Science vs. "science"

[stols001]

Well, it's nice some of that data is being collected. Obviously you'd need more info than lungfunction and whatnot, like dual use or no, length of time vaping, devices used.... We'd need to figure out what to collect. And, yes, 10 years is not a long time, but it's not a short time, either. I'm not saying that this would be the perfect study, but it would be a useful meta-analysis of real world results without much effort, since I assume most vapers are collecting that info for themselves, anyway.... I see no reason not to add to efforts already being made, but that's just me.... It would be a project, but not an insurmountable project. The FDA is going to ignore any data not from the US, I'm just saying.... It's possible and achievable. I'm not saying it would *change* anything, but if we up and did it ourselves, *I* would be proud, and pleased, and there are certainly ways to set up control groups.... I still know TONS of smokers. And, I'm thinking this might be more for our representatives, in any case. A meta-analysis will carry far more weight with them than a *testemonial* saying vaping is great, KWIM?

Anna

 

[Eskie]

Looking at all the folks here and getting their information would be a retrospective study. Good to have, but given all the moving parts and variables, will not carry the same weight as a prospective, here's a bunch of people all using x e cig vs. a bunch who keep smoking study. Even then you haven't established "x system" is safer than "y system", or works better to stop smoking without a side by side comparison.

A meta-analysis is nice to compile, but it means gathering all that data from prior published results, and I don't believe there's enough out there to do that sort of statistical analysis.

 

[mikepetro]

Vaping is a moving target, the tech advances faster than the science (even objective science) can measure it.

It is kind of like Consumer Reports used to be. You get this great report on the best Microwave to buy, but when you go to look for it you find that model is obsolete and has been replaced by newer models. Vaping is the same way.

And TBH I am not sure some of the newer gear, and newer "vape styles" are that much safer than the old stuff. I have been doing my own digging into the temperature side, but there are other things that concern me even more that I dont have knowledge or equipment to measure.

For example, and I am not knocking anybodys vape, do what works for you, but I am highly suspect of the health effects of the cumulus cloud DTL hits, and attys designed to deliver 2ml of liquid in a single hit, even vs cigarettes. I dont know, but I am very suspicious of it.

Common sense tells me that inhaling anything other than air (and in some cities - even the air) is not likely to be good for you. With the cumulus cloud DTL there is so much more volume of ejuice and "stuff" being deeply inhaled that I cant help but wonder.

I vape to quit smoking, successful for 4 years now. It is definitely harm reduction, no doubt in my mind. But now we are seeing a new generation who vape for "sport" and not necessarily for harm reduction. I would love to see some objective testing on that as well.

 

[stols001]

Well, I'd agree with both posts above. The moving target issue is.... Well, sure I didn't feel good on that cleto tank even at minimum watts I could manage, whether it was due to the inital quitting, vs. the amount of vape, I'm unsure.

It would be nice to have data on cloud chasing, for sure, and it being more, ah, competitive. But that said, I do know sub-ohmers, (one of whom is my son) who really weren't doing it for sport, just purchasing the newest, greatest thing, and ended up eventually quitting vaping altogether (at 6 mg nicotine), and I don't think he would have quit nearly as easily if he hadn't vaped for a few years first? So, overall harm reduction there is a big win. That may or may not be the case for everyone, however, and my son self-reported that he felt FAR better not vaping, than vaping the way he did, and noted increased lung function, and looks and feels great, so I'm unsure. I don't understand how vaping at say, 120 watts on a routine basis is *smart*. But, if that is what it takes, I'm still of the mindset that it's less harmful than smoking.....

Anna

 

[Asbestos4004]

A guy in the new members section started a thread talking about meeting Hon Lic. He made a point worth parroting...

He was talking about the remarkable improvement in his health. Then he said "of course that can be attributed to quitting smoking ...not vaping. " It's an important point frequently forgotten

 

[mikepetro]

A guy in the new members section started a thread talking about meeting Hon Lic. He made a point worth parroting...

He was talking about the remarkable improvement in his health. Then he said "of course that can be attributed to quitting smoking ...not vaping. " It's an important point frequently forgotten

Dont be surprised if I borrow that quote. It hits the mark well.

 

[zoiDman]

Stuff like that is already going on. Moffitt is running a 3 year follow up study on vapers and dual users right now. I think it completes collection next year, no idea when they will finish the stats and publish. There have been studies about improvements in lung function, one recently published in the Annals of Internal Medicine E-Cigarettes and Toxin Exposure | Annals of Internal Medicine | American College of Physicians

Look at these findings
View attachment 668639

View attachment 668641

Pretty decent results.

The problem right now with vaping is it's only been around 10 years, not a ton of time when you're talking about long term harm reduction. In addition, the vape gear has developed rapidly over that time, and what we vape with now wasn't even around a few years ago. That means even less data for long term harm reduction. Even looking at say members here as a reporting source is anecdotal as no standard reporting system is in place.

Now, when you do have hundreds of thousands of anecdotal reports, it sure supports the need for proper study of a way to get folks off cigarettes. But those studies are really just getting started and will take time to complete. I'm continuing to vape because if I wait for all that data to come in, I'd probably be dead at a premature age. But it doesn't mean everything is all proven out.

The final problem is who will do the testing and who will foot the bills. The FDA does not do testing. Basic and clinical researchers do with grant money that may come from the government like the NIH or manufacturers.

I believe this is the Full Text of that Study...

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ent-Therapy-Users-A-Cross-sectional-Study.pdf

 

[zoiDman]

I agree. In some cases higher aldehydes for some 1st gen devices like the CE4 were observed in testing. Cigarettes however have thousands of different potentially carcinogenic substances in them and all that tar from combustion, so the evidence is not there to conclude a cigarette is healthier than a CE4. In fact having smoked for many years and then vaping a CE4+ for a few months my personal results were I quit coughing up fleme every morning and lung function improved. I consider the CE4 less harmful than smoking at least in the short term based on real life data... me.

I agree also.

And this is where statements regarding "All" e-Cigarettes can Fall Down. Because in the Entire Population of e-Cigarette Hardware, e-Liquid Type, e-Liquid Flavorings/Sweeteners, Coil Heat ranges, Frequency of Use, etc..., there can be occurrences where the Relative Potential Harm can be Greater (perhaps Much Greater) than the Population Norm for All e-Cigarettes use.

 

[stols001]

Not to mention... Depending on how much you smoked and how you did so, vaping habits may be more (or less) than vapers who smoked less to begin with.... I know I ah, tested my rig out THOROUGHLY the first couple weeks I started vaping, that's for sure. I really vaped the heck out of it, and checked that it was working OFTEN, LOL, though I don't need to do that as much at all, now. Okay, this IS getting unreasonably complicated. I give up, well, I'm not giving up, but I give up on compiling data.... I'd need to read A BAJILION things to get a handle on any data provided, to even have a chance of compiling it correctly.

Anna

 

[mikepetro]

Objective data collection is hard. Lots of challenges. I understand.

But we as vaping community have long done our own. It worked too and improved gear, held vendors toes to the fire, etc.. Those of us reading this are part of that vaping "community". Now, I would hazard a guess that most vapers are not part of a "community", they are just vapers. Now that vaping has gone mass-market it is the scientific community that really needs to step up with objective research.

 

[Aus11]

Objective data collection is hard. Lots of challenges. I understand.

But we as vaping community have long done our own. It worked too and improved gear, held vendors toes to the fire, etc.. Those of us reading this are part of that vaping "community". Now, I would hazard a guess that most vapers are not part of a "community", they are just vapers. Now that vaping has gone mass-market it is the scientific community that really needs to step up with objective research.

You are right about that. Most people I have ever talked to with vaporizers could not tell you anything about vaping. Anyone I talk to at my job for example that vapes just assumes it is 100% risk free.

I know it is at the least more safe than other things you could be doing but nothing is risk free. I think people do need to understand that a little if change is to come around. Im not saying most vapors know nothing about vaping but at least mostly everyone that I have talked to has no understanding of it.

 

[DPLongo22]

I agree, it's more about the $, and not the health of Americans.
The FDA seems to be ignoring the studies already done by the UK physicians.

Yeah - anytime I see ANYTHING from the FDA or Stanton G's face, with neither even acknowledging all the things we no know/believe (RCP, etc.) my brain floods with one very simple mental picture.

 

[DPLongo22]

Anyone I talk to at my job for example that vapes just assumes it is 100% risk free.

Jeez. Even drinking purified water isn't 100% risk free since too much of even it can theoretically kill us (granted - that's a lot of water).

 

[David Wolf]

A guy in the new members section started a thread talking about meeting Hon Lic. He made a point worth parroting...

He was talking about the remarkable improvement in his health. Then he said "of course that can be attributed to quitting smoking ...not vaping. " It's an important point frequently forgotten

Dont be surprised if I borrow that quote. It hits the mark well.

A well made point to which I will add an equally well made point with this quote:
"I was never able to quit smoking until I started vaping"
Source: Thousands of people in this forum and millions world -wide.
By the way is this the same Hon Lic who came up with that maneuver to save someone who is choking?

 

[Asbestos4004]

A well made point to which I will add an equally well made point with this quote:
"I was never able to quit smoking until I started vaping"
Source: Thousands of people in this forum and millions world -wide.

I am one of those thousands....

 

[David Wolf]

I am one of those thousands....

Same here pal!

 

[mikepetro]

A well made point to which I will add an equally well made point with this quote:
"I was never able to quit smoking until I started vaping"
Source: Thousands of people in this forum and millions world -wide.
By the way is this the same Hon Lic who came up with that maneuver to save someone who is choking?

Hon Lic is credited with inventing the ecig.

And I too am one of the (I dare say) millions....

 

[zoiDman]

I am one of those thousands....

... Points of Light?

 

[Asbestos4004]

... Points of Light?

I've heard that I'm fairly bright...

 

[DPLongo22]

By the way is this the same Hon Lic who came up with that maneuver to save someone who is choking?

, and yet I'm still ing!