SE, NJoy vs FDA -- Discussion

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MoonRose

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Delicacy sometimes translates into stupidity, short-sightedness and inaction. If ECF's members were on top of their game, they would quickly tell TW to jump off a cliff if they don't ditch their cartoon advertising. Some of you seem to have no idea how precarious a position the nic juice industry is in. However, if you do, and you still "support" TW, then you need to up your strategic IQ substantially. Now for those of you who did not read my earlier post, and therefore are jumping in with absurd off-point comments, I said, "Totally Wicked always is going to have a regulatory problem of some sort ... " The full flavor, as it were, of those regulatory problems need not occur in the instant lawsuit, but some of them might. Indeed, TW could be regulated completely out of USA-market in short order regardless of the outcome of the present lawsuit. Now I apologize if I offended your delicate sensibilities, but time is quickly running out, and this is not the time for unmistakable amateurs encouraging TW contrary to our collective self-interests. Oh, by the way, if you still don't like my remarks, then ask for a refund. Duke-braggart, here is one for you: I didn't bother applying there. It was too low on my list. That is the truth. Sorry.

I think you need to take that holier than thou attitude of yours and stuff it. You have absolutely no right to be insinuating that we are stupid, short-sighted amateurs.
 

Big Sheepherder

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My remarks are not directed at Julie. However, there a few other veterans who are routinuely juvenile and moronic. I don't suffer fools lightly, particularly at this juncture. More to the point, I have zero invested in this industry, but for those of you who are invested, ignore my strategic observations at your own pecuniary peril. You would be well-advised to check them out with A+ counsel of your choice. The brunt of that expense should be borne by the industry. Listening or not, acting or not, is entirely up to you. It's your baby.
 

JustJulie

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What's the definition of the term "flagrant waste"?

. . . A busload of lawyers going off the edge of a cliff with a vacant seat. :laugh:

Big Sheepherder . . . my intention was not to "brag" about going to Duke . . . it was a joke about "devils" in an attempt to lighten the conversation a bit. Thanks for the kind words, friends, but it's really no big deal. If Sheepherder sticks around, he'll likely figure out that most of us on this thread have learned how to disagree without being disagreeable. And if he doesn't figure it out, we'll just ignore him.

By the way, are you sure you're not PhiHalcyon? :facepalm:

No movement on either docket.

Question: If TW does file a lawsuit, is everyone okay with it just being tracked and updated on this thread along with the njoy case?
 

Big Sheepherder

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I've evaluated situations like this longer than many of ECF's member have been on this planet. They all have the same heartbeat. I've read this and other "action" threads. Despite the apparent effort that went into them, you folks have made lots of amateurish mistakes. Some of the suggested courses of action, and suggested communications to legislators, were so counterproductive that the authors would have been fired immediately from nearly any minimally reputable law or PR firm. Do yourselves a favor. Re-read SOTTERA, INC. v. FOOD & DRUG ADMINISTRATION.-.Argued September 23, 2010. Stop making therapeutic claims, particularly if you are directly or indirectly associated with any seller, distributor or manufacturer, lest you end up causing them to fall under the FDCA. Also stop exaggerating the effect of SOTTERA, INC. v. FOOD & DRUG ADMINISTRATION.-.Argued September 23, 2010. In that case, the Federal DC Circuit Court of Appeals merely affirmed a Federal District Court (trial level) ruling that the FDA cannot regulate under the FDCA (a very onerous regimen) any particular e-cig maker, distributor or seller in the absence of associated therapeutic claims. However, that case does contains strong judicial encouragement for pursuing regulations/action under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (the "Act"). As you may know, Federal Courts generally do not adjudicate hypothetical cases due to Art. III of the US Constitution (the actual "case or controversy" requirement). Inasmuch as action under the Act and related, developed regulations were not then before them, the case was not decided on that basis. That which is down the road, however, is fairly obvious. There really is not much room for future optimism in certain, but not all, e-cig-related areas. There will be substantially more regulation and a significant chance that various nic flavored juiced will be banned. The model is already there in the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, both in the actual terms of the law and its underlying congressional findings. (It is the law that deprived me of buying precious Djarum Originals in the USA due to explicit gateway concerns regarding kids.) Your only hope at the national level, which is where this is going to be decided in short order, is as I have laid out. You need professional PR, a top shelf firm both for alternative legislative suggestions/regulatory guidelines and for litigation (if necessary and prudent), lobbyists, targeted campaign contributions, and clean non-juvenile-appealing advertising. (Juvenile advertising with the standard disclaimer is very counterproductive.) If you don't yet have a strong trade association to fund it, then you are going to have to rely on the manufacturers. I leave you with a bit of classical wisdom: "Hope, danger's comforter, may be indulged in by those who have abundant resources, if not without loss at all events without ruin; but its nature is to be extravagant, and those who go so far as to put their all upon the venture see it in its true colours only when they are ruined; but so long as the discovery would enable them to guard against it, it is never found wanting. Let not this be the case with you, who are weak and hang on a single turn of the scale; nor be like the vulgar, who, abandoning such security as human means may still afford, when visible hopes fail them in extremity, turn to invisible, to prophecies and oracles, and other such inventions that delude men with hopes to their destruction."
 
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JustJulie

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I've evaluated situations like this longer than many of ECF's member have been on this planet. They all have the same heartbeat. I've read this and other "action" threads. Despite the apparent effort that went into them, you folks have made lots of amateurish mistakes. Some of the suggested courses of action, and suggested communications to legislators, were so counterproductive that the authors would have been fired immediately from nearly any minimally reputable law or PR firm. Do yourselves a favor. Re-read SOTTERA, INC. v. FOOD & DRUG ADMINISTRATION.-.Argued September 23, 2010. Stop making therapeutic claims, particularly if you are directly or indirectly associated with any seller, distributor or manufacturer, lest you end up causing them to fall under FDCA. Also stop exaggerating the effect of SOTTERA, INC. v. FOOD & DRUG ADMINISTRATION.-.Argued September 23, 2010. In that case, the Federal DC Circuit Court of Appeals merely affirmed a Federal District Court (trial level) ruling that the FDA cannot regulate under the FDCA (a very onerous regimen) any particular e-cig maker, distributor or seller in the absence of associated therapeutic claims. However, that case does contains strong judicial encouragement for pursuing regulations/action under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (the "Act"). As you may know, Federal Courts generally do not adjudicate hypothetical cases due to Art. III of the US Constitution (the actual "controversy or requirement"). Inasmuch as action under the Act and related, developed regulations were not then before them, the case was not decided on that basis. That which is down the road, however, is fairly obvious. There really is not much room for future optimism in certain, but not all, e-cig-related areas. There will be substantially more regulation and a significant chance that various nic flavored juiced will be banned. The model is already there in the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, both in the actual terms of the law and its underlying congressional findings. (It is the law that deprived me of buying precious Djarum Originals in the USA due to explicit gateway concerns regarding kids.) Your only hope at the national level, which is where this is going to be decided in short order, is as I have laid out. You need professional PR, a top shelf firm both for alternative legislative suggestions/regulatory guidelines and for litigation (if necessary and prudent), lobbyists, targeted campaign contributions, and clean non-juvenile-appealing advertising. (Juvenile advertising with the standard disclaimer is very counterproductive.) If you don't yet have a strong trade association to fund it, then you are going to have to rely on the manufacturers. I leave you with a bit of classical wisdom: "Hope, danger's comforter, may be indulged in by those who have abundant resources, if not without loss at all events without ruin; but its nature is to be extravagant, and those who go so far as to put their all upon the venture see it in its true colours only when they are ruined; but so long as the discovery would enable them to guard against it, it is never found wanting. Let not this be the case with you, who are weak and hang on a single turn of the scale; nor be like the vulgar, who, abandoning such security as human means may still afford, when visible hopes fail them in extremity, turn to invisible, to prophecies and oracles, and other such inventions that delude men with hopes to their destruction."

Yup. PhiHalcyon. :facepalm:
 

tvujec

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Yup. PhiHalcyon. :facepalm:

That was my guess as well, but Phi wasn't a lawyer, and Sheepherder claims he is. Although from his style of argument, I doubt he manages to persuade anyone in court, much less herd sheep :p

Seriously Sheepherder, if you're listening, it is almost like you try really, really, really hard to make everyone disagree with your argument.
 

Big Sheepherder

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What can I say? When the sheep run wild, the dog gets nippy ... oh, and tvujec, you get an F-grade on reading comprehension. A bit of information: over 90% of well-heeled civil litigation is over and done with pretrial. It depends largely on the strength vel non of a case. One hires good counsel from an established firm to avoid litigation and trial. Judges and politicians pay close attention to them, but are frequently less attentive for others.
 
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Yup. PhiHalcyon. :facepalm:

More like a hybrid of Phi+Story. :blink:

From what I can pull out of that wall of text, he is not completely off-base but he's unnecessarily obsessing over a single point of contention: that "cartoon" advertising appears to be marketing that targets a younger audience. That is such a terribly piddling point because the answer is obvious: If a court rules that cartoon advertising equals marketing to children, then Totally Wicked will not be able to market in the United States without removing their current branding. IMO, it's unlikely that the anti's will even bother with that pointless argument until all the dust has settled and the FDA is looking to save a little face so they can come out of this bragging about how they took the cartoon characters off e-cigarette packages, forbade flavors with candy names, and pronounced that they will ban any new products that aren't safer than current cigarettes. Viva la status quo! :blush:
 

yvilla

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By the way, are you sure you're not PhiHalcyon? :facepalm:

LOL. No he's not Julie. You can tell because he's at least not insisting that he's the only one who knows the true interpretation of the definition of "tobacco product" as found in the FSTPCA, and that both Judge Leon AND the Court of Appeals have to be wrong. :laugh: (Which Phi is still harping on over at VF, under the name of Gravity99).

However, he sure could be his twin brother! :p
 
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DC2

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In case you are NOT a troll, let me just say that in reading your wall of text I did not learn anything I didn't already know.

I am aware that saying we "quit smoking" is complicating matters.
I am aware that regulating them as a tobacco product poses significant issues that should concern us deeply.
I am aware that we could greatly benefit from having a lot of money we don't have to do things we can not currently do.
And I am aware that a strong trade association may be the only hope of getting significant monies moving in the right direction.

I learned all these things from the folks here on these threads.
Yes, the same folks you are insulting with your blanket statements.

It sounds like you know what you're talking about, but you brought nothing new to the conversation as far as I can tell.
At least not yet.
 
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Sassyonemeis

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Jan 15, 2011
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I am not a lawyer, and you guys can laugh me off the forum as well, but I agree with this. This guy has been trying to make a point, albeit in a less than appreciated manner, it is a point nonetheless. And of course there's always the possibility that he might be right even if we dont like his delivery.

From this an a few other threads, it really seems to me that there's more than a few "attitudes" around here, and then of course, there are a few who quickly turn ugly the moment they read something they dont like. I think the guy is trying to help, and yeah we may not like the packaging, but it's still an offer of help, and would it be wise to reject it?? Really?

For the record, I'm not a fan of lawyers either, but I am a huge fan of vaping and I'd really hate to see this freedom taken away from me over a battle of the "tudes"

From what I can pull out of that wall of text, he is not completely off-base but he's unnecessarily obsessing over a single point of contention: that "cartoon" advertising appears to be marketing that targets a younger audience. That is such a terribly piddling point because the answer is obvious: If a court rules that cartoon advertising equals marketing to children, then Totally Wicked will not be able to market in the United States without removing their current branding. IMO, it's unlikely that the anti's will even bother with that pointless argument until all the dust has settled and the FDA is looking to save a little face so they can come out of this bragging about how they took the cartoon characters off e-cigarette packages, forbade flavors with candy names, and pronounced that they will ban any new products that aren't safer than current cigarettes. Viva la status quo! :blush:
 

Big Sheepherder

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Thulium, with all due respect, if people are listening to you, they shouldn't. Your analysis of my remarks misses the forest not through the trees, but through blades of grass. Grasp the bigger picture. Most of you seem lackadaisical about the unmistakable field day someone could have with the entire industry from a PR/legislative/regulatory perspective using one sick or busted kid and TW's website as the poster child for what regulations they, not you, deem reasonable and prudent. The less intelligent this industry is in its politics and appearances, the more onerous the regulations will be. You will listen, whether to me or not, when adverse consequences hit the fan. Then you'll be muttering, probably silently to yourself, "Damn, that guy was mean to us, but he was right." In other words, have some responsible standards, more than you now have, and enforce them. Now if it's only that little point you care to take away from all of this, then so be it. The rest of it, quite frankly, is above this group's pay grade, as others have made clear. I will keep that in mind. FYI, I've never contributed to an online forum in the past.
 
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