SE, NJoy vs FDA -- Discussion

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Hotwire

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Dec 20, 2010
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let's be grown ups here and admit it - he's right.

Having cartoon characters advertise a drug delivery device - which it is let's be honest - is not responsible. plain and simple.

I think in another thread it was alluded i was a fda stooge - lol - because I said that the fda can't go and ban cigs as it would lead to undeground black marketeering and all the nasty stuff that goes along with it. but that just because they are maybe trying to ban or regulate e-cigs doesn't make them some huge evil entity - as the cig market is too far along to be stopped whereas we live in a different climate than that in which cigarettes became the market they are today.

I vape and i agree with regualtion and testing - but not banning.
 

rghgoods

Unregistered Supplier
Nov 16, 2009
13
8
Illinois
www.tececigs.com
Rghgoods, yes, quoting Einstein seems to be fashionable among folks looking to appeal to an intelligence other than their own. To make you happy, I'll do the same: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."--Albert Einstein

I don't claim to be as intelligent as you, nor do I feel the need to act as though I am. Again, for as intelligent as you portray yourself to be, you don't seem to comprehend that the people here are receptive to what you say, just not how you say it. Human stupidity maybe be unavoidable, but being a self righteous :censored: is. And remember, we are all only that, human.

Suddenly, I do feel smarter than you.

Can we get back to the docket updates and constructive conversation?
 
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JerryRM

Resting In Peace
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Nov 10, 2009
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Thank you for posting with such class JerryRM. (As we've come to expect from you but that does not reduce the thanks!)

I don't know how far you will ignore him, seeing the posts and ignoring them vs. not seeing them at all. Either makes sense.

I'm going to make this person the second on my ignore list on ECF. (PhiHalcyon was the first.) For me, if I don't see any future garbage from this person I feel that's best because I won't be tempted to respond and to thus fuel some fire by giving the garbage a value it doesn't have.

Thank you for the compliment, Mister, but I assume that you haven't seen any of my posts in the Outside. :facepalm: :laugh:
 

rolygate

Vaping Master
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We decided a long time ago that we wouldn't ban anything or anyone unless they directly attacked ECF or members. There are products seen here that are less than ideal, and vendors who don't appreciate the ramifications of what they are doing. But that's life. People sometimes describe our moderation or general policies as 'Draconian' - but the truth is, we do the absolute minimum of regulation that is possible in order to fulfill our mission.

As regards advertising that may be targeted to different groups - I don't personally believe that cartoon-style imagery is targeted at children, it to me it would seem to appeal more to young adults. It's a marketing choice. Me, I'd go the Saga* route, it's proven highly successful and would seem to me a far better choice in this industry - there appear to be ten times more over-40s than under-30s converting to ecigs. But perhaps I'm wrong?
[* Saga: in case you're not familiar with the story, they started as a tiny outfit selling insurance to over-50s (I seem to remember) - but the seniors market turned out to be so huge, they grew in a comparatively short time into a monster corporate targeting over-40s and have a turnover equalling IBM or something, now :) ]

What's more of a problem is that the industry in general seems to have a very short-term view, and can't seem to figure out that if they work together, the road will be a lot less bumpy. It's not as if funds are tight, for several of them. Currently they mostly seem to be placing individual commercial advantage above general survival. It's obvious to everyone that the next direction of the FDA's attack will be to try and stop flavors, nicotine strengths of any value, and ecigarette delivery by mail. There is a serious risk of such preventive regulations succeeding (since in essence they already exist and apply to tobacco products, which ecigs are / will be classified as), and the only possible defense is for the industry to work together against such measures.

All the attempts at formation of trade associations I have witnessed, in several countries, have been largely unsuccessful, because (a) the prime movers wanted to push some sort of commercial agenda and thus appeared exclusive in some way (for example giving preference to cartomizer suppliers' issues, or by setting membership fees too high), instead of being accessible to most suppliers; and/or (b) were started out or run by people who have zero experience at running any kind of association; and (c) vendors seem to think the good times will last for ever.

Altogether, a great shame.
 
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rolygate

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We have some marvelous candidates for segregation into their own private forum, where they can all attack each other's arguments to their hearts' content. BigSheepherder and Perfectionist (of the ECF UK forum) come to mind immediately. I think this would provide excellent entertainment for all, and remove an obvious source of irritation for everyone else.

A jurist would be required to referee, and who would be able to award distinctions for successful argument, and Miserable User status (a vBulletin forum feature that allows us to punish minor trolls by making their experience here rather painful) to the annoying.

A good time would be had by all.
 

Big Sheepherder

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ANGUSATAT: "The majority of the staff are just volunteers who help run the place in their spare time." The top level of ECF's staff/ownership should take the laboring oar on responsible site standards. If not them, who else? Noone? VOCALEK: Substantial donations to CASAA, if that is your "chosen" lobbying arm, are primarily the responsibility of those with a direct business interest in the industry. CASAA's site would be improved (one hopes) if there were some meaningful blurbs describing the officers' backgrounds. No one really wants to surrender money, much less to folks for whom they are offered no meaningful information. Also, don't lump officers and directors together on the website. Their functions are entirely different. The latter select the former, but the former are responsible for day-to-day operations. That is why there are typically background descriptions for officers, but not for directors on websites of this nature.
 

tvujec

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The top level of ECF's staff/ownership should take the laboring oar on responsible site standards. If not them, who else? Noone?

Sheepherder, let me start with pointing out where we agree. Using cartoon advertising is bad for an adult product. However, this is not because cartoon advertising necessarily means that you're advertising to kids, rather that it can be easily abused by corrupt politicians as a vote-picking tool. I don't think we still disagree here but it is beside the point anyway.

Back to your quote above. You seem to be mistaking ECF for an organized entity of some kind, that should have an agenda and act on it. The only way to do that, would be to impose certain criteria which would make it stop being an open internet message board. Kind of like having a cake and eating it too. It can definitely serve as a collaborative forum for any activist group interested in vaping issues, but the forum itself can't take a stand unless it is a general issue ranging from mild abuse to downright illegal behavior.

Finally, even if the above was not the case, even if ECF became an official and regulated lobby group with strong bylaws, this particular forum and topic would be a wrong place to argue the issue. Who do you see here? Mostly us, vapers and consumers, an occasional lurking supplier, but barely anyone with any real influence. It is like going to an independent dieting support forum, under the topic of animal proteins and arguing that people there should change the amount of high fructose corn syrup in soda. And acting like a jerk while telling them that. The best result one could expect would be a zero-sum game, the worst - a couple of new fans of high fructose corn syrup, just out of spite....

If that makes you feel smart and intelligent, by all means, go for it. People here have seen worse, and we will either learn to ignore you, or you will manage to cross the line of abuse and get blocked. However, I don't think you'll ever feel fulfilled.
 

Vocalek

CASAA Activist
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
ANGUSATAT: "The majority of the staff are just volunteers who help run the place in their spare time." The top level of ECF's staff/ownership should take the laboring oar on responsible site standards. If not them, who else? Noone? VOCALEK: Substantial donations to CASAA, if that is your "chosen" lobbying arm, are primarily the responsibility of those with a direct business interest in the industry. CASAA's site would be improved (one hopes) if there were some meaningful blurbs describing the officers' backgrounds. No one really wants to surrender money, much less to folks for whom they are offered no meaningful information. Also, don't lump officers and directors together on the website. Their functions are entirely different. The latter select the former, but the former are responsible for day-to-day operations. That is why there are typically background descriptions for officers, but not for directors on websites of this nature.

There have been some good points made about what ECF is and is not. CASAA is a separate orgnization. ECF does no lobbying. CASAA asks for the participation of ECF members when we need to get the word out.

You seem to believe that there is a huge reservoir of money somewhere that CASAA can tap at will to hire the same kind of attorneys, lobbyiests, PR firms, and ad agencies that the Alphabet Soup Gang and big pharma can afford to hire. That's why I challenged you to put your money where your mouth is, if you care deeply about keeping the products available.

Somehow, I don't think that this huge tub of donations is going to come rolling in from you, the industry, or consumers. If you really want to help, then dream up ways that we can accomplish what we need to get done as consumers without having much in the way of money to work with.

The e-cigarette industry suffers from being made up mostly of hundreds of small vendors, which is very unlike the profile of the pharmaceutical industry. The bulk of manufacturing takes place in China, and none of those companies comes close to being a Johnson & Johnson, or Pfizer. Ruyan is so broke that they are sending attorneys around to sue other companies for patent infringements.

While we do not turn down any donations from industry (or anyone else), we don't directly ask e-cigarette vendors or manufacturers for money. We need to rely primarily on consumer donations, else we face the accusations of being a tool of the industry.

And I am sorry to disappoint you, but CASAA has no paid staff whatsoever. All eight of us volunteer directors are involved in the day-to-day operations. I'm the only one of the officers who does not also have a full-time job. I'm retired and living on SS and a small pension.

You are very much a latecomer to this forum. CASAA was formed by the membership of ECF in late 2009 for the purpose of keeping e-cigarettes available and affordable. We were nominated by other members, posted our backgrounds on ECF, and then a general election was held. The history is all here in this forum if you care to track it down and see how we hammered out goals, mission statement, etc., and created an organization that supports the concept of tobacco harm reduction regardless of method used.

As for my profile: My last 9 years of employment were spent as a technical writer for both an IT group and a public health research and evaluation group within the same organization. I also have 25 years experience in instructional design and development of computer-based education and web-based training. I taught high school English for 4 years, worked in a bank for a year, and spent 4 years doing publicity for non profits.

I'm a mother of 2, and a grandmother of 7 (8 in July).

OK, so how about you. Are you a practicing attorney? In what specialty? If not, what is your professional experience?

How long did you smoke? What has your experience been in using smoke-free alternatives? Have you uses an e-cig? Snus? NRT? Do you still smoke? If so, have you cut down on how much you smoke?

What do you know about the history of government misdirection about the relative safety of tobacco products? If you were to volunteer your time to CASAA, what skills and abilities would you bring to the table?
 
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Poeia

Bird Brain
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Paragraphs are your friends.

Seriously, that much text without a break is too difficult to read...........

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

As I see it, the biggest problem in getting "the industry" to act as one is the fact that it is so new and evolving very quickly. Most of the companies are the web-equivalent of Mom & Pop stores, trying to grow to the point where their owners can quit their day jobs, hire staff, etc. Some will make it, some will disappear (and some which seemed well-established will fail to keep pace with the rapidly changing technology of vaping.) Only a few are currently big enough to finance a fight. And, as they are all jockeying for position, most don't want to work together or pay for something that will help the competition. They will have to find a way if they want to survive, just as we consumers are trying to band together to ensure our right to vape remains.

BTW, as for lawyers' attitudes, a lot of it depends on what type of law they practice. I think people who go into corporate or contract law would have very different personalities than those who become criminal defense attorneys.
 

AngusATAT

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Remind me to ask you to speak on my behalf regarding these matters from now on. You're much more diplomatic than I am. The facepalm smiley is all I could muster... after I deleted my original reply.

People think I'm a forum nazi now for telling them to behave. I can't imagine the names I'd be called if I tried to tell vendors how to run their businesses. I don't think he quite understands what a discussion forum is.
 

MoonRose

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Remind me to ask you to speak on my behalf regarding these matters from now on. You're much more diplomatic than I am. The facepalm smiley is all I could muster... after I deleted my original reply.

People think I'm a forum nazi now for telling them to behave. I can't imagine the names I'd be called if I tried to tell vendors how to run their businesses. I don't think he quite understands what a discussion forum is.

You are not a forum nazi. You just happen to have a duty that requires you to remind people of the forum rules, that's all. :D
 
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