Read this! Snuffed out - how to get regs wrong, and did pharma play a role?

[Falconeer]

Big Pharma wrote EU anti-vaping diktat, claims Tory ex-MEP

I commend this article, which is relevant to the topic here

 

[The Ocelot]

How did we not see this coming?​

 

[Bad Ninja]

Look, as a smoker, and someone passionate about individual rights, the FDA decision irks me. I'm torn, I support Big Tobacco as a smoker, and I think the government should .... out of people's personal lives, once an adult, warn, but at that point, people have to make their own decisions. I completely support vaping. Big Pharma had their hands all over this. Way more than Big Tobacco. I'd guess that big tobacco probably didn't have a role at all in this decision, it's just happens than it may benefit them in terms of causing their cigarette sales to go up. As a smoker, I'm fine with this. However, I am sad for vapers, because once again Big Pharma used hideous lies and misinformation about vaping to scaremonger.

Ok let me break it down like this. People need to chill about tobacco use. We all know the risks, we get it. Ok? I smoke and enjoy smoking. For me it's relaxing stimulating and clarifies and stimulates creative thought and relaxing. Sure there's risks, but lots of brilliant people have smoked in the past, and some really stupid people never touched it. In short, back off. Same for vaping. Many enjoy it, and if it helps them quit smoking, if that's their choice, great. Keeping it real though..you cannot equate tobacco use to vaping. False equivalency. Yea some e-juice has nicotine, but nicotine in and of itself (in form of vaping) has NOT been shown to have any risk, am I right? So if you vape, I'd suggest you keep hammering that point home to the nanny-state'ers.

Lastly, once again, this FDA decision should be no surprise. At the risk of getting political here, (because this is a political issue), Obama sealed the deal when he signed the tobacco legislation years ago. He's a big government, nanny-state apologist, just like Hillary Clinton. They don't care about individual rights except when it fits their agenda to pander to some of their various interest groups, which obviously includes Big Pharma. So just keeping it real, Obama had shown his preachy, authoritarian cards time and again so why should the fda decision be any different than his administration constantly talking down to and lecturing smokers. I for one am looking forward to the election and hoping for major change either with Bernie Sanders or Trump.

Both industries spend billions to lobby the Federal Government each year.


If you think both industries "didnt bother" to lobby for a favorable decision, you are naive.

 

[WharfRat1976]

My vendor of choice ran the figures. With just the liquid that he sells and all the different combinations of nic, pg and vg, it will cost him over 1 Billion dollars to apply for PMTA.

From my vendor: I just did some quick math... <snip vendor name out> currently has 87 flavors, 8 PG/VG ratio choices and 8 nic strengths. At 330K per submission, we would have to spend 1,837,440,000.00 to get all our flavors certified in all possible combinations. That did not include menthol or any specialty flavor choices like Heavenly Waffles...

I don't even want to think of what the cost per bottle would be handed down to the consumer.

Oh...but then they can just offer menthol and tobacco and one level of nic..maybe two.

Well damn, I just described a Big Tobacco product.

Yea Robino, I am shedding copious tears at the millions and millions of dollars the eliquid vendors have banked and will bank over the next two years.

NOT

(okay, I'm jealous)

 

[WharfRat1976]

Well, if anyone can use anti double speak to support an argument, you are proficient at it. I'll give you that much........................and little else.

DHHS is it's own intity as is DEA..............and the FDA is a Broken pile of corporate collusion.

You wish to debate FDA on Vaping bring it. As for Scissors cutting pennies.....that is for another forum

There is no First round in this Deeming as far as the FDA is concerned. It is HERE you GO, No changes planned in your favor.
Perhaps you have not bothered listening to Zeller. He is perfectly clear in his Words, his Tone and His Body language that the FDA will operate with impunity and what we prefer is irrelevant!

The problem is we cannot refute his posts. I mean we can refute them but our "facts" are just as baseless as his "facts".

I don't see any double speak in the OP's post. Can you point it out?

 

[crxess]

The problem is we cannot refute his posts. I mean we can refute them but our "facts" are just as baseless as his "facts".

I don't see any double speak in the OP's post. Can you point it out?

A use of Data not proven and or facts not in relation in order to deflect the attention of those taking an opposing stand on a matter.

But affecting business has little to do with it. I still stand that in once this is all settled we will have slightly higher priced products with known safety levels so we may adequately judge risk.

It cost money and man hours. Boo hoo. At $10 profit per 30ml bottle they dont have far to go to ensure they arent killing their users like big tobacco did for decades upon decades.

I do not support how far the regulations went on the first round but safety claims are largely conjecture at this point. Better safe than sorry. Everyone should want this to some extent.

Careful selection of wording can always drive a debate to ones corner and when done properly the opposing party has lost without even realizing.

As you just did.

Sure everyone wants Safe Product - Should the FDA be the sole dictator of this safety?
Sure Everyone agrees pricing will be higher - Should these prices = Cigarette Plus Sin TAX?

The Best if the Best is the Blind Statement - $10 Per 30ml bottle Profit<<<< At what Recovery Pricing? $300 Per Bottle retail? Perhaps $450?

Again, I have no Dog in this hunt. My Sword swings for the Future of other Vapers. Unless/until they come to arrest me, my future is secure.

Reasonable Regulation comes through Fair Compromise and Proven Science - Not Dictatorship.

Just on the side of Vapers:
What we have is 2 very opposing Groups and many middle ground individuals.
1) Those seeking -0- Regulation.
2) Those wishing for Government to Regulate every aspect of their lives to avoid making their own decisions.(It is called a Brain People - use it)
3) Those seeking reasonable Regulation for the people through Genuine Science Based Evidence.

Vapers as a part of the Tobacco Market - 0.1%

 

[dobroeutro]

Although I'm new to the forum, I'm retired with lots of time on my hands to read & investigate. I found this this paper "Bootleggers, Baptists and E-Cigarettes" by Bruce Yandle, Robert Meiners, Andrew Morris & Jonathan Adler very interesting. I hope you will too. After landing on the link, just click on "Open PDF in Browser" to read...

Oh well, musta done something wrong, "url has been removed". If you google it, it shows in the results...

skoony got me straightened out. Link works now...

 

[entropy1049]

I hate when people think there are super secret closed door meetings where "big pharma" and "big tobacco" meet with "FDA" and talk about how to stick it to the users. The fact of the matter is that it is much less convoluted. The FDA is responding to criticisms and concerns and the easiest route for them is to tie it all into tobacco because it is most similar to tobacco.

Wow. I literally couldn't disagree more. Have you ever heard of the US Government? I believe there is a facet of its operation you have failed to consider...

Lobbying - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's the Cliff's Notes version of how much money they spend on party favors for our elected representatives behind those closed door meetings you say don't happen:

http://www.who.int/tobacco/en/atlas24.pdf

Please do not fail to consider that there are a finite number of elected representatives upon whom to bestow these millions of dollars.

In the event you are merely trolling for laughs:

 

[B2L]

My vendor of choice ran the figures. With just the liquid that he sells and all the different combinations of nic, pg and vg, it will cost him over 1 Billion dollars to apply for PMTA.

From my vendor: I just did some quick math... <snip vendor name out> currently has 87 flavors, 8 PG/VG ratio choices and 8 nic strengths. At 330K per submission, we would have to spend 1,837,440,000.00 to get all our flavors certified in all possible combinations. That did not include menthol or any specialty flavor choices like Heavenly Waffles...

I don't even want to think of what the cost per bottle would be handed down to the consumer.

Oh...but then they can just offer menthol and tobacco and one level of nic..maybe two.

Well damn, I just described a Big Tobacco product.

That's actually just the start.

There is a section in the regs, can't place my eyes on it at the moment, that states that each possible permutation would have to be tested on each type of device it could be used in to verify no harm. Let's just say we break that down to cig alike, ego style, RTA and RBA that multiplies the tally X4. Now we're talking serious money

That's not taking into account the RTAs and RBAs can be built at .2 ohms, .3 ohms, .4 ohms and so on and so forth ad nauseum.

 

[Robino1]

The 'like' was just an acknowledgment. You are correct in the magnitude of the cost.

 

[skoony]

Oh well, musta done something wrong, "url has been removed". If you google it, it shows in the results...

5 posts or more to be able to post links.
Mike

 

[B2L]

The 'like' was just an acknowledgment. You are correct in the magnitude of the cost.

I understand, we need an "acknowledged but makes me nauseous" button

 

[dobroeutro]

5 posts or more to be able to post links.
Mike

Thanks for the heads up skoony...

 

[lulu836]

Among engineers, the 60s era NASA scientists and technicians were our "Greatest Generation

Small mistake there........the Greatest Generation was and still is the thousands of military personnel who fought and died in WWII.

If you smoke why are you in this conversation?

 

[rico942]

That's actually just the start.

There is a section in the regs, can't place my eyes on it at the moment, that states that each possible permutation would have to be tested on each type of device it could be used in to verify no harm. Let's just say we break that down to cig alike, ego style, RTA and RBA that multiplies the tally X4. Now we're talking serious money

That's not taking into account the RTAs and RBAs can be built at .2 ohms, .3 ohms, .4 ohms and so on and so forth ad nauseum.

Now we have a new definition for Continuous Random Variables ...

 

[crxess]

If you smoke why are you in this conversation?

Support?

I could care less if someone is a Smoker, Vaper or Never used either if they wish to participate and support our cause.

 

[B2L]

Now we have a new definition for Continuous Random Variables ...

Heard a radio interview with an FDA official where she called the regulations as written "foundational and flexible", that scares the hell out of me on many levels.

 

[rico942]

the Greatest Generation was and still is the thousands of military personnel who fought and died in WWII.

I could not agree more, my own father and two of my uncles among them ...

 

[bigdancehawk]

Think Chantix and Wellbutrin. Also mentioned above, the drugs they push to treat cancer, emphysema, bronchitis, pneumonia, asthma, obesity (can't exercise when you can't breathe) etc.... the list is endless.

BP knows how to get smoking cessation products approved. The deeming regs impose an approval process which is very much like the process for getting drugs and other pharmaceutical products approved. The regs are tailor made for BP. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if a pharmaceutical company came up with an electronic cigarette in the near future.

 

[crxess]

BP knows how to get smoking cessation products approved. The deeming regs impose an approval process which is very much like the process for getting drugs and other pharmaceutical products approved. The regs are tailor made for BP. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if a pharmaceutical company came up with an electronic cigarette in the near future.

OTC