Smoking Everywhere V. FDA Daily Docket Sheet Update--APPEAL's COURT ISSUES STAY

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D103

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Good summary rolygate. I agree with your vision of how things will likely "play out". It is sad and very frustrating but I think you are correct in your observations and once again 'Big Business' wins and the 'mere consumer' will have to "pay the freight" so to speak in terms of jacked up prices, unrealistic regulations, red tape (should be called $green-tape$) of every conceivable nature, etc. When it all "plays out" I may just have to become a "moon-shiner!!"
 

JerryRM

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This is an interesting course of events...I thought u all were talking about my ego.
I can say I have never seen egotistical post from sun...Jerryrm on the other hand hehe...

I saw that boxhead!!!!! I'm just doing my job as the Official Instigator! :p

No one appreciates the time and effort I have to put into it. 8-o :rolleyes: :D
 

D103

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Hey JerryRM I believe everyone knows that the Official Instigator is truly "ego-less" and the positon of Official Instigator is revered above and beyond all others. It is a position to which one is neither appointed nor elected but rather the result of a "calling". The Official Instigator (the 'OI') serves as keeper of the flame, protector of past, present and future, and Grand Bumper of all bumpers. I appreciate your presence.
 

JerryRM

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Hey JerryRM I believe everyone knows that the Official Instigator is truly "ego-less" and the positon of Official Instigator is revered above and beyond all others. It is a position to which one is neither appointed nor elected but rather the result of a "calling". The Official Instigator (the 'OI') serves as keeper of the flame, protector of past, present and future, and Grand Bumper of all bumpers. I appreciate your presence.

Thanks D103 !!! :) Actually I was appointed, after campaigning for the job, that's why the "Official" is in the title. Many times it is a thankless job, so I really appreciate it when someone, like yourself, acknowledges the hard work and dedication that I put into it !! :rolleyes: :D

It's just my small contribution, to the ECF !!! :thumb:
 
Today there was no filings with the Court. Only a couple of weeks left till the deadline for the FDA to file their Brief. Unless they file a Motion to Enlarge Time for filing.


Sun

Following this thread from page 1 and trying to learn about the complex legal processes involved (thanks Sun!) I am gathering that this could be a part of the ploy to hurt SE and njoy for as long as possible if they do indeed file a motion to enlarge time? Just trying to understand motives for each step of the process.
 

Sun Vaporer

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Following this thread from page 1 and trying to learn about the complex legal processes involved (thanks Sun!) I am gathering that this could be a part of the ploy to hurt SE and njoy for as long as possible if they do indeed file a motion to enlarge time? Just trying to understand motives for each step of the process.


Absolutly Charley--that would be the motive. Malice. A rank effort to drag this out and outlast SE and NJOY as time is hurting them if they can not get their orders in from China.

I worry more about SE then NJOY as NJOY has overseas operations and I do not know how much longer SE can hang in there. So you are on the right track Charley.

Sun
 

LoneRanger

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Hey JerryRM I believe everyone knows that the Official Instigator is truly "ego-less" and the positon of Official Instigator is revered above and beyond all others. It is a position to which one is neither appointed nor elected but rather the result of a "calling". The Official Instigator (the 'OI') serves as keeper of the flame, protector of past, present and future, and Grand Bumper of all bumpers. I appreciate your presence.
Also Truth,Justice and the American way!
 

Sun Vaporer

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@SLH
There are several other big players apart from SE and NJoy. Many of them are not seen on ECF as their primary market is the new user class of consumer, and ECF visitors are less likely to be their customers.

They tend to be cartomizer-style suppliers, and are successful because they employ good marketing strategies. There is a visible difference between them, and those we are more familiar with here - they employ marketing staff in various disciplines whereas companies here tend to limit their marketing costs. Each group has chosen a different market area.

They are arguably more successful because their profit margins are higher and the new user market is quite large, and growing fast. So, although SE and NJoy are well-known, they are not the only big guys out there. It's just that you won't see the others on ECF as they don't need to be here and it wouldn't benefit them in any case.

As you hint at, BT and BP cannot lose in this situation - it's a win-win for them. If ecigs are killed off, they win; if ecigs are beaten to the floor and have to comply with ridiculous medical regulations, BP wins since their expertise and cost of business in that field are going to be advantageous when 99.9% of ecig companies fold under that regime and can be bought out by BP; if ecigs are beaten to the floor and have to comply with excessive consumer regulations and therefore most ecig companies fold, then BT wins as they can step in and buy them up, bringing out their Marbora E-Cigarette when convenient.

Regulations can be changed at a later stage of course, by the injection of funding into the process. It's a shame that the ecig industry is not injecting funds itself at this critical stage. But ecig supply is basically a cottage industry with a handful of big players who are more interested in cutting each others' throats than cooperating to defeat the opposition.

Each believes that they can survive the onslaught and bounce back, whatever the regulatory climate, because they have the funds to do so. In some cases this is obviously true. It is an attractive commercial option because it means the government kills off all your rivals for you.

If that happens, there will be five or six big names left in business, and the rest of the industry will close up shop for a while. After a time, a massive underground supply system will start up for ecig parts and refills. It will become the new c o c a i n e, and be equally unstoppable but five times the size. Eventually a measurable percentage of the population will have been 'criminalized' and at that stage, change might be expected to take place.

.


Unfortunately, what Roly advances is true. This is a huge wall that we face and IMO the Courts are going to defer to the FDA on this one. Time will tell.

It is sad that more of the Medical profession does not jump on board here, but the Doctors I have talked to say it is hard to advocate for something when it might come back to bite them if testing shows issues we are not aware of. Again, I go back to the Manufactures as being the root of the problem here. They cashed in on a quick buck and never tried to negotiate anything. Remember that SE and NJOY are on Retailers. They do not make anything.

Sun
 

D103

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Today there was no filings with the Court. Only a couple of weeks left till the deadline for the FDA to file their Brief. Unless they file a Motion to Enlarge Time for filing.


Sun
Sun.....Please tell me this isn't so.....can they really file a motion to "Enlarge Time" for filing (that sounds like something only Stephen Hawking could do). And would this court actually grant something like that?
 

Sun Vaporer

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Sun.....Please tell me this isn't so.....can they really file a motion to "Enlarge Time" for filing (that sounds like something only Stephen Hawking could do). And would this court actually grant something like that?

D103--Yes--a Motion to Enlarge Time is quite often advanced and granted if it is the first time around as a matter of course---rubber stamped so to speak. I really do hope SE can hang in there.


Sun
 

trs-80

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Sun.....Please tell me this isn't so.....can they really file a motion to "Enlarge Time" for filing (that sounds like something only Stephen Hawking could do). And would this court actually grant something like that?
Hawking, hee hee thats a good one!! And the fda is a black hole that only hawking could understand.
 

Sun Vaporer

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Hawking, hee hee thats a good one!! And the fda is a black hole that only hawking could understand.

Trs-80--The FDA may well be a black hole, but just remember that their Counsel is paid to win and will advocate zealously to try to define the e-cig as a "drug" subject to being banned and a full approval process". Really is not looking out for our interests.


Sun
 

Sun Vaporer

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That's probably what's going to happen, SheerLuck. E-cigs are getting very popular, there's too much money to be made to just ban them.

As long as they can be taxed like cigarettes and they are made by BP or BT, they probably will get the ok from the FDA.

Just my opinion, folks.


It is indeed a tough call Jerry. You have excellent Counsel for SE and NJOY as well as the FDA. Counsel can not change the facts. And bad facts make bad law. We are stuck with the facts as they stand.


Sun
 

HKholer

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Sun, I respect what you are doing and thank you for all of it.

you said:
"Counsel can not change the facts."

This may be true, but they can lie their asses off. And in reading some of the stuff from the FDA on this case, they HAVE. Therein lies the rub. How to force the truth to the surface in the face of these powerful lawyers. The FDA lawyers are doing all they can to bury the real truth to win for their client. Their client is claiming junk that is just fat lies.

Judge Leon caught them in one. Where he said he didn't see any harm having been done by e-cig as the FDA claimed.

It seems unethical (to me) for the FDA attorneys to continue this charade when in 5 minutes reading they can see the real truth. Aren't attorneys bound by some code of ethics about lying to the court after they have learned they were wrong.

I don't know, I'm just a layman.
 

Sun Vaporer

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Sun, I respect what you are doing and thank you for all of it.

you said:
"Counsel can not change the facts."

This may be true, but they can lie their asses off. And in reading some of the stuff from the FDA on this case, they HAVE. Therein lies the rub. How to force the truth to the surface in the face of these powerful lawyers. The FDA lawyers are doing all they can to bury the real truth to win for their client. Their client is claiming junk that is just fat lies.

Judge Leon caught them in one. Where he said he didn't see any harm having been done by e-cig as the FDA claimed.

It seems unethical (to me) for the FDA attorneys to continue this charade when in 5 minutes reading they can see the real truth. Aren't attorneys bound by some code of ethics about lying to the court after they have learned they were wrong.

I don't know, I'm just a layman.


HK--I understand the frustration---anyone that cares about what is going on here is feeling it.

If there was any alleged fraud on the Court, it was perpetrated by the FDA, not Counsel. You will not find Counsel advancing fraud on the Court. Counsel will argue the facts given them. If the FDA did in fact fabricate those test results, it is for SE and NJOY to find out. No one in the pleadings actually ever came out and stated that the FDA study was some kind of shame.

Should they have? Well you need proof before you advance those kind of allegations and while there is much suspicion-- that will not make the grade.

So it really goes to finding out the truth with the FDA and not really Counsel. They take the facts as they find them.

Sun
 

HKholer

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Sun:

I understand, but no one will ever convince me that those FDA attorneys didn't know they were lying. And they will lie their asses off denying it too. It truly is sad that the American smoking public has been lied too all these years and now that we have found the 'Holy Grail' the lies continue. Sorry, I'm on my soap box again.
 

Our House

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No one in the pleadings actually ever came out and stated that the FDA study was some kind of shame.

Should they have? Well you need proof before you advance those kind of allegations and while there is much suspicion-- that will not make the grade.
Calling something a toxin when the detected amount is below the level of toxicity, and then hiding the level on your report, is a sham.

Calling something a carcinogen when the detected amount is below the level of carcinogenicity, and then hiding the level on your report, is a sham.

Running tests in parts per billion or parts per trillion when the standard for other products is parts per million, and then claiming the results to be equal, is a sham.

I mean if those aren't provably blatant lies, then nothing is!
 
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