side effect of vaping? help?

[Fudgeman]

About a year ago, I ordered a bunch of stuff from bestecig.com after hearing about them on this site. The amount of info here is totally overwhelming but such a great resource and much thanks to all the people who have helped out the ignorant newbs like me : )

Looking back at my order after digging through my email it looks like I ordered a Mini e Cigarette (BE901/DSE901) and a USB e-cigarette-BE103U (just copied and pasted). I rarely used the battery powered one as it was terrible in comparison to the USB e cig which was great except having to constantly refill. I recently decided to ship all my gear to a friend who was still smoking cigarettes. I told her how I had not smoked a cigarette since getting my e-cig and how thrilled I was with not smelling like a nasty ashtray and not having to sit outside in terrible weather etc etc - all the things we love about vaping. why did I send her everything? because I wanted her to get off cigs and the following was happening to me:

Whenever I would enjoy a vape, I would inevitably get very sluggish and tired to the point where I didnt want to get any work done or get anything done, I would just want to take a nap. I dont need help wanting to sleep! so, I figured it was time to quit everything all together. Needless to say she is shipping me back the battery ecig . I now own a pack of real smokes for the first time in a year and its not good. On the other hand, I figured if I only had the crappy battery version around, I would not vape as much and not get as tired and wiped out etc.

here's what I would appreciate some help with. I just got back on this forum after a year and heard about the VG liquid.

1. Does anyone here experience the fatigue I was describing after vaping?
2. Does VG not cause that to happen?
3. perhaps it was the brand of juice?
4. If it doesnt have that effect, I would like a new ecig because that little crappy battery powered one i have is quite poor - suggestions for a kit? Or if anyone has something fancy like one of them new screwdrivers I hear so much about or a Tornado which seems to be good or anything like that they want to sell cheap or perhaps there is a new one somewhere that is cheap they know of. basically....my poor ADD brain cant handle making a decision and its just gotten too complicated for someone who doesnt keep up with all the new models and terminology. and, most important, is there liquid out there that doesnt make you tired?!?! real cigarettes do not make me feel wiped out. they most definitely relax me but I do not yawn and feel like going to bed after smoking one. I really cant go back to smoking so......any help would be so very greatly appreciated : )

p.s. sorry for being so wordy and newbish (again)

 

[QueenInNC]

When I first started vaping, it made me SO tired. I have read a few other posts over the last year and a half saying the same thing. It didn't last very long and I have no explanation for it at all. I just wanted to let you know that I don't think you are losing your mind. lol

I don't think it has to do with PG vs VG either. I used both when I started vaping. I hope someone else will chime in to help.

Also, the Tornado/Riva/eGo would probably be a great device for you and the new low resistance atomizers are fantastic!

Good Luck!

 

[aphlaque_duck]

YES. I was utterly lethargic for the first two weeks that I was vaping, but I'm a manic depressive and just wrote it off as some kind of extended mood swing. I didn't change anything, it just suddenly passed and now I have very good energy levels.

 

[scheherezade]

I think this may be the lack of something that you get from tobacco cigs, but I'm not positive. I did go through this for a couple of weeks, but I went through the same thing when I tried a patch, the gum and cold turkey. My energy is actually pretty good now. I think it depends on the person though. I know someone who quit cold turkey that said she had the opposite problem, couldn't sleep at all for a couple of weeks.

 

[sanfordf]

It seems nicotine does both, relax and excite. You may be susceptible to one or the other at different times.

Nicotine acts on the nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, specifically the ganglion type nicotinic receptor and one CNS nicotinic receptor. The former is present in the adrenal medulla and elsewhere, while the latter is present in the central nervous system (CNS). In small concentrations, nicotine increases the activity of these receptors. Nicotine also has effects on a variety of other neurotransmitters through less direct mechanisms.

In CNS
By binding to nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, nicotine increases the levels of several neurotransmitters - acting as a sort of "volume control". It is thought that increased levels of dopamine in the reward circuits of the brain are responsible for the euphoria and relaxation and eventual addiction caused by nicotine consumption. Nicotine has a higher affinity for acetylcholine receptors in the brain than those in skeletal muscle, though at toxic doses it can induce contractions and respiratory paralysis.[16] Nicotine's selectivity is thought to be due to a particular amino acid difference on these receptor subtypes.[17]

Tobacco smoke contains the monoamine oxidase inhibitors harman, norharman,[18] anabasine, anatabine, and nornicotine. These compounds significantly decrease MAO activity in smokers.[18][19] MAO enzymes break down monoaminergic neurotransmitters such as dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin.

Chronic nicotine exposure via tobacco smoking up-regulates alpha4beta2* nAChR in cerebellum and brainstem regions[20][21] but not habenulopeduncular structures.[22] Alpha4beta2 and alpha6beta2 receptors, present in the ventral tegmental area, play a crucial role in mediating the reinforcement effects of nicotine.[23]

In SNS
Nicotine also activates the sympathetic nervous system,[24] acting via splanchnic nerves to the adrenal medulla, stimulates the release of epinephrine. Acetylcholine released by preganglionic sympathetic fibers of these nerves acts on nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, causing the release of epinephrine (and norepinephrine) into the bloodstream. Nicotine also has an affinity for melanin-containing tissues due to its precursor function in melanin synthesis or its irreversible binding of melanin and nicotine. This has been suggested to underlie the increased nicotine dependence and lower smoking cessation rates in darker pigmented individuals.[25]

In adrenal medulla
By binding to ganglion type nicotinic receptors in the adrenal medulla nicotine increases flow of adrenaline (epinephrine), a stimulating hormone. By binding to the receptors, it causes cell depolarization and an influx of calcium through voltage-gated calcium channels. Calcium triggers the exocytosis of chromaffin granules and thus the release of epinephrine (and norepinephrine) into the bloodstream. The release of epinephrine (adrenaline) causes an increase in heart rate, blood pressure and respiration, as well as higher blood glucose levels.[26]

And

Research suggests that, when smokers wish to achieve a stimulating effect, they take short quick puffs, which produce a low level of blood nicotine.[37] This stimulates nerve transmission. When they wish to relax, they take deep puffs, which produce a high level of blood nicotine, which depresses the passage of nerve impulses, producing a mild sedative effect. At low doses, nicotine potently enhances the actions of norepinephrine and dopamine in the brain, causing a drug effect typical of those of psychostimulants. At higher doses, nicotine enhances the effect of serotonin and opiate activity, producing a calming, pain-killing effect. Nicotine is unique in comparison to most drugs, as its profile changes from stimulant to sedative/pain killer in increasing dosages and use. (Another drug that behaves similarly is ethanol).

 

[Fudgeman]

Thanks all. I was hoping someone would say "oh thats because you were using ___ liquid" or something like that. The problem is that I have been vaping with moderate consistency for a year. Now mind you, I never smoked much. A few cigarettes a day - often one and sometimes none but I was still a regular smoker and for a very long time so its still reeeeeel bad for you obviously. I was vaping more frequently due to convenience and because it does not hit me nearly as hard as cigarettes - its different. At first I was extremely disappointed at how little vaping resembled the effects of smoking - then I realized the other effects must have been due to tar and carbon monoxide and all that other nasty stuff. doesnt change the fact that the effect from a cigarette was very pleasant and extremely relaxing for my wound up ADD self. So, I guess I just have to deal with it. thats a bummer. I really dont want to have to start drinking coffee just to be able to continue the vapidge.

Thanks much for the recommendation QueeninNC : )

Any other input would be very welcomed. thanks again all - goodnite! : )

 

[Fudgeman]

Sanfordf you are the man!!!! (As soon as I had posted my reply above, your post popped at the same time so I am replying to your post now).

That was absolutely fascinating. I knew about the dopamine issue. That is why it is so very rewarding to me. People with ADD have low levels of dopamine and my brain has been in turbo mode since I was but a wee chiddren. Adderal does wonders for me but I almost never take it because I know speed is not good for you. Same reason I managed to keep my tabacco smoking down to 2 packs a month(ish). Your response was even, dare I say, extra super duper interesting because now it makes me wonder if my MAO enzymes are in overdrive and perhaps that I might benefit from MAO inhibitors as I am so very calm when smoking and the resulting release throughout my musculature is such that (believe it or not) I will sometimes stretch after smoking because for once my body isnt holding so much &*#@%* tension. My brain isnt either - I'm much more focused and if I could maintain that state, I would have a much easier time getting things done in life. hell, I'd have a much easier time in life, period! lol : ) And, I bet my it would affect my libido as well if I took MAO inhibitors (can one take MAO inhibitors?). clearly I am monoamine oxidase-burdened individual

Thanks so much for that amazing post. I will now drive to CA and wash one half of your car - you get to pick the half : )

 

[CJsKee]

Hi Fudgeman and welcome back!

Yes, you can take MAOIs...however, before you check into that, can I suggest that you look here: Smokeless tobacco - E-Cigarette Forum. Many here on the forum use smokeless tobacco to supplement their vaping because of the fact that our e-cig liquid does not have all of the tobacco alkaloids that are found in tobacco. They have found that the smokeless tobacco is quite helpful in that area (MAOIs, etc.).

Good luck!

 

[mini_art]

People who quit smoking experience this lethargy even if they dont vape.
It is a side effect of quitting cigs.
Take a cruise on Google for all the wierd side effect of just quitting cigs.
There are many , including even acne! Short of breath, insomnia etc etc.

 

[me who]

Great topic guys, Initially I was so happy to finally quit smoking (after countless failed attempts) but I've been in a lethargic slump ever since. I was hoping that it would pass eventually but after a year I'm having serious doubts now. What to do? I've read the snus suggestions but would prefer some other alternative if possible. Recently I ran across this article which got my gears turning, has anyone considered or tried this?

SELEGILINE (l-deprenyl, ELDEPRYL, EMSAM)
A recent New York study showed that smokers had on average 40% less of the enzyme, monoamine oxidase type-B, in their brains than non-smokers. Levels returned to normal on their giving up smoking. Not merely is the extra dopamine in the synapses rewarding. The level of MAO-b inhibition smokers enjoy apparently contributes to their reduced incidence of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease. Unfortunately they are liable to die horribly and prematurely of other diseases first.

One option which the dopamine-craving nicotine addict might wish to explore is switching to the (relatively) selective MAO-b inhibitor selegiline, better known as l-deprenyl. Normally the brain's irreplaceable complement of 30-40 thousand odd dopaminergic cells tends to die off at around 13% per decade in adult life. Their death diminishes the quality and intensity of experience. It also saps what in more ontologically innocent times might have been called one's life-force. Eighty percent loss of dopamine neurons results in Parkinson's disease, often prefigured by depression. In future, the mood-enhancing transplantation of customized stem cells may restore a youthful zest for life in dopamine-depleted oldsters: such stem cell-derived monoaminergic grafts are currently on offer only to depressed rodents. Deprenyl has an anti-oxidant, immune-system-boosting and dopamine-cell-sparing effect. Its use boosts levels of tyrosine hydroxylase, growth hormone, superoxide dismutase and the production of key interleukins. Deprenyl offers protection against DNA damage and oxidative stress by hydroxyl and peroxyl radical trapping; and against excitotoxic damage from glutamate.

Whatever the full explanation, deprenyl-driven MAOI-users, unlike cigarette smokers, are likely to be around to enjoy its distinctive benefits for a long time to come, possibly longer than their drug-naïve contemporaries. For in low doses, deprenyl enhances life-expectancy, of rats at least, by 20% and more. It enhances drive, libido and motivation; sharpens cognitive performance both subjectively and on a range of objective tests; serves as a useful adjunct in the palliative treatment of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease; and makes you feel good too. It is used successfully to treat canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome (CDS) in dogs. At dosages of around 10 mg or below daily, deprenyl retains its selectivity for the type-B MAO iso-enzyme. At MAO-B-selective dosages, deprenyl doesn't provoke the "cheese-effect"; tyramine is also broken down by MAO type-A. Deprenyl isn't addictive, which probably reflects its different delivery-mechanism and delayed reward compared to inhaled tobacco smoke. In November 2004, Yale University researchers launched a study of deprenyl for smokers who want to quit tobacco. Whether the Government would welcome the billions of pounds of lost revenue and a swollen population of energetic non-taxpayers that a switch in people's MAOI habits might entail is unclear.

The Good Drug Guide: The Responsible Parent's Guide To Healthy Mood-Boosters For All The Family

 

[Fudgeman]

And once again - I cannot believe that you wrote this reply as I was JUST learning all about selegeline the night before last. I stayed up until 4 in the morning learning about MAO inhibitors and dopamine etc. I am definitely low dopamine guy. I dont know where I read this but a new selegiline patch has been released that, in its lowest dose, precludes the need to avoid tyramine containing foods and allows alcohol use. very exciting information as the more I read about selegiline, the more it seems to fit me. I also have read (or heard - maybe youtube?) that it is not covered by insurance and is very expensive. But the (potential) beauty is that if its a patch, I would see if getting the highest dose and cutting into smaller sizes is doable. Oh to be dopamine rich! : ) anyway, feel free to let me know if you find more info. I will PM you too.

 

[Vocalek]

Fudgeman: You never said what strength of nicotine you were using. When I first started, I was using the "high" strength, which is only 16 mg. I was struggling to maintain alertness and concentration. Then I learned that you can refill your carts and that liquid comes in higher strengths. I went up to 24 mg. and that pretty much solved the problem.

From your OP it sounds as if you weaned yourself down and off nicotine. And you also mentioned having ADD. Nicotine is being explored as a possible treatment for ADD, but the researchers are being forced to proceed with caution, keeping dosage low, because "nicotine is addictive." Like Adderal isn't addictive??? A company called Targacept is working on treatments that target the nicotinic receptors. It has two drugs for ADHA in Phase 2 clinical trials. I'm sure that these will be most expensive when the FDA approves them. Targacept: Biopharmaceutical Company - Product Pipeline

Personally, I find nicotine works just fine to keep my attention deficits under control, as long as I get enough of it. Using too little is like taking a baby aspirin for post-surgical pain.

Yes, selegiline is expensive and requires a prescription. Another drug used for treatment of cognitive problems is galantamine. The prescription brand names are Reminyl and Razadyne. Now the interesting thing is that galantamine is not a new chemical created in a lab. It is extracted from plants. The FDA tried to ban the supplement version. In the end, it was unable to do so because the supplement version was sold before the prescription drug came onto the market ("grandfathered in".) I found 8 mg. capsules on the internet for about $40 for 60. we sell serrapeptase, Can-C eye drops, piracetam, vinpocetine, galantamine, carnosine eye drops, picamilon, idebenone, pyritinol.

I take one or two capsules of the supplement version per day. My mother is taking two 8 mg. tablets of Razadine per day for Lewy Body Dementia. Retail price is $107.94 for 30 tablets. If she weren't on Medicaid, she wouldn't be able to afford this drug.

 

[Fudgeman]

thank you! what great and interesting info. I have different strength liquids. I have a max strenth (36 I think?) that I got when I first started because I was disappointed at how I didnt get that nice buzz right away. of course, thats me being poisoned by CO and all the other crap in cigarettes and my body releasing endorphins as a result. so I have some medium strength and the mac daddy and both make me very very tired. quite frustrating actually. anyway, that was fantastic info re: the ADD supplement - I greatly appreciate it! : )

 

[aphlaque_duck]

Perhaps I spoke too soon, because within just a couple days of my previous post I entered a "vape coma" of several days where I was super tired. As in, when I'm down the the flu I have more energy! Today I scaled WAAY back and I'm feeling better.

Too much nicotine seems likely, and it would not surprise me if I've developed a tolerance due to ratcheting up my liquid strengths, so that I no longer get the "upper" effect. I guess you have to stay at a low enough blood concentration that you are always bouncing off your minimum threshold for withdrawal symptoms. I.e. much as you would smoking analogs - those are self-limiting because there's only so many you can comfortably smoke, whereas with e-cigs the sky's the limit even if the absorbtion seems to be slower.

 

[vaplor]

Great information! Thank you for sharing it...very interesting and well worth investigating!

 

[jamesam1243]

Does not look that good to me!

PatientsLikeMe : Selegiline Treatment Report

James ( a grumpy old man )

========================

July 13 smoked 09 cigs, 31 less than my usual 40 cigs a day 2472 cigarettes not smoked in 71 days by using Stonewall, Joye 510, Hello 016, Ken's BoxMod, MadVapes 2xAA Box Mod, WetBox Vaporizer (ecig) and 19 bottles of ejuice partially used , $0.28 per cig X 2472 Cigs = $692.16 diverted from cigarettes to Vaporizer (ecig). I have spent over $1000 on this stuff but bare in mind that my old cigarette cost was $330 a month