SE, NJoy vs FDA -- Discussion

[JustJulie]

LOL. No he's not Julie. You can tell because he's at least not insisting that he's the only one who knows the true interpretation of the definition of "tobacco product" as found in the FSTPCA, and that both Judge Leon AND the Court of Appeals have to be wrong. (Which Phi is still harping on over at VF, under the name of Gravity99).

However, he sure could be his twin brother!

I dunno . . . seems like an awful big coincidence for Gravity and Sheepherder to all of a sudden start trolling on a mission against TW unless they're somehow related. I have computer friends who tell me that it's quite possible to change your IP address by going through proxy servers. But since I'm enough of a dinosaur that I'm still trying to figure out how to tweet, I'll leave that to the computer gurus.

I am not a lawyer, and you guys can laugh me off the forum as well, but I agree with this. This guy has been trying to make a point, albeit in a less than appreciated manner, it is a point nonetheless. And of course there's always the possibility that he might be right even if we dont like his delivery.

From this an a few other threads, it really seems to me that there's more than a few "attitudes" around here, and then of course, there are a few who quickly turn ugly the moment they read something they dont like. I think the guy is trying to help, and yeah we may not like the packaging, but it's still an offer of help, and would it be wise to reject it?? Really?

For the record, I'm not a fan of lawyers either, but I am a huge fan of vaping and I'd really hate to see this freedom taken away from me over a battle of the "tudes"

I understand your point. But the reality is that when people conduct themselves in a rude and offensive manner, most folks will be sufficiently turned off that they won't care to listen. We can all try to be very big people and listen to someone lecture in a really ugly manner, or the person trying to give the lecture could try really hard not to be quite so offensive. I vote for No. 2.

And truthfully, this thread isn't an action thread or a thread where we develop legal strategies . . . it's pretty much just about reporting and discussing what's happening with the NJOY v. FDA case since it will affect us so profoundly. But the arguments we make here won't really affect much of anything. We are largely spectators in the case (with the exception of the amici curiae briefs).

 

[DC2]

The rest of it, quite frankly, is above this group's pay grade, as others have made clear.

The rest of it a lot of us already understand, what I'm not clear on is what you bring to the table.
Although it certainly is something I would be interested in finding out.

 

[Big Sheepherder]

Moonrose, if you have been keeping up with the litigation, how could you conceivably have said today, elsewhere, "The courts have already sided with ecigs."? They've done next to nothing (except on a very micro-level) but outline that the industry will be socked via the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act. By the way, among the legal cognescenti, it goes like this: "Everyone hates lawyers, but loves their lawyer." The phenomenon is easily understood.

 

[AngusATAT]

Personally, I don't care who is right and who is wrong. All I care about is that the rules of the forum are adhered to. And that means that if certain people don't start engaging others in a more civil, if not respectful manner, they are going to be taking a vacation from the ECF.

I suggest not testing me on my resolve regarding this matter. It won't end well.

 

[Big Sheepherder]

Point accepted, AngusATAT. Bottom line: One of the best thing you folks you can do among yourselves is enlarge your standards significantly and enforce them, including but not limited to advertising and labeling. If you don't get in front of this, then you simply we be dragged behind it.

 

[JerryRM]

We have no control over TW or any other supplier. What graphics and labels they chose to use, is out of our hands.

 

[mmsjs5]

Thank you JJ. I was trying to think of that guys username. I agree that's exactly who he/she sounds like.

By the way, are you sure you're not PhiHalcyon?

 

[Rosco]

This thread was started concerning "SE, NJoy vs FDA -- Discussion".
Take it back to that or close it.

 

[Elendil]

This thread was started concerning "SE, NJoy vs FDA -- Discussion".
Take it back to that or close it.

Excuse me?

 

[JerryRM]

Thank you, El.

 

[Vocalek]

You need professional PR, a top shelf firm both for alternative legislative suggestions/regulatory guidelines and for litigation (if necessary and prudent), lobbyists, targeted campaign contributions, and clean non-juvenile-appealing advertising. (Juvenile advertising with the standard disclaimer is very counterproductive.) If you don't yet have a strong trade association to fund it, then you are going to have to rely on the manufacturers. I leave you with a bit of classical wisdom: "Hope, danger's comforter, may be indulged in by those who have abundant resources, if not without loss at all events without ruin; but its nature is to be extravagant, and those who go so far as to put their all upon the venture see it in its true colours only when they are ruined; but so long as the discovery would enable them to guard against it, it is never found wanting. Let not this be the case with you, who are weak and hang on a single turn of the scale; nor be like the vulgar, who, abandoning such security as human means may still afford, when visible hopes fail them in extremity, turn to invisible, to prophecies and oracles, and other such inventions that delude men with hopes to their destruction."

You're absolutely right. Here is where to donate to CASAA. CASAA.org

We'd be very happy to hire a top notch PR firm, law firm, lobbyists, and ad agency, but we can't do all that without many hundreds of thousands of dollars on tap. What's your credit card max? If everybody who is active on ECF donates $5,000 or $10,000 we could get going on that in no time!

 

[Big Sheepherder]

JerryRM, perhaps I could understand the cottage vape industry simply deferring to come what may from the FDA on things like labeling, quality control, ingredient tracking, etc., since the industry is evidently disheveled and doesn't want to plunk anything down. However, there really is no legitimate reason for ECF not to engage in some self-monitoring and self-goverance when it comes to its membership's activities on ECF, links available here, etc. It does control those items. Tacitly condoning negative aspects of the industry by allowing them to exist on ECF is neither socially responsible nor tactically intelligent in the long run. Just say'in ...

 

[DC2]

Why do you keep addressing those that are the most vocal against you instead of those of us who encourage your involvement?
And why do you keep not getting involved to the extent that is requested of you by those who would encourage you?

It pains me to see your obvious intelligence not being put to better use.

Basically, all I have out of you is a rehashing of where we stand now.
And a condemnation of those without enough knowledge to do what is probably in our best interests.

Well, that, and apparently a desire to see Totally Wicked censured from this forum.

Certainly you have something else to add that is more utilitarian.
We could certainly use it.

 

[rghgoods]

Just ignore him and hope to god he goes away. This thread has been hijacked by someone who thinks they have all the correct answers, but can't seem to figure out why no one likes him. If you truly are as intelligent as you say you are, you'd know your place. Over stepping you boundaries in a condescending manor will get you no where here. I have spent a great many months lurking and learning on this forum and for the first time I feel compeled to step forward and say something.

"The world is a dangerous place!! Not because of those who do evil, But, Because of those who look on and do nothing." Einstein

Put your intelligent thoughts with a good attitude and contribute to this community, don't try and tear it down.

 

[Mister]

Yup, shades of PhiHalcyon, I'm just going to ignore him. Perhaps he makes some good points, but he doesn't have to be insulting as well. That's the last I'm going to say about it.

Thanks Julie and any way that you want to report the docket(s) is fine with me.

Thank you for posting with such class JerryRM. (As we've come to expect from you but that does not reduce the thanks!)

I don't know how far you will ignore him, seeing the posts and ignoring them vs. not seeing them at all. Either makes sense.

I'm going to make this person the second on my ignore list on ECF. (PhiHalcyon was the first.) For me, if I don't see any future garbage from this person I feel that's best because I won't be tempted to respond and to thus fuel some fire by giving the garbage a value it doesn't have.

 

[Big Sheepherder]

Sorry kids, you're not in the government hand-out business and neither am I. I've given you some easy to understand observations that are in your own self-interest, ECF's immediate revenue concerns notwitstanding. Now go do what you should do. Meanwhile, stop whining so much. Rghgoods, yes, quoting Einstein seems to be fashionable among folks looking to appeal to an intelligence other than their own. To make you happy, I'll do the same: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."--Albert Einstein

 

[JustJulie]

I find it rather interesting, Big Sheepherder, how you seem intent on distancing yourself from your fellow vapers on this thread. It doesn't seem that you feel this is your battle. For example:

You need professional PR, a top shelf firm both for alternative legislative suggestions/regulatory guidelines and for litigation (if necessary and prudent), lobbyists, targeted campaign contributions, and clean non-juvenile-appealing advertising. (Juvenile advertising with the standard disclaimer is very counterproductive.) If you don't yet have a strong trade association to fund it, then you are going to have to rely on the manufacturers.

Do you not see yourself as in the same boat as your fellow vapers? I think people would listen more attentively if you used the word "we" a bit more.

You are well-versed in the legal arena, and you have some interesting insights to share that would help inform the discussion on this thread and no doubt others. I hope you use your obvious intelligence to try to share information in manner so that the full import of what you are saying truly is heard.

It seems to me that it's a pretty basic principle of communication that if you talk down to people and tell them why they're wrong, the tendency is for the listener to simply stop listening. Partially, that's because no one likes to be talked down to, but it's also because pronouncements from on high rarely seem to invite or encourage discussion.

I personally think it is valid and appropriate (although perhaps not on this thread) to discuss to what extent consumers can and should put pressure on vendors to adhere to certain standards and, if so, (1) what are those standards, and (2) how can we apply that pressure. Maybe you should start a new thread on that . . . and also on what it is that you feel we (and I include you in the "we") ought to be doing to more effectively get in front of what I agree are going to be some very serious problems down the road.

 

[Big Sheepherder]

JustJulie, thank you for that opening. There are all sorts of ways to put pressure on vendors. However, that is not my thing. My thing is to make this site more responsible. Now if I wanted to put pressure on vendors, rather than cajole you folks into being more site-responsible, it would be this easy. Pick up the phone. Calls a couple of former classmates and/or colleagues in the admininstration. Complain that certain nic vendors have kid themes. The weight of the Federal Government then would fall inexorably on that vendor and on website owners tacitly fostering that vendor. Look, the last thing the industry and this site should be doing, however "cool" it may appear, is to portray itself as "freedom rebels". Should that occur, the industry will be perceived and treated as irresponsible dope dealers. Get ahead of the curve. By the way, I notice you're resident in St. Louis. There is a quality international firm (the oldest in your state) in the Metropolitan Building downtown, Bryan Cave LLP. I like the Adam's Mark.

 

[AngusATAT]

JustJulie, thank you for that opening. There are all sorts of ways to put pressure on vendors. However, that is not my thing. My thing is to make this site more responsible.

Then perhaps you should just give up now, because we aren't going to be changing to suit you.

This is a discussion forum. We don't regulate the industry. We are here for the vapers. We aren't lawyers or policy makers. The majority of the staff are just volunteers who help run the place in their spare time.

Perhaps you'd be best served by creating your own forum site that can be run as you see fit.

 

[Vocalek]

Now if I wanted to put pressure on vendors, rather than cajole you folks into being more site-responsible, it would be this easy. Pick up the phone. Calls a couple of former classmates and/or colleagues in the admininstration. Complain that certain nic vendors have kid themes. The weight of the Federal Government then would fall inexorably on that vendor and on website owners tacitly fostering that vendor.

That could backfire big time. Pretty soon, because of all the citizen complaints the federal lawmakers are receiving, there could be a bill introduced in the US Senate or House to totally outlaw all sales regardless of the good, bad, or neutral behavior of the vendor.

BTW: We send out Thank You emails to everyone who donates to CASAA. We haven't seen your $10,000 contribution yet.