Serious Frustration, Recommend Modern Recipe Notation

[Litcube]

Can we start using this format or something similar around these parts?:

Warm Apple Pie (85%/15%)
- CAP Apple Pie 20%
- LA Cotton Candy 2%
- TPA Sweetener 2%


It's simple and it tells you exactly what to do. This example uses 85% PG, 15% VG and has three ingredients portioned by volume. You know who the manufacturers are and what products to use.

There's so much crap in the DIY forum, it's turning into a mess of misinformation and red herrings. If this is the place where we're supposed to learn, we have a long way to go. There's countless examples of someone starting a thread and getting pages of absolute drivel as a response. Anyone try to find a recipe only to have to wade through pages of useless words? Here's an example:

Post: Hey guys, anyone have a good butterscotch recipe?

Response 1: yea i love butterscotch, have you tried x,y,z?
Response 2: yeah, try 5% caramel it helps a lot
Response 3: i don't like butterscotch!
Response 4: have u tried adding EM?
Response 5: heres my recipe butterscotch 15%, em 14%, AUC 10%

Everyone means well, I believe that. But, folks: none of those 5 responses are helpful. None of them. "Have you tried x,y,z" is not helpful. Without percentages or the manufacturer/make, the original poster is left the exact crap shoot they were in before he asked the question. "Have you tried adding EM?" That is not helpful. How do you know the poster hasn't used sweetener in the past? What if the butterscotch he's making is too sweet? Also, how is he supposed to know what EM is? The only response that answers the question (as per usual) is response 5. And that is also useless. Who makes the butterscotch he's using? EM 14%? What? 14% ethyl maltol crystals? Loranne's Cotton Candy 14%? Or are we talking a dilution of 50% ethyl maltol at 14%? What the hell is AUC?

The poster asked for a recipe. Usually, that's what folks are asking for when they say they're having difficulty creating a flavour.

We're supposed to be here to help each other, and I honestly believe we're doing everyone a disservice by throwing up barriers when answering questions.

Edit: Wrong forum! This is embarrassing.

 

[retrox]

Heh. I was gonna say...

I know where you're coming from. I went through tons of raw materials in my early DIY days trying various "recipes" that I found online, most of which turned out to be complete busts. Problem is, there are just so many variables to take into account; not to mention the enormous range of personal tastes from one vaper to the next. It's like trying to tell someone how much salt to put on their potatoes or how much ranch dressing to put on their salad to achieve optimal flavor potential. Ya just can't do it.

One of the most significant variables that can't be reliably accounted for is hardware. I make juice that tastes fantastic on my RDA's and mechs, but not so much on my girlfriend's eGo's with her Vivi Nova tanks. I make some juice for her that tastes good on her gear, but makes me gag when I try to vape it on mine. Silica vs. cotton vs. mesh vs. ceramic... carto vs. clearo vs. RTA... they can all produce drastically different flavor results with the same juice.

Even with some kind of standard notation, online recipes would remain mostly useless other than as general guidelines for flavor combinations that work well together. Unfortunately, like myself, most DIY'ers will end up learning that the hard way.

 

[retired1]

Moved to DIY E-Liquid

 

[Hoosier]

First notion that needs addressed is calling EM a sweetener. It's not. That notion has caused much frustration for new mixers that think EM=Sweetener. (Yes, it can sweeten, but it's not a good sweetener, and it does so much more.)

Second, I think of recipes as:
X% total flavoring then a ratio of flavorings to make that total.

Advantage, for me, is that I can work on two different things separately, the Flavoring Level, and the Flavoring Notes.

But, then again, I've come to the conclusion that posing a recipe just leads to me receiving grief, so I don't do, and haven't done it, for a long time.

 

[Muggs]

I hear you my friend. I try to keep my recipes simple when I post them. For example this is a great recipe.

Cherry Almond Pipe Tobacco (75%/25%)
- Coumarin Pipe Tobacco 10%
- Toasted Almond 5%
- Maraschino Cherry 4%

 

[dannyv45]

There are just to may people and to many different ways of doing things. Some like drops some like percentages and some like ml's. Taming the format around here is like trying to direct the path of the annual running of the bulls. The best thing you can do is try to learn the language around here and try to direct the flow of conversation of your threads. There's a wealth of information around here you just have to do some work to find it.

 

[patkin]

I've spent the majority of my research time wading through DIY looking for how particular flavorings (either by type or brand) taste. With just a few exceptions, no joy. Saw a lot of "like" or "don't like" which tells me nothing. I don't mind because I have the time to do that and I've learned a lot but I can see where those without the time would get really frustrated. This kind of info is not something you can go to youtube reviews for. I get that percentage will make a difference in taste but, for instance, if a brand of watermelon tastes like jolly rancher or fresh fruit it would be nice to hear that. Even if its Oba Oba (one of the first I tried to research,) I would like to see at least an attempt at describing it. Truthfully, the old search engine here cut down on a lot of wasted time but, alas, its gone and venturing onto DIY is going to be time-consuming.

 

[JohnnyDill]

^^^What Danny said regarding learning the language^^^ -When I made the decision to get into DIY, I spend well over a week, simply reading threads to learn the language of DIY, ESPECIALLY all those acronyms. {I spent days and days on that immense Halo clone thread}

I wrote down many abbreviations, acronyms and phrases, as if I was studying for a test. I think that I passed.

 

[rowdyplace]

Litcube - I agree with your thoughts. If only we could/would... But, Danny is correct.

Somewhere in the middle of the two opinions stated, there needs to be a happy medium.

I found a recipe that calls for x% butterscotch. Without identifying the maker (not the seller), I have a big problem making this juice.

​

Yesterday, I received both of these from Wizard Labs. Which one should I use in this recipe? Are they the same flavor? Strength? Notice that one is very dark, and the other is clear. One is TFA and the other is FA - so, at a minimum, the maker needs to be known when a recipe is shared.

Just my 2 cents worth...

 

[THnCS]

I agree with the OP, but realize that Danny has the most logical statement. Open forums, are like herding cats!!

I am pretty new to DIY, about a month or two in. I have only shared one recipe, but did it exactly like the OP did. That is the way I would prefer it also. Doesn't matter if you are making a 3ml sample or doing a 60ml batch, you have all the info you need.

The PG/VG ratio is nice. I am a heavy VG guy, and use heavy flavoring. A Pg blend of one of my recipes, may blow your taste buds up!!

Maybe we could dedicate a sticky for recipes in this format??

 

[ncpatches]

When I started DIY, only about 3 months ago, I had HIGH hopes for all the delicious sounding recipes I had read.

Unfortunately, after following at least 15-20, I was NOT impressed.

Yes, flavor is subjective. All you're going to get is a starting point by following the recipes anyway. From there it is, 'increase this', 'reduce that', 'add this' and 'remove that', until you find what works for YOU.

I still read recipes just to get an idea of the flavors I need for certain things, but following them? My own ideas have worked out much better than anything I found online. Again, flavor is subjective.

As for having a specific way to write the recipes out, sure, I'd agree that a standard format would be much more convenient, but getting everyone to use it, would be as another poster stated, 'herding cats!'

 

[daath]

As mentioned already, EM is not a sweetener, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the "standard" is that EM is a PG soluition with 10% EM if not stated otherwise, and when people suggest EM, it's usually 1-2 perhaps a few more drops per 10 ml. Not to sweeten, but to add fullness and moisture.

I agree on your other points. On my site I have given users free reign to name their flavors, which is a real pain. If I could re-do that decision I would. I try to clean up the flavor names once in a while, but it's really a a sisyphean task. But MOSTLY it's succesful. My naming convention is:

"Sweet Cream (TPA)" for "Sweet Cream" made by The Perfumer's (or Flavor) Apprentice.

FA is Flavour Art
FW is Flavor West
FE Is Flavor Express
TE is Tobacco Express
SM is Seedman's (right now it's also "Seedmans")
C9V is Cloud 9 Vapor
Cap is Capellas
DV is Decadent Vapours
HC is Health Cabin
LA is LorAnn
LF is Liberty Flights
MBV is Mt Baker Vapor
TW is Totally Wicked
WL is Wizard Labs
OSDIYS is One Stop DIY Shop
INW is Inawera
TWOJ is Twoj Liquid

The more people use the same names on the site, the more interesting the flavor details page becomes, because it will show minimum, maximum, average and median flavor percentages, you can see other people's ratings of the flavor, and their notes.

A recipe should look something like this, in my opinion:

7 Leaves Ultimate (FA) 2%
American Red (DV) 7%
Shade (FA) 4%

 

[eethr]

A recipe should look something like this, in my opinion:

7 Leaves Ultimate (FA) 2%
American Red (DV) 7%
Shade (FA) 4%

I think including your PG/VG percentages is important, because it changes the total percentage of flavoring needed.

Or list the flavor percentages as parts of the total flavoring added, then the reader can figure how much total flavoring to add according to his PG/VG ratio.

P.S. Thanks for the abbreviations list---that's a great help!

 

[rowdyplace]

The first line of the recipe - as suggested by the OP in his opening post - contains the pg/vg ratio. It is part of the recipe title. (See Post #1)

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

I totally agree. With some flavor brands it takes much more flavoring than with others. One recipe calling for 10% butterscotch may only be 5% with another brand. Of course taste is subjective. I've seen people post they used 25% of a flavor with the same brand I use only 15% or less... A recipe may be perfect for one, but too rich for another...

Posting brands and pg/vg ratios helps at least get someone to a starting point.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Being new I'd have to agree that the recipe format must include PG/VG ratio in some format (50:50), (75p:25v).

With the PG to VG ratio not always being equal I think it would be helpful to newcomers to note which is what; 25:75 is 25% PG or VG? I presume most use PG first, it is confusing at first though.

Maurice