FDA Sen Johnson (R-Wis) demands answers from FDA RE deeming

[Lessifer]

A lot of people here are a little fixated on blame assignment here. In my experience that exercise is not very helpful/productive/intelligent. I never viewed this struggle as retailer versus vaper, as I thought that we were all in this against the FDA and company. But I seem to be alone in that, and apologize if I am misguided.

I was hoping to have a productive discussion on the best strategies to beat back a terrible regulatory regime, but seems like I'm looking in the wrong place here.

Good luck all, I'm out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm sorry, but if you wanted a discussion, and not to throw blame, perhaps you shouldn't have posted this:

I know how you feel brother. I'm the lobbyist for SFATA, and the retail and manufacturers are all involved and doing all they can. But when you try to motivate those actual vapers.... they want someone else to do it. Even the old guys! It's crazy! They'll stockpile $5000 worth of crap, but won't fight for the right to not have to do it.

Ok, let me have it from the couch fellas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Those who are on ECF, and those who are stockpiling are the ones who know what is happening and are likely the majority of vapers who ARE involved and actively fighting. We don't have the numbers. Even if EVERY member of ECF was involved, we still wouldn't have the numbers. The only way to get the numbers we need is to get the message out to vapers who are NOT members of forums and facebook groups. The only way I can see to do that is through the vendors.

Vendors who are members of SFATA are obviously doing something, but how many vendors aren't members?

 

[r055co]

I know how you feel brother. I'm the lobbyist for SFATA, and the retail and manufacturers are all involved and doing all they can. But when you try to motivate those actual vapers.... they want someone else to do it. Even the old guys! It's crazy! They'll stockpile $5000 worth of crap, but won't fight for the right to not have to do it.

Ok, let me have it from the couch fellas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well maybe instead of .....ing about the vapers who the majority of them have no idea due to the 90% of the retailers and manufacturers are doing nothing you could get on their cases. It's not like their livelihood is at risk ya know.

I'm sorry, but if you wanted a discussion, and not to throw blame, perhaps you shouldn't have posted this:

Those who are on ECF, and those who are stockpiling are the ones who know what is happening and are likely the majority of vapers who ARE involved and actively fighting. We don't have the numbers. Even if EVERY member of ECF was involved, we still wouldn't have the numbers. The only way to get the numbers we need is to get the message out to vapers who are NOT members of forums and facebook groups. The only way I can see to do that is through the vendors.

Vendors who are members of SFATA are obviously doing something, but how many vendors aren't members?

Yep, you beat me to it.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Truthdog]

I don't disagree with any of this. SFATA has about 1,500 members. That's about 10% of all US vaping retail and mfgrs. That's how it is in virtually every sector of our economy, the few lead and the large majority rides free.

We are developing and executing a strategy to first change the date (to preserve all current products) and then change the regulatory regime to focus on harm reduction and separate us from tobacco. Allowing truthful claims to be made is one of our goals as well.

A major part of that is to recruit much more retail and manufacturer support. And a campaign to get them to educate/motivate their customer base. We will def need both. Doesn't help that we have so many competing orgs, but we are all coordinating now, so I'm more optimistic.

Incidentally, I have a basement full of stockpiles and building and DIY supplies, so I will be vaping regardless, but not gonna sit back and let MY effing government lie to people and make them continue as slaves to smoking.

Hope each of us will do what they can.

See ya'll,

Mike


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Robino1]

Since I realized that vaping was in trouble, I have been fighting. Sometimes I do get depressed and feel like giving up. Then I get my second wind. Sometimes just by trying to make another person, that is about ready to throw in the towel, feel better and to keep up the fight.

The ones that are in this section of the forum are the people that are fighting and have been fighting. For a very long time.

We call, we write letters, we email, we tweet. We also look for guidance. Some of us look for tangible things to do. Our letters get canned responses. We write more letters and pretty soon the canned responses don't even come our way anymore.

We have silence where we used to have, those leading the groups, engaged with us.

Sometimes it feels like we are preaching to the choir. In a sense, we are.

We all go through cycles. Fight, get frustrated, give up for a skinny minute, take a deep breath, go back into the fray to fight some more.

We just Can't give up. Ever.

 

[motordude]

Since I realized that vaping was in trouble, I have been fighting. Sometimes I do get depressed and feel like giving up. Then I get my second wind. Sometimes just by trying to make another person, that is about ready to throw in the towel, feel better and to keep up the fight.

The ones that are in this section of the forum are the people that are fighting and have been fighting. For a very long time.

We call, we write letters, we email, we tweet. We also look for guidance. Some of us look for tangible things to do. Our letters get canned responses. We write more letters and pretty soon the canned responses don't even come our way anymore.

We have silence where we used to have, those leading the groups, engaged with us.

Sometimes it feels like we are preaching to the choir. In a sense, we are.

We all go through cycles. Fight, get frustrated, give up for a skinny minute, take a deep breath, go back into the fray to fight some more.

We just Can't give up. Ever.

I know, I just needed to vent.

All we can really do is our part. No value in trying to motivate others, as those who are self-motivated don't need it, and those who need it, won't do it.

Just do our best, each of us, whatever that means. We'll see where it lands.

One example - I decided to cancel my Mastercard after their recent stance against vaping. I'm not trying to encourage others to do the same, but it's what I wanted to do.

If it was my only card, I'd not have cancelled it (to be clear). We can/should only do what we can, and may the forces be with us.

Thanks DP!

 

[Robino1]

I know, I just needed to vent.

I know, believe me, I know! Been there so many times myself. {{{ hugs }}} Hang in there.

 

[ENAUD]

I think a large part of the problem in getting the majority of vapers involved, even if they could be reached via their B&M or online vendors, is that the regs implementation is staggered over a two year time frame. There is no sense of urgency even if you can make them somewhat aware of what is going on. It's like the FDA is playing Grand master chess, and the whole vaping world is twiddling our thumbs. They dropped the bomb late in an election cycle, staggered the implementation out over a couple years, and as we've already seen, waged a war of attrition against the industry. Many have already gone by the wayside, and probably the majority remaining will do likewise. Meanwhile, those of us who are really peeved early on will in large numbers run out of gas or just become apathetic, and those who realize too late that the hammer dropped won't know where to turn or what to do because it will be pretty much game over by 2018 if things don't drastically change through some miracle of intervention, or public perception and policy change by the alphabet soup gang.

How do you get people to care and get active when they can walk into their local B&M and it's business as usual? You can't, they've got a whole lot more to worry about on their plate than worrying about not being able to buy juice and coils a year and a half from now...

 

[r055co]

I think a large part of the problem in getting the majority of vapers involved, even if they could be reached via their B&M or online vendors, is that the regs implementation is staggered over a two year time frame. There is no sense of urgency even if you can make them somewhat aware of what is going on. It's like the FDA is playing Grand master chess, and the whole vaping world is twiddling our thumbs. They dropped the bomb late in an election cycle, staggered the implementation out over a couple years, and as we've already seen, waged a war of attrition against the industry. Many have already gone by the wayside, and probably the majority remaining will do likewise. Meanwhile, those of us who are really peeved early on will in large numbers run out of gas or just become apathetic, and those who realize too late that the hammer dropped won't know where to turn or what to do because it will be pretty much game over by 2018 if things don't drastically change through some miracle of intervention, or public perception and policy change by the alphabet soup gang.

How do you get people to care and get active when they can walk into their local B&M and it's business as usual? You can't, they've got a whole lot more to worry about on their plate than worrying about not being able to buy juice and coils a year and a half from now...

I think it'll hit harder home when it's actually forbidden and enforced for shops build and wick at the end of December without a manufacturing license. I'm genuinely stunned at the number of Vapers who have RDA'S and RTA's that won't do it for themselves.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[r77r7r]

We have silence where we used to have, those leading the groups, engaged with us.

Yes, Maam

 

[r055co]

The ones that are in this section of the forum are the people that are fighting and have been fighting. For a very long time.

We call, we write letters, we email, we tweet. We also look for guidance. Some of us look for tangible things to do. Our letters get canned responses. We write more letters and pretty soon the canned responses don't even come our way anymore.

We have silence where we used to have, those leading the groups, engaged with us.

Sometimes it feels like we are preaching to the choir. In a sense, we are.

We all go through cycles. Fight, get frustrated, give up for a skinny minute, take a deep breath, go back into the fray to fight some more.

We just Can't give up. Ever.

Yes, Maam

Don't give up but also face a very sad reality, we're going to get royally screwed.

Best we have to hope for is heavy restrictive regulations and obscene taxation.

Thus the need for a stockpile.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[r77r7r]

Don't give up but also face a very sad reality, we're going to get royally screwed.

Best we have to hope for is heavy restrictive regulations and obscene taxation.

Thus the need for a stockpile.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Sorry that your outlook is so grim. For today, I'll not be stockpiling. In my life, I have witnessed mountains being moved.

 

[snork]

We have silence where we used to have, those leading the groups, engaged with us.

I'll pick this little nugget out too.
I used to feel ECF was THE place to get information straight from the horse's mouths. These days I feel abandoned as seemingly all the leaders left for other forms of social media. Perhaps for some, Facebook, twitter etc. are good ways to engage, I find them revolting. Undoubtedly though they reach a wider audience and my self imposed isolation has colored my mind into believing all vapers have been abandoned. But really, it's just me.
At any rate, some months back I decided I wouldn't be donating to any organizations, CASAA included, unless they maintained a presence here. Saved me money. Meanwhile, I talk to people and write letters on my own.

 

[Lessifer]

I'll pick this little nugget out too.
I used to feel ECF was THE place to get information straight from the horse's mouths. These days I feel abandoned as seemingly all the leaders left for other forms of social media. Perhaps for some, Facebook, twitter etc. are good ways to engage, I find them revolting. Undoubtedly though they reach a wider audience and my self imposed isolation has colored my mind into believing all vapers have been abandoned. But really, it's just me.
At any rate, some months back I decided I wouldn't be donating to any organizations, CASAA included, unless they maintained a presence here. Saved me money. Meanwhile, I talk to people and write letters on my own.

I wouldn't exactly call them "engaged" on the other social media outlets either. They'll post stuff, but it's not as if they're having actual discussions.

We've had one direction for a long time now, contact your reps, urge them to support CB and HR2058.

Sure, there are "plans" and some organize fights against more local threats, but there is no vaping movement.

 

[r055co]

Sorry that your outlook is so grim. For today, I'll not be stockpiling. In my life, I have witnessed mountains being moved.

Just facing the reality and choosing not to bury my head in the sand.

Basically hope for the best but prepare for the worst, it's foolish not to.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[snork]

I wouldn't exactly call them "engaged" on the other social media outlets either. They'll post stuff, but it's not as if they're having actual discussions.

We've had one direction for a long time now, contact your reps, urge them to support CB and HR2058.

Sure, there are "plans" and some organize fights against more local threats, but there is no vaping movement.

I agree. I feel the vaping movement transformed in large measure into a "save our rights to buy and sell crap" movement. Being a vaper in 2011 was much different than it is now.

 

[r055co]

I agree. I feel the vaping movement transformed in large measure into a "save our rights to buy and sell crap" movement. Being a vaper in 2011 was much different than it is now.

Big money is involved, massive money being lost due to people for the first time successfully quitting smoking.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[r77r7r]

Just facing the reality and choosing not to bury my head in the sand.

Basically hope for the best but prepare for the worst, it's foolish not to.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Bit of an offensive reply towards me there. Sorry if you took my post the wrong way.

 

[r055co]

Bit of an offensive reply towards me there. Sorry if you took my post the wrong way.

Offensive? Really?
OK, sorry if you get offended so easily.



Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[skoony]

I am concerned with this talk of vendors not taking up the cause. Why would they?
If your state is anything like Minnesota, one as a vendor plays by the states mandates.
Minnesota's liquor and tobacco enforcement administrators are institutionalized from
the city level up to the state. They come into your store and tell you what to do,period.
Non-compliance is non-compliance if they say it is. A court will rarely rule against them
if at all.
Now take into account all the other various agencies whom at will can come into your
store checking facilities and paper work for any number of violations depending on the
agency they represent. A smart vendor will not post targets on his walls or counter space.
If you offend one agency you offend them all. You would be astounded at the amount of violations
across the board a store can have when they all work together. Everything from signage
to floor coverings had better be compliant. Your bathrooms better be clean enough to eat
off the floor.
Lets not even consider that if in the tobacco business likely 80% of all the other stores
in any given strip mall are owned by non-smokers some of whom could be dedicated ANTZ
types you are likely being pressured thru the landlord not to tick your neighbors off.
St. Paul has had a anti-liquor establishment policy for over 30 years.
Then you have your own customers to deal with. You know. The ones that would
be offended that you do not want further regulation because of "the chillin" and or
we have a right to know whats in our juice. (as if someone was using dirty mineral
spirits used to clean their paint brushes)
There is no up side for a vendor to advocate that would negate the down sides.

Regards
Mike

 

[MacTechVpr]

Not stupid at all. Quite insightful and accurate in my opinion.

The overreach exhibited by this agency is absolutely staggering. I get what you're saying but I'm not sure a physical attack on a governing body is in our best interest at this time.

That's not to say that I don't LIKE the idea (because I DO), but it might better if we follow the legislative processes, with the threat of not getting re-elected hanging over their heads.

The best thing we can probably do right now is pick up the phone.

For now.

Not to encourage aggression DP. Been a classical lib and libertarian in thought and practice all my life. Point is since the legislative process was corrupted going back to the 90's when I was tasked as a corp analyst on tab what good comes of cutting off a few branches now? Certainly no expert on any aspect of current legislation and agencies. But the end game I see on this track is a more entrenched, institutionalized tobacco control over organic nicotine increasingly legitimized by this precarious and hazardous process of trying to fix bad law. One whose net result is to effectively if not explicitly result in a treatment of nic and perhaps many natural substances similarly, as a drug. The real objective from the beginning in my estimation. The blurring of common understanding as to what nic really is and does. Don't see how some pruning is going to fix that. But that's just me as a long term observer once in the thick of it. As for directly attacking the principal proponents of such .......ization of language and legislation, I'm all for it, in principle. Counting on Johnson or grandfather adjustments is sorta like startin' to tie our shoe laces long after the starting gun's been fired. I would add too that as for the typical member of the public, new or prospective vaper much of the nuances of this struggle is lost. But it's eminently clear to most I think that nic, once explained as what it truly is, is definitely not tobacco. The next reaction I think is as predictable as commonplace…why can nothing be done about this distortion of practical reality? Year after year, decade after decade?

Maybe the obvious is stupid but are we fanning the smoke to spite the fire?

Not opposed to any of the efforts or solutions in play. And so grateful for each and every one of you. We should all encourage all do our part in any way possible. Think we have a window of opportunity now and perhaps briefly to refocus.

Gotta run. Got a bird waitin' for me. Happy Thanksgiving all and…

Good luck.