someone that knows more about electronics than I do.
     
  8. Harplayr

    Harplayr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2012
    Illinois
    True that closed loop feedback systems have been around for decades (I used to work as an engineer for motor control systems that use closed loop regulation on several levels.) That said it is indeed one of the things that makes the Provari such a good device.
     
  9. SuperDave68

    SuperDave68 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 16, 2013
    Spokane,WA
    okay,
    so i am the curious type, i decided to throw the evic on the scope to see what was going on. i couldn't take pics because i didn't have a resistor high enough power, so i had to hold the leads on the aga terminals while firing.

    so i started out with a battery at %50, had the evic set to 9 w with a 1.8 ohm coil, the evic said it was outputing 4.02 v.
    hit the fire button, and got some strange results, for the first second i saw the pulse wavform superimposed on the DC signal with a amplitude of about .5 v then it went to a solid line, at about 3.9 V (DC) I am guessing what it is doing is the buck circuit cuts in at first then switches over to the boost circuit, probably just a linear regulator by looking at the smooth dc coming out.

    so, in the boost mode, the evic looks to be just as good as the provari, albeit the voltage is off by about .1 volts. this would explain why in boost mode the power drops off.

    then i put a fresh bat in (4.17 v charge) and repeated the measurement. this time i got a clear 100 khz waveform, this time about 1 v pp on top of the dc output, so the voltage was varing + . 5 v above the setting and .5v below at a 100kz rate.

    so it looks like the evic is a pretty good chineese apv, you just have to re-adj when the battery gets below the output setting, however, the evic is not cheap. it cost's almost as much as the provari, no warranty/repair service, and is known for it's fagile head construction.

    don't get my wrong, i love my evic, i love having all information on one screen and avail with one button press, this was the main reason i bought it.

    but the provari wins the voltage regulation contest hands down. I just ordered one today and look very much forward to vaping on it. :)
     
  10. r77r7r

    r77r7r ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 15, 2011
    Pa,LandOfTaxes
    Well, the SVD price came down in the VAMO range now. How about putting one of these on an O-Scope?
     
  11. SuperDave68

    SuperDave68 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 16, 2013
    Spokane,WA
    well, i am pretty much set with my provari and my evic, so i don't have any need or interest in buying a SVD. If someone wants to send me one for testing i would be glad to do that and then send it back to them.
     
  12. Harplayr

    Harplayr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2012
    Illinois
    Pbasardo did this in his review. It's the standard Chinese 33hz that we see on most of them.
    Go to time stamp 22:20 to see the waveform

     
  13. Rickajho

    Rickajho ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 23, 2011
    Boston MA
    Have the 'scope tests ever been regurgitated with a Vamo V2 (or higher) running in RMS mode?
     
  14. dam718

    dam718 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 30, 2012
    Hawaii
    Because the Vamo V2+ uses the same 33.3Hz PWM chip that nearly every Chinese manufacturer is using, you can get an idea of what the RMS output looks like on PBusardo's SVD review. It's the same, 0-6V pulses... Just using the RMS algorithm instead of a basic average measurement.
     
  15. WarHawk-AVG

    WarHawk-AVG Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 27, 2013
    H-Town
    I wonder if a 10vdc 10uf capacitor as an AC ripple filter on the head of the Vamo would smooth that square wave down, well, if you could fit it in the head (internally) anyway...hmmm

    TAP106K025SCS-VP: TAP Capacitor Tantalum Radial 10uf 25VDC 10%: Jameco Valuepro

    It would smooth the ripple but might put an unneeded load resulting in lower than expected delivery to the coil of course...

    [​IMG]
    Gonna have to figure out the math...now that I have a Vamo as a spare...I can play with it to see if a capacitor soldered between the leads inside can do for that horrible square wave...might be able to smooth it out a bit...or blow up :p
     
  16. Rickajho

    Rickajho ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 23, 2011
    Boston MA
    Being that a V2 can be run in PWM mode or switched to RMS, and at least to me there is a significant difference in how it performs between the two, I'm really curious to see what that would look like on a 'scope. I haven't been able to find out the technical dirt on what they put in a V2 for the RMS mode. It's a hugely smoother vape as RMS. It loses all that 33 Hz harshness typical of any PWM I have.
     
  17. WarHawk-AVG

    WarHawk-AVG Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 27, 2013
    H-Town
    That's because its hitting like a pure DC power source (the .05 VDC ripple is so minute the 1/100th of a watt fluctuation doesn't matter to the juice)This is why the Vamo has that "rattlesnake" off/on/off/on at 33.3hz..

    Imagine the effect it would have on your eyes if you turned your headlights on your car on and off at 33.3hz vs on constant with minimal voltage ripple...remember the old 60hz CRT flicker...yeah...WOW!

    A ripple capacitor could help...but as others have said..that "extra" to put it in would cost more...people want cheap and now...I know...I got a Vamo too, but guarandangtee you WILL taste the difference between a cheapo Chinese 33.3hz vs the Provari's 800hz!

    Thus the "night and day" reports of the vape quality from Vamo to Provari ;)

    Viva Vaping E-zine Article 'Dave - UKV' <- explanation of the "RMS" method of PWM's
     
  18. dam718

    dam718 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 30, 2012
    Hawaii
    In RMS, it actually fires the coil a little less than in average. So 4.0V in average mode was the equivalent of 4.5V RMS. Those numbers aren't exact, but you get the idea. What you thought was 4V was firing the coil quite a bit higher. Even in RMS mode, it still fires with the on/off 0-6V square wave.

    As for the capacitor in the circuit, I don't think it would make any difference at all based on the behavior of the circuit. It's not a sine wave, it's more "digital" in nature... It's either on, or off... So on the low peak of 0V, the capacitor can't raise the low peak because there is no voltage present to raise. If you DID manage to raise the low peak, you would create a substantial shift in the Vrms output. For example, say you raised the low peak to 3V, it would throw off all your numbers by 50% or more...

    The whole premise of the circuit is creating a perception of reality. It never really fires at 4V, EVER... It modulates between 0V and 6V at a rate fast enough where the average voltage output is somewhere around 4V.

    I can't think of a good way to explain it any better than that... LoL I could ramble on for days, so I'll just cut it out now :)
     
  19. WarHawk-AVG

    WarHawk-AVG Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 27, 2013
    H-Town
    That linky above explains it...I agree...it might actually make the vape "hotter" than what it should...the result, burn to crap juice

    Ultimately..it would make the square wave into a "sawtooth" wave
    [​IMG]
    Which would be just a un-needed load on the output not really changing much..the "rattlesnake" would be there...just sound different more than likely
     
  20. dam718

    dam718 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 30, 2012
    Hawaii
    Everyone who makes the claim that 33.3HZ 0-6V shouldn't make a difference to the coil is missing out on a very important part of our vaping experience, and that's the juice itself... I explained this pretty well in a post way back in the early stages of this thread, but it bears mentioning again...

    Lot's of folks use a light bulb, but I think that's a poor example, because even though A/C is a 60Hz wave form (here in the US anyway) it's very analogue in nature, and the amount of time that filament spends at true 0V is effectively non existent.

    You've seen a blacksmith at work, I'm guessing? He gets a piece of steel glowing red, then in open air shapes the steel... In open air, that steel continues to glow red for quite a while... Then to temper the blade he places that glowing red steel in water and it is cool to the touch in a fraction of the time it would take for it to cool in open air...

    Now imagine on a much smaller scale, that you fire your coil in open air, and yes PWM will make it glow in open air no problem... I've never taken a temperature reading on that coil, but I would imagine that when it's glowing it's several hundred degrees... Let's call it a conservative 700... The moment you release the current, which happens roughly 16 times a second, that temperature is going to drop considerably... Why? Because it's surrounded by coolant that has somewhere along the lines of a 500 degree temperature differential. (PG is the same base ingredient used in automotive coolant, BTW, so it's EXTREMELY effective at dropping temperatures!) And we're not talking about a big heavy sword that takes a 10 seconds to cool to the touch... We're talking about a tiny little wire measured in thousandths of an inch!

    In open air, I would agree, there probably isn't that big a difference... But when your coil is surrounded by a cooling agent like propylene glycol, or even straight vegetable glycerine. I just can't agree with that theory...
     
  21. WarHawk-AVG

    WarHawk-AVG Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 27, 2013
    H-Town
    Anyone believes that...throw a 1.8Ω-2.2Ω coil on a simple eGo battery and tell me the vape isn't solid and clean...

    That alone is proof enough...

    Great analogy!
     
  22. WarHawk-AVG

    WarHawk-AVG Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 27, 2013
    H-Town
    GrimmTech...throw a MPV2 on the o-scope too please

    Time to do some searchin' :D
     
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