So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[four2109]

Bare knuckle syndrome, huh? ....

Thanks TV. I've tried to keep up on this thread.. as well as one can! Not enough participation though or maybe I would have gotten a sample!
Fascinating info. I was in my Doc's office the other day, for other things, visibly depressed, He doesn't get it. Asked if I needed "something to get me through" the season. Like I could just take something for a week of two... then stop. I would rather smoke than get on that band wagon.
I think tomorrow I'll order some snus, then go to Walmart and smell the smokers. That always reinforces my commitment!

 

[four2109]

42109, you're in good company here...
...Granted the Swedish has more punch, but the American might be enough and it will at least let you know where you are. Any relief is better than no relief especially if its right down the road.

Thanks Vaporer, I think I'll get some tomorrow, just to have. The 36 is helping right now, but everytime I think my nic is too high, I drop it and it goes too low, and I would like to get on with life. And then there is that "motivation" TV mentioned!!!! Sure miss that! Thanks

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Thanks TV. I've tried to keep up on this thread.. as well as one can! Not enough participation though or maybe I would have gotten a sample!
Fascinating info. I was in my Doc's office the other day, for other things, visibly depressed, He doesn't get it. Asked if I needed "something to get me through" the season. Like I could just take something for a week of two... then stop. I would rather smoke than get on that band wagon.
I think tomorrow I'll order some snus, then go to Walmart and smell the smokers. That always reinforces my commitment!

Thanks Vaporer, I think I'll get some tomorrow, just to have. The 36 is helping right now, but everytime I think my nic is too high, I drop it and it goes too low, and I would like to get on with life. And then there is that "motivation" TV mentioned!!!! Sure miss that! Thanks

As Vaporer says, you're in good company. We've all been on the same road. Like you, I'd rather smoke then deal with the effects of antidepressants. But, at least now we know the problem and can pursue a better route for getting it .

 

[four2109]

I wish I had asked him what he would reccomend! And could I just take that "for awhile"?They are so anxious to prescribe drugs. But oh, no, don't use tobacco!

 

[DVap]

Great series of data, I like the attention to perfection

Looking at your table, is the criterion actually minimum solvent per mg alkaloids
(with a minimum sensible yield) ?
I'm assuming that the high cost of 'residue' or 'hplc' grade solvent make this so.

Seems to me you get best results (with above criterion) at 50ml + 40ml,
i.e. 120 mg alkaloids for 90 ml solvent = 1.33 mg per ml solvent,
rather than 150ml + 40ml i.e. 174mg for 190ml solvent = 0.9 mg per ml.

Assuming the tobacco is vastly cheaper than the solvent, presumably
you can waste some tobacco (alkaloids) rather than use 'excess' solvent ?

Is 40 ml the miniumum 'treatment' volume, or could you do 3 x 30 ml ?

Does the emulsion get less of a problem with larger volumes of solvent,
or is it a constant quantity ?

Questions, questions, as always

The criterion was eye-balling it and figuring that total recovery should carry a premium since getting more recovery equals making more liquid. 40 mL appears to be the volume that will completely soak in and refuse to come out. One might be able to do 80 + 40 + 40 for an 87% recovery. I've not run it fully to ground as I've been rushing about lately.

The emulsions aren't too terrible a problem for me, so I've not really paid them that much attention before working on this... I can shotgun the problem with a strongly salted solution, so that's the direction I've gone.

 

[exogenesis]

OK, thanks for the update, I guess there'd be an outcry if you
didn't get as much alkaloids as possible per batch

There's extraction effecieny & cost effeciency tho,
but I also guess any amount of WTA+ is worth paying whatever it costs

Santa might be bringing me an extra new year pressie of that inexpensive
Soxhlet extraction set - if he's got any money left after the Christmas
(thanks for the link puscifer).

 

[Quinn]

Over 30 years of smoking the nastiest, harshest tobacco out there and I enjoyed it all.

I'm a Camel Straight smoker and just found out about e-cigs, could you recomend a complete system or tell me what you use?

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I'm a Camel Straight smoker and just found out about e-cigs, could you recomend a complete system or tell me what you use?

Hi, Quinn. Welcome to ECF where friends and information abound . Your question is a good one and very legitimate. Unfortunately, I'm afraid I'm at a loss for a good answer due to my own inability to find a truely satisfactory set-up. Your best bet would be to post here: New Members Forum - e-cigarette-forum.com • The place for electronic cigarette reviews, news and chat. Introduce yourself and your concerns and there will be many willing to give you some insight based on their own experiences, including several ex-Camel smokers. Good luck and glad you're aboard .

 

[TropicalBob]

Vaporer and others: I'm convinced I'm getting smoke in my vapor!

I've been using WTA exclusively for some time now, along with the experiment of vaping a soaked piece of little cigar. Both produce copious clouds that drift and linger. Both have a distinct taste of tobacco. Both have aroma.

I think it's particulates I'm seeing in the exhaled vapor/smoke. Now, I'm not about to jump off the Empire State Building because of that, but it should be a concern. We presently use a drug concoction (no doubt in MY mind about that) that is "pure" as far as particulates go. When I use a true tobacco source for vapor, I get a different exhalation.

If the court says we're a drug, then the future rests with tobacco-based vaporizing devices, like the forthcoming Ploom and those from Big Tobacco. And if smoke is even a part of what we exhale, then public use will be forbidden under No Smoking regulations.

I've seen tests on the drug vapor. I'd love to see tests on the tobacco-based vapor.

P.S. It is, of course, not necessary for something to burn to get smoke. Pour oil on a hot burner and you might get no flames but enough smoke to summon the volunteer fire department!

 

[a2dcovert]

Vaporer and others: I'm convinced I'm getting smoke in my vapor!

I've been using WTA exclusively for some time now, along with the experiment of vaping a soaked piece of little cigar. Both produce copious clouds that drift and linger. Both have a distinct taste of tobacco. Both have aroma.

I think it's particulates I'm seeing in the exhaled vapor/smoke. Now, I'm not about to jump off the Empire State Building because of that, but it should be a concern. We presently use a drug concoction (no doubt in MY mind about that) that is "pure" as far as particulates go. When I use a true tobacco source for vapor, I get a different exhalation.

If the court says we're a drug, then the future rests with tobacco-based vaporizing devices, like the forthcoming Ploom and those from Big Tobacco. And if smoke is even a part of what we exhale, then public use will be forbidden under No Smoking regulations.

I've seen tests on the drug vapor. I'd love to see tests on the tobacco-based vapor.

P.S. It is, of course, not necessary for something to burn to get smoke. Pour oil on a hot burner and you might get no flames but enough smoke to summon the volunteer fire department!

So, have we come full circle? Do we have a chance of harm reduction with WTA? I guess we will be forced to stand side-by-side with the smokers to vaporize our tobacco?

 

[TropicalBob]

I'm a little concerned about that, too. More from the standpoint of spiking up our claim of harm reduction. No doubt, vaporizing tobacco or tobacco-based WTA liquid is better than sucking in smoke, but what if we're sucking in some components of tobacco smoke?

I snus in public, BTW. And use Stonewall after eating out. E-smoking is mostly at home and in my car.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Not to mention that "smoke" was why we quit smoking. Hmmm, perplexing. Since, I think, DVap has lost interest in the "pink tinge" project, maybe he's ready to tackle another inquisition. Let's see....fulltime job, new wife, WTA recipe....mmm, yeah, he'll probably be getting bored soon .

And congratulations, TB. I see you've been nominated for "Forum Contributor Of The Year". A cash prize would be nice .

 

[a2dcovert]

I'm thankful that you guys introduced me to snus. It looks like my days of vaporing at work in my office may be ending. I'm already not open with it, I conceal my vaping. I hope that following the ban someone does a harm study on second hand vapor. Of course parts per million will be made to appear to be significant and we won't stand a chance. Gee, what a bummer of a thought.

 

[DVap]

more news.. I've got a front to back "first run" of the WTA procedure, but not all is rosey.

I was shooting for 30 mg using the preliminary titration of the un-concentrated alkaloids, and the result for the final liquid turned out to be 25 mg WTA, so not too far off.

I'm not used to working with this stuff at such a small volume of isolated alkaloids, and it's making the back-end steps tough.. instead of a distinct volume of liquid, it ends up more like a film on the surface of the glass. The alkaloids are there alright, but honestly, it's cloudy and tastes like sickly-sweet burnt-...... Possibly due to the less cleaned-up nature of this stuff compared to the full out procedure? Maybe the NAS organic isn't as good versus the NAS dark blue label? Or maybe the shotgun approach I've taken to some of the cleanup steps to prevent emusions is taking a toll? I wish I knew.

In short, this stuff doesn't meet my standards and expectations. Taking into account the work and materials to get ~5 mL of WTA liquid, I've got to get a new idea... and it will have to start with a bigger extraction (maybe 60 grams), this is too much work for too little return.

I don't give up easily, but step by stepping this is turning out to be a tough challenge. I think I need to clear my head for a few days and come back to it when I'm not frustrated.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I don't give up easily, but step by stepping this is turning out to be a tough challenge. I think I need to clear my head for a few days and come back to it when I'm not frustrated.

That's well understood, DVap. And, though I'm sure my standards vary from yours, the amount of work and materials versus harvest reaped doesn't sound promising . A head clearing may uncover a hidden key. And, by the way, "sickly-sweet burnt-..." is nothing to write home about, but not to be frowned upon, either .

 

[four2109]

Bought some Camel snus tonight, to try. Too sweet and juicy I thought, don't want to swallow that much. So I twisted it into a 3ML bottle of the juice I was using... Any luck with this method?

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Naw. The guys found it adds some flavor, but that's about it. None of the goodies we're after. Sounds like you may have used the Camel Mellow....yucky, sweet's an understatement for me.

 

[TropicalBob]

Take your time, DVap.

I grew up in the house immediately next door to Thomas Edison's winter home in Fort Myers. I spent many hours in his lab when I was a child. He was a "driven" inventor, who tried anything and kept meticulous notes of his failures. "Invention," he said, "is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration."

That's true for the work you're undertaking. Hang in there -- and hope for inspiration to make your perspiration fruitful.

 

[Madame Psychosis]

I don't give up easily, but step by stepping this is turning out to be a tough challenge. I think I need to clear my head for a few days and come back to it when I'm not frustrated.

This is enormously exciting work, DVap, and some of us are standing by ready to trial it to the letter of instruction.

But as you know -- and as I learned from being raised by a physicist -- science (well, all enquiry) doesn't work in a linear or steady progression, and time away can allow for that kind of mental relaxation and roundabout nonthinking that makes invention possible.
Not to mention you have ample personal reason to spend time away from this for a bit and relieve your frustration.

I didn't want to speak up until I had read the entire thread from top to bottom, and that took a while as graduate school is taking up my reading attention. But this is much too interesting to pass up.

The short version of my background is that I started smoking for "psychiatric" reasons and it probably saved my life. Various health issues (childhood cancer, subsequent PTSD [three words: repeated, coercive, unanesthetized], then recurrent major depression) have given me a layman's interest in pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics. Addiction in loved ones has given me an interest in the mechanisms of tolerance and dependence, too. I'm no special snowflake -- we all step in s*** on the road of life, many much worse than I have, my s*** just has diagnostic labels, and I'd like to make the best of it by learning as much as I can.

I take an MAOI. The high-dose, old-school stuff, with the special diet and Medic-Alert bracelet and all that. (The newer antidepressants, SSRI/SNRI/NDRIs, didn't work much or for long. Yes, all of them.)

Interestingly, after about two days on the MAOI, cigarettes began to pack a punch. Every cig felt like the first one of the day. Dizzying, etc. It let me (well, forced me to) halve my use from 10-15 a day to 4-6 cigarettes a day.
I was already aware of the MAO inhibitor action of tobacco. (It's weaker than the pharmaceutical MAOIs, though.) I'd kind of wondered if taking an MAOI might also help me quit smoking, actually, by providing what I was getting from tobacco, minus the nicotine.

So I've been trying a PV for about six weeks. A few days in, I was down to 2 cigarettes a day. Great! Lovely! These things are amazing! The hand-to-mouth action was soothing and important to switching, too.

Then by week two, I'd tried cutting out all tobacco... and the symptoms just started returning. Depression, anxiety, insomnia, foggy brain, etc. I was actually in denial for a while that it was tobacco withdrawal, because the self-selecting nature of this forum's crowd means so many here rave about how easy the switch is.
Cigs now taste unpleasant and feel less powerful, but I can't stave off these withdrawals. And too much nicotine (vaping over 12mg/ml for me) is a whopper on my CNS.

The point?
PVs and pure nicotine don't have the same full-body buzz, relaxation, and effect that tobacco has, as we know. And it turns out it doesn't substitute perfectly.... even on an MAOI. Or so my experience would indicate for me personally. There's something else there. The alkaloids may be acting in a different area of the brain, or more likely having other non-MAOI action, especially on GABA.

I'm here to find out what those missing pieces are, and how I can get them. This is important. Thanks to all of you for your discussion so far, and to DVap and TB for their experimentation work.
(Apologies for the long autobio. post. )

 

[whimzkool]

Then by week two... the symptoms started returning. Depression, anxiety, insomnia. Cigs now taste unpleasant and feel less powerful, but I can't stave off these withdrawals. Too much nicotine (over 12mg/ml for me) is a whopper on my CNS.

Another willing Guinea Pig, DVap, been following along with interest.

I know what you mean Madame, I fall in that category with low nic/high MAOI addiction/tolerance. Guess I might attribute much of that to 20+ years of antidepressants. Anything more than 15 mg nic and I get super anxious. My jaw will get incredibly tight, which just aggravates my TMJ. At least, for now, I do get a measure of relaxation with the Passiflora extract. It does relax my jaws and shoulders at least. I suspect I might not get the same effect if I were still on the Rx meds. However, I am feeling a bit deflated as I, too, had high hopes at first. Now I just groan at the money I've spent, guess I'll continue to spike it with the passion flower. Cigs really taste nastier than ever now.