Rayon wick, better flow, flavor, saturation and Nic Hit!
- Thread starter JeremyR
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
I'm kind of baffled by this post Mac. I skim this thread more than actively read and participate, so maybe you've read some posts that I haven't, but I never got the impression of people saying that only spaced coils work well and that contact coils give a bad vape. I've just seen people reporting that they notice they get to run more juice through spaced wraps before having to clean. Can they give the exact scientific reasoning why? No, they're just reporting there results and nothing more. Like me, many builders don't wait for the exact scientific reasoning to be explained, they just try it for themselves to see if the results are also positive for them.I'm aware of that five, re your opening remark, I have as well. But my test was of an ESMC as you may realize.
So I'm not too sure about this hypothesis if center-heating is seen as the nexus of gunking (it is, vape happens there) but that micro's are the culprit as this behavior is particularly associated with them. And it's especially true of t.m.c.'s as the are the optimization of close contact. And both for the same reason, symmetry.
So it would seem that the theory being proposed here, what it dilutes to, is that the only good vape that may happen is when a wind is purposely made as irregularly as possible and symmetry disregarded.
I reject that. And I challenge those who make the claim to show the rest of us how it does it.
Am I saying we shouldn't. Hell no. I build all kinds of stuff. Encourage others to try. That is not my purpose here.
As you'll note from the pic and I'm sure there are loads spread over ECF demonstrating that coils made with proper symmetry will show a similar distribution of energy. The momentary center-firing is characteristic of the initial shorting across turns with symmetry which equalizes as electron flow normalizes and the element cools overall into uniformity. So there is no differentiation. Electrons always behave the same way in similar circuits. The exception is asymmetry and the infinite responses to those equally diverse variations. Things get predictable the closer we get to a standard. That is the reality in physics.
And that's my question, just what exactly are we chasing? Can it be duplicated. Or is it an exercise?
For me a spaced wind makes sense if you build it with some consistency. And I've noted in an earlier post above just why this is so difficult if not impractical. If there's variation, so will the result vary. So I don't think it can be claimed at all that an experience is repeatable with a standard wind. Approximated perhaps and that does have some value (some of us are that good freehand). So I don't reject spaced winds. But to use that as a criteria of comparison or rejection of other methods of building or wind technologies is quite a stretch and disingenuous if made seriously. I happen to think that manual jigs offer a huge advantage to many new vapers. Are we to discourage them if that's what works for them?
Why single out microcoils as the culprit for a bad vape?
That's to say f1ve if we nowhere hear that a micro is the solution for a given juice or class with this or that wick. That is impossible. It suggests preference and favoritism, not factual observation. And that is not a practical discussion of utility.
Same thing applies to cellucotton. There as many or more on ECF who have posted on CCR's exceptions in performance. I have and the verifiable probable reasons for it. So I'm speaking strictly to the issue of universality and in that sense utility.
Do I endorse its use. Actually, I have. I believe it's a legitimate option. Can I prefer it? I would ask you f1ve, in what specific application? Best for custard? Are it's results that genuinely predictable for most of us?
I joined Jeremy's thread briefly here to interject this observation because I think the microcoil is essential to many smokers being able to easily quit and join our community. That's the purpose for my participation here at all. I'd like to see they get the chance to succeed and experience CCR. I hope I have the understanding and support to help get them there. There's is nothing antithetic to vaping but ignorance.
Thanks.
Good luck.
I decided to try spaced micro coils not because of this thread, but because of reports from others in the Natural Tobacco thread and Micro Coil thread who vape the same gunky NETs that I do. That includes one of the original micro coil innovators, Xobeloot, who mentioned he started spacing his coils because it gunks slower with the amazing, yet dirty, NET he manufactures and sells. I tried it for a few days and the results were obvious; they were right that spaced coils can go through more juice and I was wrong thinking it didn't matter.
As far as I know, nobody was saying one way is right or superior to another, just that they tried spacing and found improved results for themselves. You're the one who said people are moving backwards and doing it wrong.
Truth is there isn't a universal best way to make a coil, which you seem to assert a tension coil is. Each technique employed has positives and negatives, so people will have different preferences. A negative of a tensioned coil is that it gunks up quicker with dirtier juices, a fact that for some odd reason you seem offended by that people are reporting
I'm not so sure about that Jeremy, when I see things like, "prove it", "I reject that" and ending with "Good Luck" I see someone who is smug, a chip on their shoulder, trying to impress the minions and looking for praise. You know, like bow and kiss my ring.
A good seasoned debate is all and well. Being a free and open forum we can all express our opinions. I do appreciate everyone's interest and feed back.. In fact I knew a debate would stir when I started talking about spaced coils.. Similar to the huge debate over rayon, that has now passed...
I actually delayed my outright expression for this reason. But the time has passed and I had to let it be known I've found I prefer spaced coils for my own reasons. And it's good to know that xobe has found the same, as I've been out of the mc thread for some time.
Thanks for your post Jerms...
I actually delayed my outright expression for this reason. But the time has passed and I had to let it be known I've found I prefer spaced coils for my own reasons. And it's good to know that xobe has found the same, as I've been out of the mc thread for some time.
Thanks for your post Jerms...
I think I may just need more airflow... I tried someone's 26650 rayon setup, with the big dipper looking airholes cut into it. I had the faint dusty feeling I have with my builds, but it wasn't bothersome at all..like with my setups with rayon. It also was a 0.0x build.. and I never build that low in a mech...the wire gauge needed holds way too much heat with just normal pulls..and regardless of how much more vapor production I get, I still chain vape.
I came home, and tried it with a 0.2 Ohm chain-kanthal build on my plume veil(with my IPV2)... with the same flavor and nicotine level(the ob ~1mg)...I noticed that sensation a lot more than with "doodad's" build.. so yeah..going to break out the drills on a tobh sleeve..try and get more airflow to the same setup.
So hopefully I'll get my situation figured out with rayon...surprised I haven't figured it out yet..cuz I do know it is better than my rolled cotton..but it is cotton prime rib..cuz I "cloned" cotton bacon.. whoever that company is needs to have a brick or two slapped across their face(s).
I came home, and tried it with a 0.2 Ohm chain-kanthal build on my plume veil(with my IPV2)... with the same flavor and nicotine level(the ob ~1mg)...I noticed that sensation a lot more than with "doodad's" build.. so yeah..going to break out the drills on a tobh sleeve..try and get more airflow to the same setup.
So hopefully I'll get my situation figured out with rayon...surprised I haven't figured it out yet..cuz I do know it is better than my rolled cotton..but it is cotton prime rib..cuz I "cloned" cotton bacon.. whoever that company is needs to have a brick or two slapped across their face(s).
I prefer contact coils with japanese cotton vs rayon. I prefer rayon with spaced coils over japanese cotton. Everything is subjective and that is why we are discovering all these options. What some people like others hate. and what some people find better others find it worse. I say it doesnt hurt to try new materials and methods. If you dont like them there is no reason to advocate the dismissal of it because you didnt find it more enjoyable than whatever your preference may be.
Hey Jerms, hi ya doin'?
I think the suggestion's made here repeatedly. Avoid the microcoil, they gunk. But CCR works and spaced coils work best in them.
Am I missing something?
I've been busy validating the micro and contributing an adaptation to make its improvement easy. I think supe's finding helped create the excitement that has helped change the vaping world this past year and the industry supported by our pastime as well. The m.c. has helped make vaping plausibly accessible to many because it is efficient and repeatable. Easy.
Spaced winds are what we had before as this phenomena and industry pondered along in experiment. We thrilled over hidden micro's in carto's. Then real science and electrical principle intruded.
Some may not like the one and prefer the other. What you and I like are not the issue.
I think those that are trying to sort this out deserve clarity. Don't you? I think so.
I ask for the basis of the conclusion. How does it work? How is it spaced and CCR don't, and micro's do?
I'm not sayin' anyone must do one or the other. I make my own case and stand by it. I'm sure many enjoy what they consider to be simple and effective. Good for them. Let's all find it and vape. I'm sure we each will find what's in our own best interest. That's not my concern. The little guy is. Those wandering around the halls of ECF trying to sort through all the pseudo-science.
I take exception to the argument. No baseless statements. No argument.
Then it's all good.
I'm out.
Good luck.
Last edited:
Hey Jerms, hi ya doin'?
I think the suggestion's made here repeatedly. Avoid the microcoil, they gunk. But CCR works and spaced coils work best in them.
Am I missing something?
I've been busy validating the micro and contributing an adaptation to make its improvement easy. I think supe's finding helped create the excitement that has helped change the vaping world this past year and the industry supported by our pastime as well. The m.c. has helped make vaping plausibly accessible to many because it is efficient and repeatable. Easy.
Spaced winds are what we had before as this phenomena and industry pondered along in experiment. We thrilled over hidden micro's in carto's. Then real science and electrical principle intruded.
Some may not like the one and prefer the other. What you and I like are not the issue.
I think those that are trying to sort this out deserve clarity. Don't you? I think so.
I ask for the basis of the conclusion. How does it work? How is it spaced and CCR don't, and micro's do?
I'm not sayin' anyone must do one or the other. I make my own case and stand by it. I'm sure many enjoy what they consider to be simple and effective. Good for them. Let's all find it and vape. I'm sure we each will find what's in our own best interest. That's not my concern. The little guy is. Those wandering around the halls of ECF trying to sort through all the pseudo-science.
I take exception to the argument. No baseless statements. No argument.
Then it's all good.
I'm out.
Good luck.
Am I curious why spaced coils are gunking slower than contact coils? Sure I am. But I'm not going to wait for the science behind that reason to come forward before I apply that technique when I've already discovered through simply trying it that it's definitely the case for me. And I'll also recommend people try it if they are complaining about gunking issues. If they ask why it gunks less, I'll honestly say I don't know, but I find new people are usually more interested in what works instead of why it works.
Saying a spaced coil gunks slower isn't a baseless statement if someone actively experiments and finds it's true. The pseudoscience comes along when people try to guess at the reason for something that they don't fully understand and state it as fact. I try not to do that, but like everyone else I'm not perfect. I don't think it's a problem that plagues this thread or the whole forum more than everywhere else. Either way, my only responsibility is watching what I say, not what others say. I've long since giving up trying to control others or taking responsibility for their actions.
And to be clear on a couple things; nobody is saying spaced coils don't gunk, just that it's slower. I've been able to push around double through a spaced coil. And micro coil simply refers to the size of the coil, not whether the wraps touch. If a coil has an inner diameter of around 1/16", it's a micro whether spaced, contact, tensioned, etc.
OK guys, I lover this debate so I thought it should have its own thread...
Tada!
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=610692
Tada!
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=610692
This is not a CCR and tight wrapped coil discussion. It is a discussion on the basis of how tight coils concentrate heat in the center of the coil on the outside and lead to fouling much easier than a spaced coil. No junk science just pure observation by a few members within this thread. As I said earlier we are beyond heat and efficiency. How about proper cooling? Sure tight coils do it better, but there is the problem of controlling that heat. If that heat is not in constant control then the flavorings and other additives will burn and crust on the coil (in the center and propagate outwards). Reason? Uncontrolled and uneven cooling of the coil on the outside. A tight coil concentrates its heat in the center, a spaced coil spreads is out along the entire length of the coil. Look at how they dry fire. Once that crust propagates across the coil it is done. A loose coil prevents this total propagation whereas a tight coil enables it.
I will delve in to the responses that I have missed later on but I will say that there are some dangerous words being passed here. Things like only, must, always, you, and so on are being used to generalize the entire debate and Mac sorry to say you have done it rather often which is cause for concern about your open mindedness. From what I have seen the other people participating in this discussion are stating their experiences and have yet to say the we all are doing it wrong with tight coils. Any suggestion to use a loose coil is just that, a suggestion. This entire community is a collective learning body that has grown exponentially in the recent years.
Speaking of cooling I have been pondering a design in my head that uses 1.5-2.0 mm tube to route airflow to 4 sides of the coil vice just the top or bottom.
I will delve in to the responses that I have missed later on but I will say that there are some dangerous words being passed here. Things like only, must, always, you, and so on are being used to generalize the entire debate and Mac sorry to say you have done it rather often which is cause for concern about your open mindedness. From what I have seen the other people participating in this discussion are stating their experiences and have yet to say the we all are doing it wrong with tight coils. Any suggestion to use a loose coil is just that, a suggestion. This entire community is a collective learning body that has grown exponentially in the recent years.
Speaking of cooling I have been pondering a design in my head that uses 1.5-2.0 mm tube to route airflow to 4 sides of the coil vice just the top or bottom.
Just a quick aside on gunking via different coil geometry...
Has anyone considered "post vape sizzle" as the coil cools and the sugars present in the juice congeals and forms like skin on stove top pudding that is the majority of the culprit?
Agreed from the last post, tmc's cool slower, and that's accelerated by thicker wire and lower ohm builds.
I'm thinking this could be a factor.
Has anyone considered "post vape sizzle" as the coil cools and the sugars present in the juice congeals and forms like skin on stove top pudding that is the majority of the culprit?
Agreed from the last post, tmc's cool slower, and that's accelerated by thicker wire and lower ohm builds.
I'm thinking this could be a factor.
etherealink,
I use a lot of genies (sp?) and the buildup is always on the backside away from the air hole which kind of confirms that the hot side is the culprit in building up gunk because it is hot and the chamber is full of vapor that gets scorched onto the coil..
Rather windy way of agreeing with you.
PS - close or space just at it's worst on close space coils probably because they retain the heat longer.
I think it's more like drippings in the oven when you're baking something - a little nastier and crustier than pudding skin. The longer it stays in the heat, the crustier it gets.
The crust, or gunk, in this case is actually a polymer formed by carbon and oxygen atoms combining with other things in the liquids when the liquids are heated. This is why no cleaning agent can get rid of it. If it were "crust" like what happens when cooking, normal cleaners would be able to remove it, and they can't. I've tried everything, including lacquer thinner, acetone, brake cleaner, carburetor cleaner, soaking in PGA for months and none of it works at all. No I wouldn't vape with a coil/wick cleaned with any of that stuff, I was just trying to find a solution other than dry burning. Like "Judgement Day", gunking is inevitable.
You mean pissing on it?
Now seriously, I can remove gunk with hydrogen peroxide but as I said before, my coils hardly gunk so I might not be a great example to follow
Regards
Tony
Sent from my GT-I9195 through Tapatalk
Spaced parallel 32g, my spaced coils have good form. Good enough to put off great vapor, flavor, th, and longevity.
These are some pics from a previous rayon build. 1.3 ohm run at 6v of power.
This pic was after the first hour of vaping.
This is the same untouched wick and coil after about 100ml of 100vg Arabic tobacco juice at 9mg. No gunking to really speak of here at all. You can still see the coils. It's still about the same as the first hour. And would have kept going further there was nothing wrong with it.
This was mostly archived by the correct density of rayon but also the spaces in the coils.
On thing that can cause gunking with rayon is too little density causing the top of the coil to run hot.
These are some pics from a previous rayon build. 1.3 ohm run at 6v of power.
This pic was after the first hour of vaping.
This is the same untouched wick and coil after about 100ml of 100vg Arabic tobacco juice at 9mg. No gunking to really speak of here at all. You can still see the coils. It's still about the same as the first hour. And would have kept going further there was nothing wrong with it.
This was mostly archived by the correct density of rayon but also the spaces in the coils.
On thing that can cause gunking with rayon is too little density causing the top of the coil to run hot.
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
